Question of the day: how much horsepower is enough?

[RPiM5]

So I ran across this yesterday. Pretty interesting and I like the way Andreas is thinking too. BMW seems to be going in a similar direction with it's M cars too, albeit turbocharged. With the newest M3/M4 getting only an 11hp bump according to the factory, and the upcoming M2 getting "only" 365hp, is the horsepower war coming to an end? I like the way Andreas puts it: "For my personal tastes, around 500bhp is enough, because 700-800bhp calls for bigger brakes, sturdier suspension, it gets heavier and heavier logically,’" and "There are plenty of dragsters on the market, big V8, twin turbo – boom, off you go. But [they] don’t turn."

Will the general masses be disappointed if future M cars don't get a whole lot more horsepower but continue to weigh less and less?

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-new...wer-arms-race/

I'll add this new video here too, which I think portrays the future of BMW ///M as well.

[Phatcat]

Well, a lighter weight car is no new science and many manufacturers have talked about it, but seldom happens. The new X series was suppose to be lighter, but turns out not really. One major problem is that while the chassis was lightened, but more safety features or luxury equipments were added, so often the new cars ended up not any lighter.

Hopefully the new tougher emission laws and higher milage requirements will push the car makers towards making not only more efficient (engine) cars, but also lighter cars.

[bobblehead]

if the next gen M5 rumors to have mid 600hp, lose about 100+ lbs and improved fuel efficiency, then it's already a giant leap for me. A car can have 800hp+ but it weighs like an elephant, what's the point ?

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by bobblehead

if the next gen M5 rumors to have mid 600hp, lose about 100+ lbs and improved fuel efficiency, then it's already a giant leap for me. A car can have 800hp+ but it weighs like an elephant, what's the point ?

True, but a PostMember on this very forum (I won't name who but it wasn't me) got into a very impromptu street acceleration competition with his tuned F10 M5 against a Tesla Model S P85D and although the Tesla weighs in at over 4,900lbs, said members tuned F10 M5 could not keep up with it. True story.

[MCarsFan]

Big hp needs AWD..or it's simply a mess..

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

Big hp needs AWD..or it's simply a mess..

Well, not necessarily. It just needs to be rear weight bias.
McLaren 650s with 640 HP is not AWD. Ferrari 488 GTB with 670 HP is not AWD.
Both are rear (mid) mounted engine
Even front mounted engine Ferrari F12 (46/54 weight distribution) with 740 HP is not AWD.

[IshR]

I would prefer future M models to maintain current horse power and get lighter rather then get more powerful and more heavy.

Reason being lighter cars corner and brake better.

Also if you look at the mclaren f1 I think that has like 600bhp and only weighs around 1000kg and from the below video it appears to be faster than the veyron (1000bhp) until they go over 240kph (150mph).

Ok then veyron trumps it, but still closer then I expected.

[IshR]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Well, not necessarily. It just needs to be rear weight bias.
McLaren 650s with 640 HP is not AWD. Ferrari 488 GTB with 670 HP is not AWD.
Both are rear (mid) mounted engine
Even front mounted engine Ferrari F12 (46/54 weight distribution) with 740 HP is not AWD.

Agree

[PawnStar]

Just came off an intense racing curriculum in a F2000 formula car. With 160 hp. Seemed just enough that I could comfortably handle without kissing tire or cement walls.

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Well, not necessarily. It just needs to be rear weight bias.
McLaren 650s with 640 HP is not AWD. Ferrari 488 GTB with 670 HP is not AWD.
Both are rear (mid) mounted engine
Even front mounted engine Ferrari F12 (46/54 weight distribution) with 740 HP is not AWD.

While I agree these are great cars and you're right about rear weight bias.. I was thinking more about the 911 TTS and it's excellent handling characteristics due to having the ability to get power down effectively through its AWD system..

My experience has been massive torque and massive hp is difficult to put down quickly- I switched to 305 tires to try and solve this issue.. I would have gone wider if I had aftermarket wheels.

I think the next M5 might be AWD.. Tragic for purists but to handle more hp gains it might be seen as the best alternative.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by IshR

I would prefer future M models to maintain current horse power and get lighter rather then get more powerful and more heavy.

Reason being lighter cars corner and brake better.

Also if you look at the mclaren f1 I think that has like 600bhp and only weighs around 1000kg and from the below video it appears to be faster than the veyron (1000bhp) until they go over 240kph (150mph).

Ok then veyron trumps it, but still closer then I expected.

Agree completely.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

While I agree these are great cars and you're right about rear weight bias.. I was thinking more about the 911 TTS and it's excellent handling characteristics due to having the ability to get power down effectively through its AWD system..

My experience has been massive torque and massive hp is difficult to put down quickly- I switched to 305 tires to try and solve this issue.. I would have gone wider if I had aftermarket wheels.

I think the next M5 might be AWD.. Tragic for purists but to handle more hp gains it might be seen as the best alternative.

I think it's almost a forgone conclusion that M5 will be AWD for the next generation or at least offer a version of it.

AWD is simply more practical, better in the rain, and helps owners (which I bet most are not expert car drivers) deal with the HP.

The question is, what will the weight be?

[MyF15+F85]

In my view the Hp stand point will increase ever so slowly just to prove to the customer that the next model will be faster and more efficient, that is simple effective marketing .
There is no number that you can throw ( HP ) and that this is " enough " no such thing in my view....
For M5 the next thing is going to be AWD for sure and the CP will be the entry level for the market ( HP wise ) .
The next thing will be hybrid version ( next gen M5 ) that will add more power, and will blow all the previous models away.
There is nothing that we can do to stop it ( I kind of like it ) BMW going agains MB, and soon Lexus ( in my view ).
IT is all good, future seems to be very interesting indeed.

Sorry about being all over with the write up, just ideas shooting in my head...

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by MyFten

In my view the Hp stand point will increase ever so slowly just to prove to the customer that the next model will be faster and more efficient, that is simple effective marketing .
There is no number that you can throw ( HP ) and that this is " enough " no such thing in my view....
For M5 the next thing is going to be AWD for sure and the CP will be the entry level for the market ( HP wise ) .
The next thing will be hybrid version ( next gen M5 ) that will add more power, and will blow all the previous models away.
There is nothing that we can do to stop it ( I kind of like it ) BMW going agains MB, and soon Lexus ( in my view ).
IT is all good, future seems to be very interesting indeed.

Sorry about being all over with the write up, just ideas shooting in my head...

I honestly wouldn't mind if ///M developed the next M5 with only 600hp (versus the 640hp already present in the new 2016 CTS-V and not to mention the 30 Jahr F10 M5), if they delivered on 2 things, substantially lighter weight (under 4,000lbs) and an engine that is at least 8 cylinder or 10 cylinders.

I agree with Andreas's philosophy and we can already see the dividends the F80 M3 is paying out with all of the newer competition coming out with heavier weights. Dropping weight is far more difficult than adding horsepower but it pays out better for performance in every area.

[AshDrivesMs]

Originally Posted by IshR

I would prefer future M models to maintain current horse power and get lighter rather then get more powerful and more heavy.

Reason being lighter cars corner and brake better.

Same here. Tons of useless HP is the AMG way.

[Spinny02]

Bring on the 1000hp awd version.... I also would go with wt savings over hp. 650-700is a good area for such a large limo. Just need to shed 4-500 lbs

[gmfive]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

I honestly wouldn't mind if ///M developed the next M5 with only 600hp (versus the 640hp already present in the new 2016 CTS-V and not to mention the 30 Jahr F10 M5), if they delivered on 2 things, substantially lighter weight (under 4,000lbs) and an engine that is at least 8 cylinder or 10 cylinders.

I agree with Andreas's philosophy and we can already see the dividends the F80 M3 is paying out with all of the newer competition coming out with heavier weights. Dropping weight is far more difficult than adding horsepower but it pays out better for performance in every area.

Is there a current non-electric 4-door car with similar specs: 600hp, 3000-3500lbs, rwd?

Agree wholeheartedly, that is a very worthy goal for the M5. It might need some more innovation in material science for us to have such a package at a reasonable cost $150-200k but it seems doable within the next 5 years.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by gmfive

Is there a current non-electric 4-door car with similar specs: 600hp, 3000-3500lbs, rwd?

Agree wholeheartedly, that is a very worthy goal for the M5. It might need some more innovation in material science for us to have such a package at a reasonable cost $150-200k but we seems doable within the next 5 years.

Exactly. With BMW leading the way with Carbon Fiber production, the new 7-Series is now the first regular BMW to benefit from the lightweight Carbon Core design. The next 5-Series will be even lighter. I don't see why in 4 or 5 years Carbon Fiber production will be to the point where the next generation M5 can benefit from a massive amount carbon fiber parts and lightweight aluminum components. I really believe that in 4 years a BMW M5 under 4,000lbs is absolutely possible. They just better not F up the engine. Lol!

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

While I agree these are great cars and you're right about rear weight bias.. I was thinking more about the 911 TTS and it's excellent handling characteristics due to having the ability to get power down effectively through its AWD system..

My experience has been massive torque and massive hp is difficult to put down quickly- I switched to 305 tires to try and solve this issue.. I would have gone wider if I had aftermarket wheels.

I think the next M5 might be AWD.. Tragic for purists but to handle more hp gains it might be seen as the best alternative.

I'm at he same boat you are. Suffering from traction issue and that's why both of us have 305 on rear but not satisfied yet.
McLaren MP4 is a lot lighter (~1000 lb) and has almost the same power (while less torque) we have but mid engine. No traction issue (or a little compare to M5/M6) and great handling. No need to AWD.
I wish the next M6 has 600-650 HP, 3800-3900 lb, 4-5" shorter (length) and slightly rear bias (45/55 - 47/53) weight distribution...It's not something impossible... 300-400 lb weight shaving is not a big deal... transaxle config + front-mid engine is a perfect solution... something like AMG GTS platform.

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

I'm at he same boat you are. Suffering from traction issue and that's why both of us have 305 on rear but not satisfied yet.
McLaren MP4 is a lot lighter (~1000 lb) and has almost the same power (while less torque) we have but mid engine. No traction issue (or a little compare to M5/M6) and great handling. No need to AWD.
I wish the next M6 has 600-650 HP, 3800-3900 lb, 4-5" shorter (length) and slightly (45/55 - 47/53) weight distribution...It's not something impossible... 300-400 lb weight shaving is not a big deal... transaxle config + front-mid engine is a perfect solution... something like AMG GTS platform.

It would be such an awesome development...BMW needs to listen to its enthusiasts advice!!!!

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

I'm at he same boat you are. Suffering from traction issue and that's why both of us have 305 on rear but not satisfied yet.
McLaren MP4 is a lot lighter (~1000 lb) and has almost the same power (while less torque) we have but mid engine. No traction issue (or a little compare to M5/M6) and great handling. No need to AWD.
I wish the next M6 has 600-650 HP, 3800-3900 lb, 4-5" shorter (length) and slightly rear bias (45/55 - 47/53) weight distribution...It's not something impossible... 300-400 lb weight shaving is not a big deal... transaxle config + front-mid engine is a perfect solution... something like AMG GTS platform.

If we could get the McLaren suspension in the BMW that would be awesome too.

[mstmng]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

I'm at he same boat you are. Suffering from traction issue and that's why both of us have 305 on rear but not satisfied yet.
McLaren MP4 is a lot lighter (~1000 lb) and has almost the same power (while less torque) we have but mid engine. No traction issue (or a little compare to M5/M6) and great handling. No need to AWD.
I wish the next M6 has 600-650 HP, 3800-3900 lb, 4-5" shorter (length) and slightly rear bias (45/55 - 47/53) weight distribution...It's not something impossible... 300-400 lb weight shaving is not a big deal... transaxle config + front-mid engine is a perfect solution... something like AMG GTS platform.

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

It would be such an awesome development...BMW needs to listen to its enthusiasts advice!!!!

Originally Posted by RPiM5

If we could get the McLaren suspension in the BMW that would be awesome too.

and same level of ecu encryption to be left on new ecu's so no need for 3-year wait until we get them tuned