Albert Biermann Speaks on BMW F10 M5 - No AWD or Touring Versions. Manual for US.

bmwpwer · 10-20-2011, 06:39 PM

I understand BMW's point of view on RWD, but the fact is that many people like me that would buy an M car (and have in the past) live in countries where having AWD would make the car much more viable all year round due to weather. If they do not produce M cars with an AWD option, they are loosing many sales. I had a 2009 M3 coupe and while I loved it, it simply was not viable 3-4 months of the year, so I got rid of it. I want another M3, but not until it is AWD.

TheBingoBalls · 10-20-2011, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmwpwer

I understand BMW's point of view on RWD, but the fact is that many people like me that would buy an M car (and have in the past) live in countries where having AWD would make the car much more viable all year round due to weather. If they do not produce M cars with an AWD option, they are loosing many sales. I had a 2009 M3 coupe and while I loved it, it simply was not viable 3-4 months of the year, so I got rid of it. I want another M3, but not until it is AWD.

Although AWD would be something less drastic like MT, I don't think sales would increase that much. The way I look at it is this, I think more people want a M5 with a stick than they do xDrive and if all they can get in terms of sales with a MT is less than 2000, I really don't think having AWD would boost their sales by all that much.

fallintotherhyme · 10-20-2011, 07:19 PM

Hm... I kinda get what the guy is saying. How many M users can actually beat a DCT system? There are people who are good with stick and truly buy the m5 for its practical size and sportiness, but perhaps the other segment of m5 drivers suck and just use the dct.

If only everyone drove a standard, i think we'd be in good standing.

palpatine_us · 10-20-2011, 07:28 PM

I can't understand why you don't want to get rid of the manual- have you guys even tried paddle shifters on a track?

You keep both hands on the wheel at all times, you decide the shift points with a tip of the paddle up/down. You can hold gears near redline as long as you need to, drop 2-3 gears as necessary coming out of turns. This isn't the paddle shifter in a honda or ford. All that is missing is the 3rd pedal, there is no loss of control. And you get to keep your hand on the wheel at all times.

Hell I can also do 18 mph in 6th gear if I'm running out of gas. Can't do that in A6, its got too many nanny controls.

cmk227 · 10-20-2011, 07:50 PM

The point is that most manual drivers are not offended that the DCT is much faster than manual. If I am spending $100k on the car it my choice that matters. DCT is fast and respect those that have it but my manual is mine and I

my car even more.

TheBingoBalls · 10-20-2011, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palpatine_us

I can't understand why you don't want to get rid of the manual- have you guys even tried paddle shifters on a track?

You keep both hands on the wheel at all times, you decide the shift points with a tip of the paddle up/down. You can hold gears near redline as long as you need to, drop 2-3 gears as necessary coming out of turns. This isn't the paddle shifter in a honda or ford. All that is missing is the 3rd pedal, there is no loss of control. And you get to keep your hand on the wheel at all times.

Hell I can also do 18 mph in 6th gear if I'm running out of gas. Can't do that in A6, its got too many nanny controls.

I think we all know in for the performance/track, DCT is the way to go but I'm willing to bet that there are quite a few buyers out there that won't track at all that would rather drive day-to-day with a stick than with paddles. Of course those users are very few given the numbers of how many M5's were sold.

sq86 · 10-20-2011, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shanecarmaster1

At least this is one car BMW didn't mess up lately.

+1

If I buy another BMW anytime soon it will def be a 5, which is crazy because it's still pretty big and I don't like big cars.

I like this color actually. It's really elegant.

M5007 · 10-20-2011, 09:59 PM

Biggest market calls for it. You deliver it. Seems simple enough. Give the customer what they want. I personally like the SMG

chris719 · 10-20-2011, 10:15 PM

Somehow I don't see a manual fitting the character of cars as big and luxury oriented as E60 and F10.

conradb · 10-20-2011, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tscdennab

The color looks like turd. It's beyond me how all the colors they can manage to do are in fact...gray. So he drives a gray car and wants us to be excited. No thanks.

On the other hand, a manual M5 really does make sense. Try to drive on a twisty hill with a DCT and with a manual, the experience is 100x more satisfying with the manual gearbox.

Please, do explain how driving a manual vs DCT in the twisties is just so much more satisfying? I have both a DCT and manual BMW, and I much prefer using my DCT on the track.

conradb · 10-20-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmwpwer

I understand BMW's point of view on RWD, but the fact is that many people like me that would buy an M car (and have in the past) live in countries where having AWD would make the car much more viable all year round due to weather. If they do not produce M cars with an AWD option, they are loosing many sales. I had a 2009 M3 coupe and while I loved it, it simply was not viable 3-4 months of the year, so I got rid of it. I want another M3, but not until it is AWD.

Clearly they aren't losing many sales. In all honesty, it's rather dumb to buy a sports car and want to drive it in rainy/snowy conditions. That doesn't even make sense. If you want year-round sport driving, move south.

conradb · 10-20-2011, 10:25 PM

Furthermore, the "manual" transmissions you people are bitching about are not anywhere close to what racing manuals are. Synchros and all that crap? Right.

Enjoy your luxury manual.

chris719 · 10-20-2011, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmwpwer

I understand BMW's point of view on RWD, but the fact is that many people like me that would buy an M car (and have in the past) live in countries where having AWD would make the car much more viable all year round due to weather. If they do not produce M cars with an AWD option, they are loosing many sales. I had a 2009 M3 coupe and while I loved it, it simply was not viable 3-4 months of the year, so I got rid of it. I want another M3, but not until it is AWD.

They have these things called snow tires. Even if the M5 was AWD you would need winter tires because it comes with summer tires...

e46e92love · 10-20-2011, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhillyNate

I'm actually a little offended that a representative is so inconvenienced by making manual transmissions for this small market called AMERICA. Which is actually their largest "M" market. This from people who claim they make "drivers" cars.

Its not inconvenient, its retarded. Cup holders, manuals and countelss other crap that the rest of the world understands the importance of, while Americans don't.

I mean how do ask for manuals like we are all about the experience and then bitch and moan about cup holders?

Cheers,
e46e92

MI6 · 10-20-2011, 11:43 PM

That's an original color?

All I see is Sepang Bronze with a hint of purple.

Now, seeing it in Imola Red- THAT would be unique.....

-Bond

tscdennab · 10-21-2011, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMWPower06

Im going to have to disagree here, while a manual is great for on road driving in normal conditions. A sequential manual is definitely the preferred choice for twisty back roads and on the track, this is coming from experience.

Preferred choice for what ? I was talking about the feeling and experience of driving a car, not lap timings...

I drove a Z4 35is DCT and after 10 minutes I was yawning. My 335i manual keeps me wanting to drive it 10 minutes after I get out of the car.

Touring · 10-21-2011, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhillyNate

I'm actually a little offended that a representative is so inconvenienced by making manual transmissions for this small market called AMERICA. Which is actually their largest "M" market. This from people who claim they make "drivers" cars.

Remember M wants to make their cars as fast and driveable as possible, using the latest technology. And DCT makes it faster on the Nürburgring, thats why they use it.

I have been on the Ring alot with my supercharged 330. Its so many turns, and through many of them you have to shift from second to third, or third to fourth.

Thats not exactly what you are enjoying doing pulling 1G , already pretty busy keeping the car from flying off the track.

simnew · 10-21-2011, 04:18 AM

The manual transmission is probably best for the 'sensation' of driving that we all got used to when we were learning. But it is undeniable that in the modern world, manuals are effectively becoming obsolete for so many reasons.

The vast majority of BMW's are sold with automatic transmissions these days and it just so happens that the modern auto is more economical than the manual. Add in the fact that traffic on ever more congested roads means that the auto soothes us on the commute home, and you begin to understand why they and now the DCT are so popular.

But in the real sports car world, manuals are dying out because the new DCT's with their paddle controls make the car faster, more economical, cushion the driveline more, save having to develop a special box with ever higher requirements for a reducing number of customers (even if many of them are in the US - funnily enough outside of the US is actually a much bigger potential market).

Personally I like the fact that you can operate the transmission via the selector on the transmission tunnel as well as the paddles on the steering wheel. At least you can give your non steering hand something to do ! But I do understand that, sometimes, everyone misses the 'satisfaction' of driving the manual where the skill of using the clutch smoothly and timing the change can give a feeling of being 'such a great driver'.

To lets face it, this is happening everywhere. The same has happened in HiFi, where the smoother sound of analogue is replaced by the more peaky digitial and quality (CD / SACD / Blu-ray ) is shunned for inferior MP3's and video on demand at 720p if you are lucky.

Perhaps if we were not always being so demanding - the new one MUST have more power, be faster, be more economical, must beat the Merc or Audi (not difficult) and rival a Porsche (can you still buy a manual one ?) then we would still have more human cars that interact with us rather than us interacting with the car.

mapezzul · 10-21-2011, 04:31 AM

I haven't finalized my copy yet but was also at this event. Damon captured the mood well but left out something that in the grand scheme helps it all relate. I am paraphrasing here but youll get the idea.

Biermann said the manual in the M5 makes little sense bc of the general customer base- well off business men/women living in urban areas where there is traffic and they may have clients/colleagues with them and who wants to row gears in that situation. Yes, the US wants it and will get it BUT there will come a point where there is no business case. The R&D required to develop a transmission and clutch that will stand up to a crappy driver for 4 years 50k is not easy or cheap (they may even charge extra according to some sources.) The other point is that while the US is the largest market it is not the most profitable and that really does matter.

He also said the M3 and "little one" make sense to be manuals to keep costs
down (less power means less costly manual) and the performance of the car is
more geared towards those that track and less towards those that are driving
clients. He calls the 1M the "little one" bc as we know the name 1M is one and done, with eyes already on the M2 they have a recipe they will stick to.

AWD is left to the Xs. Also remember- Ntischke replaced Segler and there were changes made to future products. Biermann said that even with 400 plus engineers they can't keep up with the rollout of BMW products as fast as they like. They have sold over 150,000 M Sport kits this year (keeps the lights on and allows them to keep M cars reasonable).

As for the M3- that is for another day.

tscdennab · 10-21-2011, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simnew

Porsche (can you still buy a manual one ?)

Oh yes you can, their new 911 on the 991 platform has a 7-speed manual transmission as standard...

Touring · 10-21-2011, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simnew

To lets face it, this is happening everywhere. The same has happened in HiFi, where the smoother sound of analogue is replaced by the more peaky digitial and quality (CD / SACD / Blu-ray ) is shunned for inferior MP3's and video on demand at 720p if you are lucky.

Perhaps if we were not always being so demanding - the new one MUST have more power, be faster, be more economical, must beat the Merc or Audi (not difficult) and rival a Porsche (can you still buy a manual one ?) then we would still have more human cars that interact with us rather than us interacting with the car.

Very well said everything in your post Simnew.

Sometimes I have to escape into the "analoge" world of the past, enjoying vinyl cracking records or driving the 1980 3-series, which is just pure driving pleasure.

Then I can return to the user-friendly, efficient digital world with a smile on my face :-)

bavarian19 · 10-21-2011, 07:21 AM

I can see the argument about DCT vs. manual. The numbers do speak for themselves.

However, I will not buy a car that isn't manual because of the experience. I usually like technology, but it interfering with my ability to simply drive the car will not suffice.

Plus, an M5 is too heavy for track use anyway. How many M5 owners really track their car?

10-20-2011, 06:39 PM	#23
bmwpwer Private First Class 54 Rep 185 Posts Drives: 2022 M550 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Burlington , Ontario iTrader: (1)	I understand BMW's point of view on RWD, but the fact is that many people like me that would buy an M car (and have in the past) live in countries where having AWD would make the car much more viable all year round due to weather. If they do not produce M cars with an AWD option, they are loosing many sales. I had a 2009 M3 coupe and while I loved it, it simply was not viable 3-4 months of the year, so I got rid of it. I want another M3, but not until it is AWD.
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10-20-2011, 07:19 PM	#25
fallintotherhyme First Lieutenant 9 Rep 349 Posts Drives: M316 xi Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NY iTrader: (0)	Hm... I kinda get what the guy is saying. How many M users can actually beat a DCT system? There are people who are good with stick and truly buy the m5 for its practical size and sportiness, but perhaps the other segment of m5 drivers suck and just use the dct. If only everyone drove a standard, i think we'd be in good standing.
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10-20-2011, 07:28 PM	#26
palpatine_us Banned 66 Rep 164 Posts Drives: 535i Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: New York iTrader: (0)	I can't understand why you don't want to get rid of the manual- have you guys even tried paddle shifters on a track? You keep both hands on the wheel at all times, you decide the shift points with a tip of the paddle up/down. You can hold gears near redline as long as you need to, drop 2-3 gears as necessary coming out of turns. This isn't the paddle shifter in a honda or ford. All that is missing is the 3rd pedal, there is no loss of control. And you get to keep your hand on the wheel at all times. Hell I can also do 18 mph in 6th gear if I'm running out of gas. Can't do that in A6, its got too many nanny controls.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-20-2011, 07:50 PM	#27
cmk227 Major 120 Rep 1,379 Posts Drives: Goal: Another ///M Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Garland, TX & Northern England iTrader: (2)	The point is that most manual drivers are not offended that the DCT is much faster than manual. If I am spending $100k on the car it my choice that matters. DCT is fast and respect those that have it but my manual is mine and I my car even more. __________________ 14 Lexus GX460 & 14 Lexus ES300H 14 BMW 528d Touring Estate - UK Previous M's: 11 BMW M3 JZB ZCP 6MT, 02 BMW M3 Conv 6MT & 02 BMW M3 Coupe 6MT
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10-20-2011, 09:59 PM	#30
M5007 Major 71 Rep 1,410 Posts Drives: 2014 M5 Competition Package Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Orange County, CA iTrader: (0)	Biggest market calls for it. You deliver it. Seems simple enough. Give the customer what they want. I personally like the SMG __________________
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10-20-2011, 10:15 PM	#31
chris719 Major General 7340 Rep 7,301 Posts Drives: '08 M Roadster Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NJ iTrader: (0)	Somehow I don't see a manual fitting the character of cars as big and luxury oriented as E60 and F10.
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10-20-2011, 10:25 PM	#34
conradb Lieutenant 73 Rep 493 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 (ZCP/DCT/ZCV) Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: GMT -8 iTrader: (0)	Furthermore, the "manual" transmissions you people are bitching about are not anywhere close to what racing manuals are. Synchros and all that crap? Right. Enjoy your luxury manual.
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10-20-2011, 11:43 PM	#37
MI6 The World is Not Enough 166 Rep 1,088 Posts Drives: Aston DBS-R Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Skyfall iTrader: (0)	That's an original color? All I see is Sepang Bronze with a hint of purple. Now, seeing it in Imola Red- THAT would be unique..... -Bond
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10-21-2011, 04:18 AM	#40
simnew First Lieutenant 106 Rep 310 Posts Drives: 2018 440i GranCoupe MSport Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: London iTrader: (0)	The manual transmission is probably best for the 'sensation' of driving that we all got used to when we were learning. But it is undeniable that in the modern world, manuals are effectively becoming obsolete for so many reasons. The vast majority of BMW's are sold with automatic transmissions these days and it just so happens that the modern auto is more economical than the manual. Add in the fact that traffic on ever more congested roads means that the auto soothes us on the commute home, and you begin to understand why they and now the DCT are so popular. But in the real sports car world, manuals are dying out because the new DCT's with their paddle controls make the car faster, more economical, cushion the driveline more, save having to develop a special box with ever higher requirements for a reducing number of customers (even if many of them are in the US - funnily enough outside of the US is actually a much bigger potential market). Personally I like the fact that you can operate the transmission via the selector on the transmission tunnel as well as the paddles on the steering wheel. At least you can give your non steering hand something to do ! But I do understand that, sometimes, everyone misses the 'satisfaction' of driving the manual where the skill of using the clutch smoothly and timing the change can give a feeling of being 'such a great driver'. To lets face it, this is happening everywhere. The same has happened in HiFi, where the smoother sound of analogue is replaced by the more peaky digitial and quality (CD / SACD / Blu-ray ) is shunned for inferior MP3's and video on demand at 720p if you are lucky. Perhaps if we were not always being so demanding - the new one MUST have more power, be faster, be more economical, must beat the Merc or Audi (not difficult) and rival a Porsche (can you still buy a manual one ?) then we would still have more human cars that interact with us rather than us interacting with the car.
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10-21-2011, 04:31 AM	#41
mapezzul Special Agent 74 Rep 1,731 Posts Drives: Depends on the day! Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Bavaria iTrader: (1)	I haven't finalized my copy yet but was also at this event. Damon captured the mood well but left out something that in the grand scheme helps it all relate. I am paraphrasing here but youll get the idea. Biermann said the manual in the M5 makes little sense bc of the general customer base- well off business men/women living in urban areas where there is traffic and they may have clients/colleagues with them and who wants to row gears in that situation. Yes, the US wants it and will get it BUT there will come a point where there is no business case. The R&D required to develop a transmission and clutch that will stand up to a crappy driver for 4 years 50k is not easy or cheap (they may even charge extra according to some sources.) The other point is that while the US is the largest market it is not the most profitable and that really does matter. He also said the M3 and "little one" make sense to be manuals to keep costs down (less power means less costly manual) and the performance of the car is more geared towards those that track and less towards those that are driving clients. He calls the 1M the "little one" bc as we know the name 1M is one and done, with eyes already on the M2 they have a recipe they will stick to. AWD is left to the Xs. Also remember- Ntischke replaced Segler and there were changes made to future products. Biermann said that even with 400 plus engineers they can't keep up with the rollout of BMW products as fast as they like. They have sold over 150,000 M Sport kits this year (keeps the lights on and allows them to keep M cars reasonable). As for the M3- that is for another day. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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10-21-2011, 07:21 AM	#44
bavarian19 General 517 Rep 18,858 Posts Drives: Car Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: VA iTrader: (23)	I can see the argument about DCT vs. manual. The numbers do speak for themselves. However, I will not buy a car that isn't manual because of the experience. I usually like technology, but it interfering with my ability to simply drive the car will not suffice. Plus, an M5 is too heavy for track use anyway. How many M5 owners really track their car?
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