ALPHA Tuning development - 645whp and over 600tq!!!

[RingMeister01]

Awesome work Martin

[CFisher]

Originally Posted by AMS ALPHA

I just checked the graphs you linked to, I only see one with RPM rev out to 6200 rpm, I don't see one to 7000 rpm, maybe I'm missing a link?

Looking at your dyno graphs that are plotted vs. speed these are all done in 5th gear it looks like, hitting the Speed limiter just under 155mph on all the runs (which is 6200rpm in 5th). Our dyno graph in 5th gear cut off at 6200rpm does not drop off either

I just did some more runs on the M5 and tweaked the tune a bit. Brought in a little more boost down low (more torque) and tried to run more boost up top, and it just won't. i can log requested boost by the ECU and see that at around 5500 rpm the actual boost can't maintain what the ECU is requesting. The turbochargers are maxed out at this point.

We made some more power in 4th gear with the newest tune I did, and I ran the car in 5th gear because the car will make more power under more load, which it did. Anyways I'm still tweaking it and finally back on the ECU (I haven't had time since i was tuning a few cars for a race this weekend, about 3800hp combined between 2 cars!). Will keep you all posted on the results.

Martin Musial

R&D...what R&D? When will you be able to flash our cars over wifi or at least Bluetooth? Will you replace our engine if we step down too fast? Good Lord.
Truth be told, AMS is not 10 minutes from me and I thought with all the discussion lately I'd stop by their place last week. As it turned out, I couldn't get there until Friday at almost 5:00 and they were wrapping up for the day - but still were perfectly willing to chat for a few minutes and offer up a complete tour of the facility on a day when there was more time. Not a fly-by-night operation by any stretch. Like Brick and Mortar real deal in my opinion. Kudos to AMS for pushing the envelope.

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by CFisher

R&D...what R&D? When will you be able to flash our cars over wifi or at least Bluetooth? Will you replace our engine if we step down too fast? Good Lord.
Truth be told, AMS is not 10 minutes from me and I thought with all the discussion lately I'd stop by their place last week. As it turned out, I couldn't get there until Friday at almost 5:00 and they were wrapping up for the day - but still were perfectly willing to chat for a few minutes and offer up a complete tour of the facility on a day when there was more time. Not a fly-by-night operation by any stretch. Like Brick and Mortar real deal in my opinion. Kudos to AMS for pushing the envelope.

Good to hear someone speaking positively about AMS..I'm certain they will produce a great result.

[Timberwolf]

Originally Posted by AMS ALPHA

I just checked the graphs you linked to, I only see one with RPM rev out to 6200 rpm, I don't see one to 7000 rpm, maybe I'm missing a link?

Looking at your dyno graphs that are plotted vs. speed these are all done in 5th gear it looks like, hitting the Speed limiter just under 155mph on all the runs (which is 6200rpm in 5th). Our dyno graph in 5th gear cut off at 6200rpm does not drop off either

I just did some more runs on the M5 and tweaked the tune a bit. Brought in a little more boost down low (more torque) and tried to run more boost up top, and it just won't. i can log requested boost by the ECU and see that at around 5500 rpm the actual boost can't maintain what the ECU is requesting. The turbochargers are maxed out at this point.

We made some more power in 4th gear with the newest tune I did, and I ran the car in 5th gear because the car will make more power under more load, which it did. Anyways I'm still tweaking it and finally back on the ECU (I haven't had time since i was tuning a few cars for a race this weekend, about 3800hp combined between 2 cars!). Will keep you all posted on the results.

Martin Musial

The only runs we did in 4th gear were with just the JB3 on nothing else. After that we only ran 5th for the better ratio. I looked more closely at your runs and I love the bump in torque in the mid range. Exciting stuff. Looking forward to the bigger turbo setup!

[AstonMartian777]

+ 1 on turbos, I can't wait.

[MCarsFan]

With the bigger turbos.. gonna have to run much wider tires..otherwise it's going to be a mess !!

[AMS ALPHA]

Getting better! Martin is hard at work trying to maximize things while keeping everything happy

Blue line is stock, red line is the latest tune...all on 93 octane. We have to take a break for a bit as Martin needs to get to Florida for the 1/2 mile event with our 2000+ whp GT-R but he is going to jump right back on this when he gets back.

Eric

[AstonMartian777]

Originally Posted by AMS ALPHA

Getting better! Martin is hard at work trying to maximize things while keeping everything happy

Blue line is stock, red line is the latest tune...all on 93 octane. We have to take a break for a bit as Martin needs to get to Florida for the 1/2 mile event with our 2000+ whp GT-R but he is going to jump right back on this when he gets back.

Eric

That's with mods ? Great numbers !!! Will we get few more hp out of racefuel ?

[AMS ALPHA]

Originally Posted by AstonMartian777

That's with mods ? Great numbers !!! Will we get few more hp out of racefuel ?

Yes, but only from adding some more timing. Boost is about as high as its going to go.

Eric

[Sharif507]

Originally Posted by AMS ALPHA

Getting better! Martin is hard at work trying to maximize things while keeping everything happy

Blue line is stock, red line is the latest tune...all on 93 octane. We have to take a break for a bit as Martin needs to get to Florida for the 1/2 mile event with our 2000+ whp GT-R but he is going to jump right back on this when he gets back.

Eric

wow, i love this graph, cant wait for this to be perfect so i can put in my order. how long for the turbo upgrade to be tuned.. this is amazing, great work!!!

[AstonMartian777]

Originally Posted by AMS ALPHA

Yes, but only from adding some more timing. Boost is about as high as its going to go.

Eric

So why can't we use meth for that ?

[Leveraged Sellout]

Originally Posted by AstonMartian777

So why can't we use meth for that ?

I think he's answered this a few times now -

1. Meth isn't a safe way to just pile on more boost, even if you can. You can of course do it, if your turbos have the capacity, but it's not safe or reliable.

2. The turbos have no boost left in them at all at these power levels. Turbos don't just magically blow as much boost as you want...they have a limit due to the housing, the shape of the turbine, the shape of the outlet, etc. The stock ones seem to be tapped out around here. You could throw all the meth you'd like at it, you're not really getting anymore power out of the stock units.

[IANNUZZI]

If you look at the last dyno chart above vs their initial one on page1, you will see about a 40whp increase at 6700rpm as well as most of the upper range where full throttle runs will benefit. If they could smooth it out a little more all the way to redline, there may not be an urgent need on pump for upgraded turbos at this boost pressure for us powerfreaks

Ams, can we get a psi:rpm chart?

[AstonMartian777]

Originally Posted by Leveraged Sellout

I think he's answered this a few times now -

1. Meth isn't a safe way to just pile on more boost, even if you can. You can of course do it, if your turbos have the capacity, but it's not safe or reliable.

2. The turbos have no boost left in them at all at these power levels. Turbos don't just magically blow as much boost as you want...they have a limit due to the housing, the shape of the turbine, the shape of the outlet, etc. The stock ones seem to be tapped out around here. You could throw all the meth you'd like at it, you're not really getting anymore power out of the stock units.

I understand that but if racegas will work, how is meth any different ? It will also add more HP from much better timing, what do you need a failsafe here for ? It makes absolutely no sense to me, i never said anything about adding boost here

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by AstonMartian777

I understand that but if racegas will work, how is meth any different ? It will also add more HP from much better timing, what do you need a failsafe here for ? It makes absolutely no sense to me, i never said anything about adding boost here

Excuse my ignorance here, but isn't meth injected via a separate system than the factory fuel injectors and fuel pumps?

Racegas is just a higher octane fuel that still uses the fuelling system the DME controls. Meaning that all fail safe systems are in place if some component should fail. Just like as when you run on street fuel.

With meth you introduce a separate fuelling system the DME doesn't control. If that fails there are no fail safe systems in the DME to activate to save the engine. Engine failure is more likely when you introduce that kind of thing. The same with NOS as well I guess. Many use it and with good results and reliability, but if the NOS system fails the consequences can be catastrophic... I can understand why a tuner doesn't want to run that risk by offering a meth option out of the doors.

[AstonMartian777]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Excuse my ignorance here, but isn't meth injected via a separate system than the factory fuel injectors and fuel pumps?

Racegas is just a higher octane fuel that still uses the fuelling system the DME controls. Meaning that all fail safe systems are in place if some component should fail. Just like as when you run on street fuel.

With meth you introduce a separate fuelling system the DME doesn't control. If that fails there are no fail safe systems in the DME to activate to save the engine. Engine failure is more likely when you introduce that kind of thing. The same with NOS as well I guess. Many use it and with good results and reliability, but if the NOS system fails the consequences can be catastrophic... I can understand why a tuner doesn't want to run that risk by offering a meth option out of the doors.

OMG, YES if you're depending on meth, meaning if you're running boost higher than what the engine can handle without that extra fueling, for example you're running +6 psi on meth with fail safe set at +3.5 psi, at the moment of lets say pump fail the failsafe is supposed to turn your boost down to +3.5 psi, and if it doesn't your engine will detonate but if your meth is running at boost levels that engine can handle without the extra fueling, in this example it would be +3.5 psi, how can it do any damage ? The benefit would be better timing from meth as an alternative to racegas. Maybe I'm not understanding something ?

[allmotor_2000]

Great progress - it's area under the torque curve that will translate to acceleration. If that torque drop up top can be eliminated (larger turbos probably), this car will be a beast!

Anything over 550 in the 3K range is too much and not fun to drive in this RWD setup on stock rubber.

[M5Rlz]

Maybe this has been asked in the last seven pages but now that we're about to breach 700wtq/hp and upgraded turbos are in play... How is the STOCK trans/ internals handling this level of power... One thing to be in the 600s with it pulling power at the limiter, another thing now that the cat is out of the proverbial bag tuning wise.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by 335iRlz

Maybe this has been asked in the last seven pages but now that we're about to breach 700wtq/hp and upgraded turbos are in play... How is the STOCK trans/ internals handling this level of power... One thing to be in the 600s with it pulling power at the limiter, another thing now that the cat is out of the proverbial bag tuning wise.

Good point. And these question has been asked several times, but non of tuners answered yet. Everybody knows the DCT on current M5/M6 is GETRAG 7DCI700 and the maximum torque is rated to 700 NM (516 lb-ft). Considering Germans are conservative ,10-15% underrated still we are at less than 600 lb-ft torque input and probably 600-650 HP power input...Isn't this much tuning harmful for a DD car that is supposed to be pushed to the limit SOMETIMES (ie LC or hard acceleration) and run +100k miles in 5-6 years?

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Good point. And these question has been asked several times, but non of tuners answered yet. Everybody knows the DCT on current M5/M6 is GETRAG 7DCI700 and the maximum torque is rated to 700 NM (516 lb-ft). Considering Germans are conservative ,10-15% underrated still we are at less than 600 lb-ft torque input and probably 600-650 HP power input...Isn't this much tuning harmful for a DD car that is supposed to be pushed to the limit SOMETIMES (ie LC or hard acceleration) and run +100k miles in 5-6 years?

I agree..there are going to be some power train issues, no question. I remember the issue BMW had with the 335i power kit on the previous E90.. BMW were never concerned about the power increase on the motor but the power train...

[M-bitious]

I have been running the Leib tune with 647 rwhp (750 crank) and 935Nm without any issues for months. However I have the feeling that a lot more torque will give issues with the clutch slipping and the tranny. I also wonder how driveable the car will be with more power. We are at the limit of what a rear wheel drive car can put down. For a M5 with over 800 crank and 950Nm we will be needing hardware modifications, perhaps even on the engine.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by AMS ALPHA

Getting better! Martin is hard at work trying to maximize things while keeping everything happy

Blue line is stock, red line is the latest tune...all on 93 octane. We have to take a break for a bit as Martin needs to get to Florida for the 1/2 mile event with our 2000+ whp GT-R but he is going to jump right back on this when he gets back.

Eric

Could you please post the SAE, uncorrected and conditions for this latest run .
Thanks!