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      10-20-2014, 06:32 PM   #1
Bottch77
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Dinan stage 2 recent update. WOW!

As many of you know Dinan recently came out with an update for the stage 2. I first saw the announcement on Oct 10th.

I thought I wouldn't be able to tell the difference but I figured what the heck: install it anyway. So... I scheduled the appointment and had the update installed today. I don't know what Dinan did here; but wow!! On paper the numbers do not look like much. What I can tell you is that it seems like this update transformed the car again. Singnificantly. I got in the car after the update and as soon as I hit the road and opened things up a little; what an amazing difference. Smooth additional power that continues to amaze.

To those of you who haven't done it yet; my advice would be to schedule the appointment. Well worth it!

Here is the info from Dinan for anyone who missed it:


For those of you that have the DINANTRONICS Performance Tuner we just released an update for your vehicles that gives you a bit more power. It's free to you and all you have to do is contact your local Dinan dealer and schedule an appointment. The website and charts have been updated with the new information if you want a more in depth look but the simple breakdown of the power increases can be found below...

F10 M5 & F06/12/13 M6 (Stage 1)
Old Performance Numbers: 652 HP, 631 lb-ft of torque
New Performance Numbers: 680 HP, 644 lb-ft of torque

F10 M5 (Stage 2)
Old Performance Numbers: 675 HP, 644 lb-ft of torque
New Performance Numbers: 693 HP, 651 lb-ft of torque

F10 M5 & F06/12/13 M6 Competition Package (Stage 1)
Old Performance Numbers: 666 HP, 634 lb-ft of torque
New Performance Numbers: 695 HP, 644 lb-ft of torque

F10 M5 Competition Package (Stage 2)
Old Performance Numbers: 689 HP, 644 lb-ft of torque
New Performance Numbers: 708 HP, 651 lb-ft of torque
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      10-21-2014, 08:41 AM   #2
Tom C
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It should also be noted that Dinan claims that the Competition Package equipped stock M5 is making 633hp/567tq.

http://dinancars.com/webresources/im...51f414bf6d.jpg

So you need to really look at the delta (change).
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      10-21-2014, 09:14 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom C View Post
It should also be noted that Dinan claims that the Competition Package equipped stock M5 is making 633hp/567tq.

http://dinancars.com/webresources/im...51f414bf6d.jpg

So you need to really look at the delta (change).
I would like to see true dyno numbers as for rwhp before and after. Looking at their numbers looks like they are going with a 18% drive train loss.

My stock M5 did 548 whp and 525 peak wtrq.

They claim stock crank hp 633 which would be 537 whp and stock peak crank torque 577 which would be 489 peak wtrq.

As you come up with their equations as they claim crank hp with a 18% drivetrain loss
this is what I believe would be their whp and wtrq peak figures.

600 whp @ 1.18% drivetrain loss= 708
552 peak wtrq @ 1.18% drivetrain loss= 651

also that is with their intake and exhaust. So to me that's not much of a gain when you add all those other products to final power numbers.
It might feel better and more powerful but the true test will be a before and after dyno with just the tune, and then taking it to the track for some times to see what it will do.

Just trying to give some insight on their data claims and wanting to see some forum members with their before and after results.

G
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      10-21-2014, 09:21 AM   #4
shahano
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What is the difference between the stage 1 and stage 2 package?
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      10-21-2014, 11:08 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast View Post
I would like to see true dyno numbers as for rwhp before and after. Looking at their numbers looks like they are going with a 18% drive train loss.

My stock M5 did 548 whp and 525 peak wtrq.

They claim stock crank hp 633 which would be 537 whp and stock peak crank torque 577 which would be 489 peak wtrq.

As you come up with their equations as they claim crank hp with a 18% drivetrain loss
this is what I believe would be their whp and wtrq peak figures.

600 whp @ 1.18% drivetrain loss= 708
552 peak wtrq @ 1.18% drivetrain loss= 651

also that is with their intake and exhaust. So to me that's not much of a gain when you add all those other products to final power numbers.
It might feel better and more powerful but the true test will be a before and after dyno with just the tune, and then taking it to the track for some times to see what it will do.

Just trying to give some insight on their data claims and wanting to see some forum members with their before and after results.

G
Figured I would re-post this here since it comes up over and over again. In fact we will be posting some video of our dyno procedures and the math behind it in the near future so you can see visually exactly what we do and the methodology behind it. In the meantime the below quote was a response from a month or so ago relating to the drivetrain loss question. For those that don't like to read reasoning behind things you can simply skip to the last paragraph.

"Like most OE's, we publish our crank numbers, not wheel horsepower numbers, simply to keep things as accurate as possible. Dinan tests multiple cars with multiple runs and averages them so no one chassis dyno test would be representative. When we compare our engine Dyno Data to our chassis dyno data we find that most if not all chassis dynos, including ours, overstates the lower RPM torque values. Our chassis dyno does not do a coast down for inertia and friction corrections. If we are using the chassis dyno once we have performed multiple Chassis dyno runs and averaged them we apply different correction factors to each RPM to correct for these inflated torque numbers. All this is done to ensure the most accurate reporting to our customers. We list both Stock and Dinan numbers using the same corrections to ensure the comparison is fair. If we are using the Engine Dyno the data is just averaged over multiple runs to get a fair average performance. With both the engine dyno and chassis dyno we ensure the room is as close to standard weather conditions as possible and all dyno runs are performed in the same weather window to ensure comparisons are fair. In most cases Dinan Dyno numbers will be lower than those you will get at low RPM because of the inaccuracy at low RPM previously mentioned. Also in most cases Dinan's numbers will be higher at hi RPM because of the work we do to ensure proper heat exchanging that we find almost no one else does.

A few years ago, we put together a really in-depth article on our dyno process and how even slight variables can affect the outcome of any test.
http://dinancars.com/dinan-university/ - (Dynamometer Testing and The Modern BMW Engine)

It's a long article, but it gives you a really detailed looks at the process with a conclusion that has a good breakdown of what we covered. The most accurate thing we can say is that we've observed over 36 years of tuning, with most models we've tested, that the drivetrain loss is between 6.5 and 15 percent (most current cars typically cap out in the 12-13% range) but It’s not as simple as a straight percentage, as it varies on car, transmission, RPM, vehicle speed and a myriad of other variables."
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      10-21-2014, 01:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering View Post
Figured I would re-post this here since it comes up over and over again. In fact we will be posting some video of our dyno procedures and the math behind it in the near future so you can see visually exactly what we do and the methodology behind it. In the meantime the below quote was a response from a month or so ago relating to the drivetrain loss question. For those that don't like to read reasoning behind things you can simply skip to the last paragraph.

"Like most OE's, we publish our crank numbers, not wheel horsepower numbers, simply to keep things as accurate as possible. Dinan tests multiple cars with multiple runs and averages them so no one chassis dyno test would be representative. When we compare our engine Dyno Data to our chassis dyno data we find that most if not all chassis dynos, including ours, overstates the lower RPM torque values. Our chassis dyno does not do a coast down for inertia and friction corrections. If we are using the chassis dyno once we have performed multiple Chassis dyno runs and averaged them we apply different correction factors to each RPM to correct for these inflated torque numbers. All this is done to ensure the most accurate reporting to our customers. We list both Stock and Dinan numbers using the same corrections to ensure the comparison is fair. If we are using the Engine Dyno the data is just averaged over multiple runs to get a fair average performance. With both the engine dyno and chassis dyno we ensure the room is as close to standard weather conditions as possible and all dyno runs are performed in the same weather window to ensure comparisons are fair. In most cases Dinan Dyno numbers will be lower than those you will get at low RPM because of the inaccuracy at low RPM previously mentioned. Also in most cases Dinan's numbers will be higher at hi RPM because of the work we do to ensure proper heat exchanging that we find almost no one else does.

A few years ago, we put together a really in-depth article on our dyno process and how even slight variables can affect the outcome of any test.
http://dinancars.com/dinan-university/ - (Dynamometer Testing and The Modern BMW Engine)

It's a long article, but it gives you a really detailed looks at the process with a conclusion that has a good breakdown of what we covered. The most accurate thing we can say is that we've observed over 36 years of tuning, with most models we've tested, that the drivetrain loss is between 6.5 and 15 percent (most current cars typically cap out in the 12-13% range) but It’s not as simple as a straight percentage, as it varies on car, transmission, RPM, vehicle speed and a myriad of other variables."
I understand what you're saying but I feel for most of us who use Dyno jet is a great reference to compare before and after runs do to the similarities in Dyno and performance numbers.

For example everyone is making about the same power stock give or take do to Dyno jet figures. So If someone Dynos a BMS and a Dinan tune we can see realistic gains. I know Dyno doesn't tell the whole story that's why i track and Vbox as well and that includes before and after runs.

So for me to give some kind of light on your numbers even though I might not be on par with your real data I feel having Dyno jet Vbox and track times will help show a better understanding of product performance for all of us.

The numbers sound great but sometimes the hidden details are not given till other types of data are given.

Anyway would love to see how the stage 2 performs on a Dyno jet Vbox and track for some great comparisons.

Thanks again for the info!

G
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      10-22-2014, 09:22 PM   #7
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Yo

Pulling up a chair, grabbing some popcorn, beer and taking off my hat for the next results and testing.
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      10-30-2014, 03:41 PM   #8
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I feel that telling customers "crank" figures is a prudent marketing tactic or buffer, so to speak, as they know the average M5 owner isn't going to pull his motor out, and engine dyno it. I understand why auto manufacturers do it, but a tuning company should speak in our language which is wheel hp. I find it somewhat off putting, and patronizing to speak in "crank" terms since we enthusiasts can't verify the claims. Just my 2 cents.
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      10-30-2014, 05:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast View Post
Anyway would love to see how the stage 2 performs on a Dyno jet Vbox and track for some great comparisons.
I have provided Vbox data that shows a 4mph gain in trap speed from stock to Stage 2 on my 2013 M5 with the latest Dinan update.

At this website
I get 504 whp / 547 bhp with a 4300lb car and 120mph trap speed which is my car stock.

With the latest update I have 124.3mph trap speed and that gives

560whp / 608bhp for about a 10% gain in wheel horsepower.

The Wallace Racing site gives 595hp for 120mph and 4300lb with a gain of 66hp to 661.8 for 124.3mph. I assume these to be rated in bhp.

I think this discussion will go on without end though because it's not really possible to be objective due to the fact that the numbers are dependent on so many different conditions and factors that just cannot be held constant across the sample space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf View Post
I feel that telling customers "crank" figures is a prudent marketing tactic or buffer, so to speak, as they know the average M5 owner isn't going to pull his motor out, and engine dyno it. I understand why auto manufacturers do it, but a tuning company should speak in our language which is wheel hp. I find it somewhat off putting, and patronizing to speak in "crank" terms since we enthusiasts can't verify the claims. Just my 2 cents.
The Dyno data is subject to the same irregularities as is anything else. Using a Dyno isn't much better than using these estimators if you ask me. Unless you can measure the same car under the same conditions with the two different mods then you really don't have an objective comparison. In my view, trap speed is the best determinant of the efficacy of a mod.
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      10-31-2014, 01:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrsbmw View Post
I have provided Vbox data that shows a 4mph gain in trap speed from stock to Stage 2 on my 2013 M5 with the latest Dinan update.

At this website
I get 504 whp / 547 bhp with a 4300lb car and 120mph trap speed which is my car stock.

With the latest update I have 124.3mph trap speed and that gives

560whp / 608bhp for about a 10% gain in wheel horsepower.

The Wallace Racing site gives 595hp for 120mph and 4300lb with a gain of 66hp to 661.8 for 124.3mph. I assume these to be rated in bhp.

I think this discussion will go on without end though because it's not really possible to be objective due to the fact that the numbers are dependent on so many different conditions and factors that just cannot be held constant across the sample space.



The Dyno data is subject to the same irregularities as is anything else. Using a Dyno isn't much better than using these estimators if you ask me. Unless you can measure the same car under the same conditions with the two different mods then you really don't have an objective comparison. In my view, trap speed is the best determinant of the efficacy of a mod.
The dyno establishes a hypothesis which trap speed and vbox runs will back up. None alone tells the whole story. You get plenty of wheel spin and a botched 60' and your mph can go up but your ET suffers. That's why all of these sources of data help. I just feel that offering data in a crank format is worthless to us end users. That's my point.
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      10-31-2014, 02:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf View Post
The dyno establishes a hypothesis which trap speed and vbox runs will back up. None alone tells the whole story. You get plenty of wheel spin and a botched 60' and your mph can go up but your ET suffers. That's why all of these sources of data help. I just feel that offering data in a crank format is worthless to us end users. That's my point.
I agree, but again most people aren't buying this car to win local races [like some of us haha]. They're going to brag to their friends that they have a [insert high crank number] at the golf club while they try to get the cocktail stain out of their cardigan .

I still think we've had enough trusted users post positive results with the tune that its certainly worth considering even given the massive price difference between it and BMS.
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