M5 with 800hp/1000Nm... SimonMotorSports of Dubai

[Tylerstar]

Originally Posted by Boss330

It's not faster than a Aventador in every metric I guess. They only said it's faster from 120km/h to 250km/h.

In a drag race I suspect it would be the opposite!

Gotcha, that makes more sense.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Boss330

It's not faster than a Aventador in every metric I guess. They only said it's faster from 120km/h to 250km/h.

In a drag race I suspect it would be the opposite!

A car that is faster 100-200km/hr traps more as well . If this car is making 800 hp with the S63 TU power curve and a DCT it should be trapping mid 130's all day long .

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The OP (me) only have the video...
The owner of the car however said the car had 800hp at the crank on a MAHA dyno
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showpos...4&postcount=29

Boss,
Would you please calculate the trap speed of this car the way you always calculate in other forums?
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...031015&page=13

Also you and owner of that car have had a long journey in different threads and somewhere he even claimed over 800HP but always refused to post the dyno! The only Dyno he posted shows 660WHP which is far less than 800HP at crank unless we consider about 18% drivetrain loss that I know you don't buy it as you believe in 12% ....
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthr...=979350&page=2

He also mentioned that his car has STOCK OUTPUT 558.19 WHP and 681.20 Nm of Torque where you posted 700HP, MHR stage 4!
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=830347

The point I’m trying to make is that you guys are providing the numbers that are not reliable! … I mean I’m lost here

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Boss,
Would you please calculate the trap speed of this car the way you always calculate in other forums?
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...031015&page=13

Also you and owner of that car have had a long journey in different threads and somewhere he even claimed over 800HP but always refused to post the dyno! The only Dyno he posted shows 660WHP which is far less than 800HP at crank unless we consider about 18% drivetrain loss that I know you don't buy it as you believe in 12% ....
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthr...=979350&page=2

He also mentioned that his car has STOCK OUTPUT 558.19 WHP and 681.20 Nm of Torque where you posted 700HP, MHR stage 4!
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=830347

The point I’m trying to make is that you guys are providing the numbers that are not reliable! … I mean I’m lost here

It's swamp that calculates trap speeds as he has the CarTest simulation software.

The 660whp Dynojet graph is from when he had the Manhart Stage IV tune that they said was 700hp (which is why they call their M5 and M6 either MH5 700 or MH6 700)

Since the MAHA has a different method to measure losses, these allways show a different whp number to a Dynojet. This has been discussed at length over on the F8x Boards.

The owner have had a few "bad" experiences where all he got from sharing dyno results was just bickering.

The MAHA will show what looks like a low whp number and large losses. Just look at the MAHA graph on the F8x and you will see what I mean. That's partly because the MAHA uses eddy current drums I have been told by the experts. I'm sure that if he posted his 800hp MAHA dyno, all he would hear was that the WHP was different or that he only gained x amount of whp, how can that be 800hp? It would end up in a endless debate with people dismissing the MAHA results, without understanding how the MAHA operates.

But, again, the 660whp graph is from back in the days when he had the Manhart tune.

His M5 did 558whp on the Dynojet and 660whp on the same Dynojet after the Manhart tune. With the knowledge that Dynojets often seem to inflate numbers, even Manhart chose not to call their car the MH5 750, but chose MH5 700 as a more proper number. They got 100whp more after their tune, so 700hp at the crank seems a reasonable gain from the claimed stock 560hp.

So, what doesn't add up in the numbers that has been provided?

We all know Dynojets seem to have inflated numbers, but his car made a 100whp gain. The Dynojet result of 660whp is the basis of the Manhart "700-series" of M5 and M6 tunes. That's hardly unreliable numbers to base a claim of 700hp at the crank on, is it? If anything it's being VERY modest after recording 660whp...

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The 660whp Dynojet graph is from when he had the Manhart Stage IV tune that they said was 700hp (which is why they call their M5 and M6 either MH5 700 or MH6 700)

...

And then after a couple weeks (months?) he went to Germany and removed the Manhart and switched to PPP, But before removing the Manhart, he dynode the car and this time measured 700 Crank! while he was measuring 660 WHP while ago. The same car, the same tuning!
Then he claimed 790 HP with PPP...Post number 108 here:
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthr...=830347&page=5

... this claim were changed later on to 800 and then over 800!

Sorry my friend, I don't buy any of these claims!!!
No offence to anyone including that guy! He has a good car...

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

And then after a couple weeks (months?) he went to Germany and removed the Manhart and switched to PPP, But before removing the Manhart, he dynode the car and this time measured 700 Crank! while he was measuring 660 WHP while ago. The same car, the same tuning!
Then he claimed 790 HP with PPP...Post number 108 here:
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthr...=830347&page=5

... this claim were changed later on to 800 and then over 800!

Sorry my friend, I don't buy any of these claims!!!
No offence to anyone including that guy! He has a good car...

He did the Manhart tune in march/april of 2013 (http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=830347)

One year later he changed to the PPP tune (http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=108)

That makes it a year, not weeks. Not sure how you managed to miss that After all, that info was in the links you provided...

We are now having exactly the discussion that is the reason why he won't show his dyno graph.

He writes here http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=108 that they measured 706 crank HP on a MAHA dyno. The 660whp was from a Dynojet. Same car, but different dynos!

As I replied to you in my previous post, even Manhart calls it a 700hp tune, as they, and everybody else, knows that history shows Dynojets to be inflated. Didn't you also read what the tuner said? He had cars with 450whp on a Dynojet that just made 470hp at the crank on a MAHA...

Dynojets has from 312whp to 370whp on the stock E9x M3 and 395whp to 425whp on the stock F8x M3/M4. Which of these numbers is correct? You can't compare a Dynojet with a MAHA, heck you can't even compare one Dynojet with another Dynojet...

Worst case is that his MAHA dyno shows 790hp, not 800hp... Unless he has made some other mods (in fact his car is now at Leib Engineering having Supersprint exhaust manifolds added and a new custom software map).

He also got a 84hp gain from his Manhart tune vs his PPP tune on the same MAHA dyno.

Again, which numbers don't add up?

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Boss330

He did the Manhart tune in march/april of 2013 (http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=830347)

One year later he changed to the PPP tune (http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=108)

That makes it a year, not weeks. Not sure how you managed to miss that After all, that info was in the links you provided...

We are now having exactly the discussion that is the reason why he won't show his dyno graph.

He writes here http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=108 that they measured 706 crank HP on a MAHA dyno. The 660whp was from a Dynojet. Same car, but different dynos!

As I replied to you in my previous post, even Manhart calls it a 700hp tune, as they, and everybody else, knows that history shows Dynojets to be inflated. Didn't you also read what the tuner said? He had cars with 450whp on a Dynojet that just made 470hp at the crank on a MAHA...

Dynojets has from 312whp to 370whp on the stock E9x M3 and 395whp to 425whp on the stock F8x M3/M4. Which of these numbers is correct? You can't compare a Dynojet with a MAHA, heck you can't even compare one Dynojet with another Dynojet...

Worst case is that his MAHA dyno shows 790hp, not 800hp... Unless he has made some other mods (in fact his car is now at Leib Engineering having Supersprint exhaust manifolds added and a new custom software map).

He also got a 84hp gain from his Manhart tune vs his PPP tune on the same MAHA dyno.

Again, which numbers don't add up?

Haha my point was not weeks or months or year; however a year is 12 months ! My point was "numbers"
I said he never posted any dyno or VBOX except the one that I mentioned and you are saying is high! .... He just "claimed" the numbers and those numbers do not make sense unless you have some evidences no matter what how many time you confirm them
Again, would you please calculate the trap speed of this 800HP/4400lb car the way you always calculate or at least give me a link to the formula you admit ???

[Luminor513]

All this thread did was prove what I already knew. Don't mess with 997.2 Turbo S. Those things are silly fast. Doesn't matter how much HP this M5 has, it's still one of the fastest and most capable sedans in the world, even in stock form.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Luminor513

All this thread did was prove what I already knew. Don't mess with 997.2 Turbo S. Those things are silly fast. Doesn't matter how much HP this M5 has, it's still one of the fastest and most capable sedans in the world, even in stock form.

lol ... This thread is about 800HP M5... not 911 vs M5
YOU ARE IN WRONG PLACE SIR

[Luminor513]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

lol ... This thread is about 800HP M5... not 911 vs M5
YOU ARE IN WRONG PLACE SIR

Thanks for the guidance

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Haha my point was not weeks or months or year; however a year is 12 months ! My point was "numbers"
I said he never posted any dyno or VBOX except the one that I mentioned and you are saying is high! .... He just "claimed" the numbers and those numbers do not make sense unless you have some evidences no matter what how many time you confirm them
Again, would you please calculate the trap speed of this 800HP/4400lb car the way you always calculate or at least give me a link to the formula you admit ???

Did you even read my reply?

I said @swamp2 use the CarTest simulation program to calculate trap speeds etc. This is not a simple online tool, but a full blown simulation software tool you must buy. It's not just put in a peak HP number and weight and away we go...

The Manhart MH6 700 did several races on GT Board that showed the potential the Manhart tune had.

If you want to claim that both member M-bitious and Simon Motorsport are liers, then that is of course up to you. I have no reason to disbelieve them. Seems you do however.

Which numbers doesn't make sense to you?

Manhart tune:
Dynojet - 660whp
MAHA - 706HP at the crank

PPP tune:
790hp at the crank on the same MAHA

What would be different towards these numbers "making sense" to you with a dyno graph? What would make more sense if you saw the numbers above on a dyno graph?

Do you still believe that you can compare a Dynojet with a MAHA? Do you realize the variation on the Dynojet is around 15% for the same type of car. This means you can't even compare one Dynojet with another Dynojet, as one might show 400whp and the other shows 460whp for the same car...

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Did you even read my reply?

I said @swamp2 use the CarTest simulation program to calculate trap speeds etc. This is not a simple online tool, but a full blown simulation software tool you must buy. It's not just put in a peak HP number and weight and away we go...

The Manhart MH6 700 did several races on GT Board that showed the potential the Manhart tune had.

If you want to claim that both member M-bitious and Simon Motorsport are liers, then that is of course up to you. I have no reason to disbelieve them. Seems you do however.

I swear I read your reply but you wrote swamp :

Originally Posted by Boss330

It's swamp that calculates trap speeds as he has the CarTest simulation software.

I thought Swamp is the name of iphone app or website sorry my bad

Boss, I have never claimed and will never claim anybody was/is liar
I just said those numbers are not reliable... like you said Dynojet vs MAHA ...
BTW, I always respect people... I'm done with this discussion !!!

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Boss330

If this isn't the same as implying someone is lying, then I don't know:

Oxford Dictionaries:

make sense
Be intelligible, justifiable, or practicable.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...ense#sense__34

liar
A person who tells lies.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...n_english/liar

[Erik K.]

Guys i have to add a few things.

The 706HP measured (before the PPP-tune)at the MAHA dyno was not max power.
Why not? You will ask
Because at the time the car got to PP-Performance the speed-limiter was re-activated at 250km/h. We had to delete the M-drivers package/reprogram the DME's at the dealership to let PPP remove the V-Max limiter. Unfortunatly the M5 also had a torque limiter as shown in one of the video's.
The M5 had 706HP at about 6100rpm in 5th gear equals about 250km/h, where the limiter was set.
We calculated that with the Manhart setup it should be somewhere around 740hp at about 6950rpm at the crank.
The 790hp measured with PPP setup was not yet with the IPE exhaust and also not with the torque limiter removed and even not yet with the bigger downpipes.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Erik K.

Guys i have to add a few things.

The 706HP measured (before the PPP-tune)at the MAHA dyno was not max power.
Why not? You will ask
Because at the time the car got to PP-Performance the speed-limiter was re-activated at 250km/h. We had to delete the M-drivers package/reprogram the DME's at the dealership to let PPP remove the V-Max limiter. Unfortunatly the M5 also had a torque limiter as shown in one of the video's.
The M5 had 706HP at about 6100rpm in 5th gear equals about 250km/h, where the limiter was set.
We calculated that with the Manhart setup it should be somewhere around 740hp at about 6950rpm at the crank.
The 790hp measured with PPP setup was not yet with the IPE exhaust and also not with the torque limiter removed and even not yet with the bigger downpipes.

Thanks

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Perhaps conveniently you forgot the "He just "claimed" part of your reply...

It's about the context, not just one phrase...

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...nglish/context

Claim
State or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de..._english/claim

Boss, you are acting opposite the way you used to be!
Go to bed. Its midnight over there ... you need some rests
when you wake up tomorrow, then read my posts again lol
Good night buddy

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Claim
State or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de..._english/claim

Boss, you are acting opposite the way you used to be!
Go to bed. Its midnight over there ... you need some rests
when you wake up tomorrow, then read my posts again lol
Good night buddy

Thanks! I needed that...

I have allready deleted my last posts. Sorry!

Perhaps I shouldn't have quit my medication yet

[IS3andME]

This car sounds pretty quiet for having 800 hp.
As opposed to a Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat with 707 hp.

[Franz@Simonmotorsport]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Then if it's 800 crank HP prove it. Terry did a verified 7.1 vBox 60-130mph with his car in the early stages of testing prior to meth injection. Maybe he's in the high 6's now with more boost and meth. If you are 100 more HP, then you should be low 6's.

And yes my 997.2 is faster than an Alpha 6 GTR. I presume that's the same as a FBO e85 GTR? When I only had a GIAC tune and IPD plenum (530 wheel), I beat a FBO e85 GTR making 600 mustang dyno wheel (with a 10.4 @ 134mph 1/4 mile timeslip) at the Shift Sector Big Willow roll-on event. I will post this vid if you want to see it. Now I have 75 more horsepower with intercoolers, exhaust and 4psi more boost so an Alpha 9 GTR is next. My buddy Dean has one that I want to race at the next Shift Sector airstrip event.

You have an awesome car but I just think 800 crank is a stretch. Cheers.

Its actually not my car

We tune alot of 997TT and yes they are insanely fast.. you got a great car too

V box numbers will be posted sometime soon whenever M bitious has the time to do some runs.. I agree, this car should do low 6 seconds fom 60-130MHP if not even below 6 seconds if traction is not a problem

[kevinlevrone]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Also for anyone who's ever owned a car close to 800hp or more, here in the states I've realized it's really pointless unless you live somewhere with no cops, no traffic and wide open roads. The F10 M5 with stock power and torque were plenty

Originally Posted by Maddict3

totally agree.

Originally Posted by Ramos

As Jeremy Clarkson said when testing the F12 Ferrari: too much power !! There is such a thing. I think 500-600 is the perfect range for a sick fast car that is still exploitable and fun to drive and doesn't want to kill you every time you think about touching the throttle !!

Originally Posted by Boss330

It's probably a limit to how much power really is needed in most situations.

Are you serious ? As Clarkson said about more power, "you don't have to use all of it, all the time".

But the real problem in what you said is that you judge power numbers, without looking at the weight. The BMW M5 weights 4400lbs. The cabrio M6 can't even keep up with the new M4 (tested by me). The regular BMW M6 and M5 acceleration is decent, but it could use 40-50% more power with no complaints from anyone.

[M-bitious]

To put things into perspective while not having vbox numbers. Car was on stage 4 Manhart back then with over 700 crank bhp.
First here is a BMW M3 E92 against a Mercedes C63 Coupe AMG black series.

Then my car is up against the same Mercedes.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by M-bitious

To put things into perspective while not having vbox numbers. Car was on stage 4 Manhart back then with over 700 crank bhp.
First here is a BMW M3 E92 against a Mercedes C63 Coupe AMG black series.

Then my car is up against the same Mercedes.

Please get Vbox 60-130mph and 1/4 mile numbers . A low 6 second 60-130 and high 136-138mph trap speed will be far beyond adequate proof of 800 hp . Can't manipulate performance on a flat road . Not you but so many people have submitted manipulated dynojet dynos they are almost useless . I wouldn't mind seeing it on the same MAHA before and after though for a delta .