Next-gen V10 M5?

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by elitex

I was thinking about going a different route in the next few years. If V10 makes a comeback then I am definitely buying another M5. Hope you're listening BMW. TTV10, make sure to make it sound decent.

I agree too, but for me if they make the chassis too much bigger, I'm out. I can't take the size of these BMW 5-Series anymore. Almost feels too big for me most of the time, like I'm walking up to a 7-Series. The E60 and F80 are the perfect size for someone who loves Sedans and doesn't have a family, like me.

What I'd really like is a sedan, with a size a smidge bigger than the F80, with the weight of the F80 and all of the luxuriousness and technology appointments of the M5. So I'm talking 3,500lbs with soft close doors, power close trunk, front and rear ventilated seats, active front seats, and all that crap, but with the power of the M5 and handling of the M3. RWD for me of course, but optional AWD for those who want/need it.

[greentrbo95gst]

What about a 3600cc V6 with the tri-turbo and a hybrid mode?
If the rumor is true then maybe a 3 liter v10 with twin turbo, high reving engine.

[thebishman]

No way they will revert to a NA V10; fuel economy and CO2 requirements have doomed this configuration IMHO. Hope I'm wrong. A TT V6 with AWD and hybrid power with huge combined output, the ability to drive 10-20 miles on electric power alone, etc just makes more sense at this time.
Bish

[04S]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

I agree too, but for me if they make the chassis too much bigger, I'm out. I can't take the size of these BMW 5-Series anymore. Almost feels too big for me most of the time, like I'm walking up to a 7-Series. The E60 and F80 are the perfect size for someone who loves Sedans and doesn't have a family, like me.

What I'd really like is a sedan, with a size a smidge bigger than the F80, with the weight of the F80 and all of the luxuriousness and technology appointments of the M5. So I'm talking 3,500lbs with soft close doors, power close trunk, front and rear ventilated seats, active front seats, and all that crap, but with the power of the M5 and handling of the M3. RWD for me of course, but optional AWD for those who want/need it.

I think you seek the M4 Gran Coupe .....

[JOHNBMWM5]

Just a pipe dream.

[Spinny02]

Originally Posted by JOHNBMWM5

Just a pipe dream.

V-10, twin turbo, electric assist, awd option and carbon fiber body. That's my pipe dream.

[dhirm5]

If they do electric assist, it would be part of the "i" line -- I don't see hybrid power trains coming out of //M - not in the near term anyway.

Maybe in the future we see - what? //Mi5? i//M5?

I don't know - I'm not quite ready for a hybrid m5.

[Hockey Guy]

Originally Posted by dhirm5

If they do electric assist, it would be part of the "i" line -- I don't see hybrid power trains coming out of //M - not in the near term anyway.

Maybe in the future we see - what? //Mi5? i//M5?

I don't know - I'm not quite ready for a hybrid m5.

If Porsche buyers get it (Panamera Turbo S and 911 Turbo S), Ferrari, McLaren, Acura (NSX), Bugatti etc... and given that M needs to future proof the 2018 version for another 7 years (2025!), I don't see how M can ignore it. Use it or be run over! There will be a lot of i in M in the not too distant future. Not a bad thing at all when you see the performance of Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche hypercars.

[Hockey Guy]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

I agree too, but for me if they make the chassis too much bigger, I'm out. I can't take the size of these BMW 5-Series anymore. Almost feels too big for me most of the time, like I'm walking up to a 7-Series. The E60 and F80 are the perfect size for someone who loves Sedans and doesn't have a family, like me.

What I'd really like is a sedan, with a size a smidge bigger than the F80, with the weight of the F80 and all of the luxuriousness and technology appointments of the M5. So I'm talking 3,500lbs with soft close doors, power close trunk, front and rear ventilated seats, active front seats, and all that crap, but with the power of the M5 and handling of the M3. RWD for me of course, but optional AWD for those who want/need it.

True dat (especially on the size)! I don't think there is any way to get a modern M5 down to 3,500 lbs (that would require the most radical innovation in M's history I think), but 700HP V-10 TT with hybrid for low-RPM torque and 4,000 lbs would be just fine for me. Of course, sub 4,000 would be nirvana.

The competition is getting so strong in this segment, M will need to do something very special and not just tweak an anniversary edition by 25-40 HP.

[mainly]

if its got turbos again, it wont matter if its a v100. it will still suck.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Hockey Guy

True dat (especially on the size)! I don't think there is any way to get a modern M5 down to 3,500 lbs (that would require the most radical innovation in M's history I think), but 700HP V-10 TT with hybrid for low-RPM torque and 4,000 lbs would be just fine for me. Of course, sub 4,000 would be nirvana.

The competition is getting so strong in this segment, M will need to do something very special and not just tweak an anniversary edition by 25-40 HP.

It's totally possible and there is a company that has already done it. Cadillac. The CTS-V Sport is sub 4,000lbs and is essentially the same size as the F10 chassis and uses NO Carbon Fiber. Instead Cadillac makes extensive use of aluminum in the CTS-V Sport's construction. Just look at the giddy smile on Carlos's face as he drives a 420hp sub 4,000lbs sedan around on a track. The F10 M5 is not heavy because of it's size per say, but is so heavy because there is so much steel in the chassis. Steel is strong but heavy. the F80/F82 makes use of a lot more aluminum than the F10 M5, maybe that's one of the reasons for the diversion of chassis codes too.

I have high hopes for the next M5 and we've already heard that they have plans for drastic weight reduction. In the next generation 35up G-Series BMW's, I've read that we can expect a an average weight reduction of 200lbs across the entire line up of BMW's due to use of CFRP thanks to the BMW i program. For the M cars, I expect weight reduction will be significantly more. With less weight comes better fuel economy and with the combined cycle from the BMW i Program I think CAFE standards can be met even if future M cars go back to more cylinders in their engines, but that's highly speculative at this point. One thing I know for sure though is that whatever engine is in the next M5/M6 and M3/M4 those engines will be more fuel efficient than today's S63tu and S55 engines regardless of cylinder count.

[Hockey Guy]

To: mainly (two up)...All of autodom is moving toward forced induction. No way around it. It could be full electric and autonomous (wait, that's coming too). Pick your poison! Sorry your experience has been so bad. I really like my TT (especially with the dual clutch tranny), just needs more raw noise.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by mainly

if its got turbos again, it wont matter if its a v100. it will still suck.

Yep, and that's why Underground Racing Twin Turbo Lamborghini Gallardo V10's suck too.

[Hockey Guy]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

It's totally possible and there is a company that has already done it. Cadillac. The CTS-V Sport is sub 4,000lbs and is essentially the same size as the F10 chassis and uses NO Carbon Fiber. Instead Cadillac makes extensive use of aluminum in the CTS-V Sport's construction. Just look at the giddy smile on Carlos's face as he drives a 420hp sub 4,000lbs sedan around on a track. The F10 M5 is not heavy because of it's size per say, but is so heavy because there is so much steel in the chassis. Steel is strong but heavy. the F80/F82 makes use of a lot more aluminum than the F10 M5, maybe that's one of the reasons for the diversion of chassis codes too.

I have high hopes for the next M5 and we've already heard that they have plans for drastic weight reduction. In the next generation 35up G-Series BMW's, I've read that we can expect a an average weight reduction of 200lbs across the entire line up of BMW's due to use of CFRP thanks to the BMW i program. For the M cars, I expect weight reduction will be significantly more. With less weight comes better fuel economy and with the combined cycle from the BMW i Program I think CAFE standards can be met even if future M cars go back to more cylinders in their engines, but that's highly speculative at this point. One thing I know for sure though is that whatever engine is in the next M5/M6 and M3/M4 those engines will be more fuel efficient than today's S63tu and S55 engines regardless of cylinder count.

i would love to be pleasantly surprised!

What makes me wonder is: if M could not even get 10% weight reduction with the latest M3/4, how will they get 18% with the next-gen M5 (down to 3,600 lbs)? They could probably get there if they really wanted to, but with the loss of which amenities and would the cost/car jump prohibitively? Would we all pay (guessing) 30% more for that car?

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Hockey Guy

i would love to be pleasantly surprised!

What makes me wonder is: if M could not even get 10% weight reduction with the latest M3/4, how will they get 18% with the next-gen M5 (down to 3,600 lbs)? They could probably get there if they really wanted to, but with the loss of which amenities and would the cost/car jump prohibitively? Would we all pay (guessing) 30% more for that car?

Nah, I know they won't get the next Gxx M5 down to 3,600lbs, that's asking too much. If they can just get it below 4,000lbs we are totally in business though. I believe that the next M5/M6 will make use of a lot more carbon fiber bits than the F8x M3/M4. We're talking Carbon Fiber Drive Shaft, Carbon Fiber Trunk lid, Carbon Fiber strut braces, and Carbon Fiber Roof just for starters on the next M5. EPS will save more weight, and we all know it's coming for the next M5/M6 too, don't kid yourself. Fully aluminum door panels, hood, and suspension components will bring the weight down even more drastically. Then there is the chassis itself which I think BMW will use a lot of aluminum for the next M5/M6. One thing we haven't seen from any car manufacturer yet, with the exception of one car in existence sort of, is a full carbon fiber tub design for a 4-door sedan. The BMW i3 is the only thing that comes close. Cars like the McLaren 12C and BMW i8 already use a Carbon Fiber tub but are only two seater cars. If someone could design and manufacturer CF tub design for a 4-door sedan cheaper than today's costs, we could see dramatic reduction in weights. This is my idea though, so you heard it here first.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

The F10 M5 is not heavy because of it's size per say, but is so heavy because there is so much steel in the chassis. Steel is strong but heavy. the F80/F82 makes use of a lot more aluminum than the F10 M5, maybe that's one of the reasons for the diversion of chassis codes too.

Actually there is no steel chassis! The body works like chassis and that's why they call it unibody! Also almost all of the rear suspension components are aluminum! The reason M5 is heavy is the size of body and too many luxury options that add the weight because of DC motors or stuff like this. As an example the M6 GC is 175 lb heavier than M6 Coupe (according to BMWNA) with just 4" longer and two more doors that adds a lot components!
M3/M4 on the other hand are lighter because the body is smaller, some CF stuff (roof, drive shaft,...) Smaller engine and have a lot less luxury options to save the weight and make them cheaper...

[soooma]

Dearmers!!!

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Actually there is no steel chassis! The body works like chassis and that's why they call it unibody! Also almost all of the rear suspension components are aluminum! The reason M5 is heavy is the size of body and too many luxury options that add the weight because of DC motors or stuff like this. As an example the M6 GC is 175 lb heavier than M6 Coupe (according to BMWNA) with just 4" longer and two more doors that adds a lot components!
M3/M4 on the other hand are lighter because the body is smaller, some CF stuff (roof, drive shaft,...) Smaller engine and have a lot less luxury options to save the weight and make them cheaper...

Ok maybe you are right, but I'm pretty sure the doors, hood, roof, and trunk are not all aluminum? And I know the suspension components on the M5 are steel. Yes I understand that a lot of the simple components on the M3/M4 are what makes them lighter too. Like no motors for the unadjustable headrests on the front seats, non-adjustable backseat headrests too, and no foldout arm rest for the back seat either. But the CTS-V Sport has all of these things and a lot of luxury appointments like the 5-series does, although the engine in the CTS-V Sport is a lot lighter than the V8 M5 engine.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Ok maybe you are right, but I'm pretty sure the doors, hood, roof, and trunk are not all aluminum? And I know the suspension components on the M5 are steel.

In M6 (and probably M5) doors, hood are aluminum. trunk and front fenders are plastic...
I'm not sure about the roof in M5, but as you know M3/M4/M6 are CF
According to suspension, sub-frame and most of the components except springs are aluminum. The components inside the differential are made in steel but the housing is aluminum and I know it for sure! If you doubt, I will PM you the reason

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

In M6 (and probably M5) doors, hood are aluminum. trunk and front fenders are plastic...
I'm not sure about the roof in M5, but as you know M3/M4/M6 are CF
According to suspension, sub-frame and most of the components except springs are aluminum. The components inside the differential are made in steel but the housing is aluminum and I know it for sure! If you doubt, I will PM you the reason

Ok, I'll trust you on this one, but me riddle me this Batman. The M6 Gran Coupe is slightly heavier than the F10 M5, yet the F10 M5 has the power close trunk and the M6 Gran Coupe does not, also the M6 Gran Coupe has a huge Carbon Fiber roof, so why then is it heavier?

[dhirm5]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Ok, I'll trust you on this one, but me riddle me this Batman. The M6 Gran Coupe is slightly heavier than the F10 M5, yet the F10 M5 has the power close trunk and the M6 Gran Coupe does not, also the M6 Gran Coupe has a huge Carbon Fiber roof, so why then is it heavier?

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by dhirm5

Textbook answer sir.