Surprising Airfields race results

[m-ch]

Do not forget the Overdrive 6 and 7th gear on the m5 witch are fuel saving gears, compared to the 458 were every gear is used for max performance.

[Timberwolf]

Originally Posted by cpiguy

Before I begin a brief summary of my day at the No Fly Zone Race day, I do not have any video's to share, so you'll either trust my results, or not. Either way, I'm not a kid and have nothing to prove. Just want to share.

I took my M5, which is stock except for Meistershaft Exhaust and carbor filter delete, and my son took my 458, which is totally stock. I'm going to tell you about a few races in no paticular order. All races were 1/2 mile starting at 40mph in second gear. End speed was about 150mph.

First notable race was against another 2013 totally stock M5. No exhaust. i expected to crush him based on my $7000 exhaust system. Truth be told, I beat him by a car length, but only because I got the jump. If anything, I think he was gaining on me at the end of the run. So much for the 35hp I thought I got from my exhaust system.

Next I had the race everybodys waiting to hear about. I ran a 2012 GTR with full exhaust. We ran twice, I won the first by 2 car lengths and he won the second by about 3. The cars were very close and the wins depended on who got the better start. I was very please with the outcome.

Third race was against a brand new 2013 C63 with the optional performance package. I got a slight jump on him and won the race by a couple of car lengths. Great race and very close.

Forth race was aginst a 2011 Ferrari California which I absolutely killed. He had all kinds of problems getting the car to shift at redline without hitting the rev limiter.

Fifith race was against my own 458. It wasn't pretty. It beat the M5 by 6 car lengths and wasn't even breathing hard. Love my 458.

That's it for now. Next time out I'll have a GoPro hooked up...

I'm trying to understand your runs with the 13 GTR. You pulled 2, then him 3, sounds like a 3rd run was in order. Sounds like if you were to net it out, he'd gain a car on you? Granted I know the GTR does experience gains from a full exhaust.

[cpiguy]

Originally Posted by Timberwolf

I'm trying to understand your runs with the 13 GTR. You pulled 2, then him 3, sounds like a 3rd run was in order. Sounds like if you were to net it out, he'd gain a car on you? Granted I know the GTR does experience gains from a full exhaust.

Wasn't very complicated. I got a bit of a jump the first run and he couldn't catch me. He got a little jump on the second run and slowley pulled away from me. Bottom line was that the cars were very close and he was a little stronger on the top end, above 100 mph.

I would not race him for pink slips

[VaclavSV]

Originally Posted by cpiguy

Keep in mind that this C63 sedan had the special addition 510hp Black Series motor. Very rare car. The M5 would kill a standard C63 or a C63 with the option Performance Package option.

The owner of this C63 has mentioned he has the P31 package which is just the Performance Package Option. I pulled on a stock F10 M5 with my P31 C63 Sedan (Resonator Delete, AFE Filters). The car you raced was not "Very Rare" The P31 package although rated by AMG at 481 hp actually puts down bigger numbers on the dyno! I asked the owner of the C63 to comment on his performance upgrades so I will see if in fact he has additional tuning over the P31 package .. which I dont believe he has. The P31 is the same engine as the C63 BS maybe a different tune but I doubt it.

[Niko1414]

My buddy just placed his new truly bone stock C63 P31 on dyno and it made 411whp and 380wtq.. Something not right with a stock C63 p31 beating a stock M5. Driver error or C63 had some special sauce.

I also have an c63 with a tune and from a roll my M5 is at least 3 car lengths ahead at 120ish.

[cpiguy]

Originally Posted by VaclavSV

The owner of this C63 has mentioned he has the P31 package which is just the Performance Package Option. I pulled on a stock F10 M5 with my P31 C63 Sedan (Resonator Delete, AFE Filters). The car you raced was not "Very Rare" The P31 package although rated by AMG at 481 hp actually puts down bigger numbers on the dyno! I asked the owner of the C63 to comment on his performance upgrades so I will see if in fact he has additional tuning over the P31 package .. which I dont believe he has. The P31 is the same engine as the C63 BS maybe a different tune but I doubt it.

Must be a differnt guy. I believe his name is Eric and his ride was a brand new black c63. He and I raced 2 months ago when he had his modded e63, which was ridculously fast. He tells it like it is. According to him, the new car has the Black Series motor, and I believe him.

Either way I don't really care, but a stock PP c63 will not hold up against a new F10 M5.

[VaclavSV]

Originally Posted by cpiguy

Must be a differnt guy. I believe his name is Eric and his ride was a brand new black c63. He and I raced 2 months ago when he had his modded e63, which was ridculously fast. He tells it like it is. According to him, the new car has the Black Series motor, and I believe him.

Either way I don't really care, but a stock PP c63 will not hold up against a new F10 M5.

You're wrong. Your car matched a performance package C63 sedan. The car was a stock P31 aka "Performance Package" These cars do have the same engine! Every Performance Package C63 has the same engine as the C63 AMG BS!

http://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w2...13-f10-m5.html

[cpiguy]

Originally Posted by VaclavSV

You're wrong. Your car matched a performance package C63 sedan. The car was a stock P31 aka "Performance Package" These cars do have the same engine! Every Performance Package C63 has the same engine as the C63 AMG BS!

http://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w2...13-f10-m5.html

I may be wrong, but I'm only repeating what the owner told me. I don't see any reason for him to lie about the fact that he has the 510hp BS motor after I just beat him in a race, do you? Anyway, I've sent him a PM on BenzBoost. We'll see how he responds.

I'll repeat what I said earlier. This doesn't matter to me one way or the other. If it was really that important to be the big dog at these races, I'd put $50k into my E92 or a GTR and create a monster.

So again, I may be wrong, but that's what he represented.

[Niko1414]

Either M5 driver messed up or c63 was not stock. Pretty simple as that.

[MTV]

CPIGUY... you will not gain any power from a Cat-Back.

Only way to gain power from exhaust on the F10 M5 is through downpipes.

[Vic55]

The very special c63 is the 507 edition and its not out yet... it supposedly is the closest in factory hp to the black series (which I have).

Eric did indeed have an E63 and he traded it in for a C63PP car but it doesnt have the 507 edition attached. I did watch his run against another C63 with a tune and he worked it pretty good.

The F10 is faster than my Black Series- I have both and my black is tuned to 476whp and the F10 put up 550 uncorrected and 538 whp corrected. But this is all dyno crap and I like them for tuning purposes. On the street the Black is still very fast but the M5 is no doubt faster.

I think often the drivers of the F10's forget to put their settings in the right modes. The BMW modes clearly change the characteristics of the car moreso than my Black (eg- sport plus, drive mode 3, blah blah). There was a C63 (tuned) race with an F10 vid posted at MBworld and it was close but we found out later the F10 driver was in comfort mode across the board. I know here that if we drive in comfort we drive a slower responding car.

[Timberwolf]

Has anyone considered brake boosting to get a stronger jump?

[xtyper313]

Hey guys, it's Eric, the owner of the C63 in question.

I think there was some confusion when I talked with Arnie about my car at the event. While my car with the P31 package supposedly has the same engine as the Black Series (M156 w/ forged internals), it does not come with the same stock hp rating (481hp for my car vs 510hp for the Black). Most assume this is attributable to a more aggressive factory tune put on the Black Series. However, most dyno runs of the P31 show it is underrated and actually making closer to the 510 crank horsepower that the Black Series is rated at. That's not to suggest it's really making the same power as the Black Series, because my suspicion is that the Black Series is a bit underrated itself.

Bottom line, my car is a stock 2013 C63 Sedan with P31 package, which is supposed to have same engine as the Black Series C63, albeit different factory hp ratings.

Hope that helps clarify things a bit.

Arnie, I'll be at the next SS airstrip event 4/6-4/7, so hopefully you can make it out and have a tune by then to rematch me with my new longtube headers and tune. Should make for a very interesting race. Great seeing you again!

[TheRealOrosie]

Originally Posted by Timberwolf

Has anyone considered brake boosting to get a stronger jump?

Did you watch the video? They went from a roll....

[RPiM5]

Dudes,

I'm starting to feel like the F10 is actually a more difficult car to learn how to race with from a roll than another car with a naturally aspirated engine. I've never had problems with racing techniques with NA cars and for some reason I'm having difficulty myself with the F10 and it's turbo engine. The F10 is my first turbo car I have ever owned. I did not go to the runway races myself but last weekend I did get a chance to do some street and highway races. I know the F10 is a fast car but I was tied or losing to cars that I should have easily beaten. I think there is a definite importance to what gear you are starting from in the F10 and at what RPM, it makes a huge difference I found out.

For example I was starting races from a 60mph roll in 3rd gear. I had no idea that I probably should have been starting in 2nd gear at 60mph which puts the F10's engine at 6,000 rpm. Call me a newb or whatever, but by starting in 3rd gear I was having difficult time pulling on the other car. I guess I am still getting used to how turbos work and how they need to build boost in order the engine to enter the best part of the power band. Also I'm still learning how to use the M5's torque to its max potential, to launch the car from a roll, it's not as easy as it sounds I found out.

And for any of you wondering, I was racing a Stage 2 E60 M5, a car that a stock F10 should be able to easily beat, yet I was having difficulty. When I used to race NA cars I always knew the torque and the highest horsepower range were at high rpms and it was easy to get a jump on the opponent. I still remember at 60mph the E60 V10 would be at 7,000rpm in 2nd gear. The same speed at 6,000rpm in the F10 is completely different.

Anyways, I think that perhaps with better techniques we should be able to see the F10 be faster than the C63 P31 just like Vic55 has had direct experience with. I trust Vic55's experience especially since he has the Black Series and has done a comparison between the 2 even stating the that F10 beats his Black Series.

In any case, my point is the F10 is trickier to race than any NA car I have raced and I can't wait to get on the runway one day with my F10.

[Timberwolf]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Dudes,

I'm starting to feel like the F10 is actually a more difficult car to learn how to race with from a roll than another car with a naturally aspirated engine. I've never had problems with racing techniques with NA cars and for some reason I'm having difficulty myself with the F10 and it's turbo engine. The F10 is my first turbo car I have ever owned. I did not go to the runway races myself but last weekend I did get a chance to do some street and highway races. I know the F10 is a fast car but I was tied or losing to cars that I should have easily beaten. I think there is a definite importance to what gear you are starting from in the F10 and at what RPM, it makes a huge difference I found out.

For example I was starting races from a 60mph roll in 3rd gear. I had no idea that I probably should have been starting in 2nd gear at 60mph which puts the F10's engine at 6,000 rpm. Call me a newb or whatever, but by starting in 3rd gear I was having difficult time pulling on the other car. I guess I am still getting used to how turbos work and how they need to build boost in order the engine to enter the best part of the power band. Also I'm still learning how to use the M5's torque to its max potential, to launch the car from a roll, it's not as easy as it sounds I found out.

And for any of you wondering, I was racing a Stage 2 E60 M5, a car that a stock F10 should be able to easily beat, yet I was having difficulty. When I used to race NA cars I always knew the torque and the highest horsepower range were at high rpms and it was easy to get a jump on the opponent. I still remember at 60mph the E60 V10 would be at 7,000rpm in 2nd gear. The same speed at 6,000rpm in the F10 is completely different.

Anyways, I think that perhaps with better techniques we should be able to see the F10 be faster than the C63 P31 just like Vic55 has had direct experience with. I trust Vic55's experience especially since he has the Black Series and has done a comparison between the 2 even stating the that F10 beats his Black Series.

In any case, my point is the F10 is trickier to race than any NA car I have raced and I can't wait to get on the runway one day with my F10.

This is the whole point to brake boosting!! Why does everyone ignore this? I wouldn't do it every day but on the occasional street race it should be more than fine.
I haven't tried it yet in my car, but in my 135i and 997 Turbo, brake boosting in a higher gear like RPIm5 was in 3rd gear would allow you to be on full boost the moment you let go of the brake and fully depress the gas pedal. This is a subtle art form, but hugely effective on a turbo car that is prone to lag.
That extra mississippi it buys you can make or break a race.

[Niko1414]

Dave I agree 100% you need to be in the right gear and settings. Also what I've found is many people don't actually jam the throttle to floor because of the detent 90% of the way down.

At the last SS airstrip event I was rolling at 40-50mph in 2nd gear, S3, sport plus and MDM. I do recall that i tried 3rd gear against a cls63 which I had crushed 2x before and it was a much closer race then the 4 car length wins before...

[cpiguy]

Originally Posted by MTV

CPIGUY... you will not gain any power from a Cat-Back.

Only way to gain power from exhaust on the F10 M5 is through downpipes.

Peace! You may notice I said just that in my original post. The point I was making is that the manufacturer claims a 35hp gain, (which I never believed) and I just want to claify reality for the forum buddies that hang out on this site.

[cpiguy]

Originally Posted by xtyper313

Hey guys, it's Eric, the owner of the C63 in question.

I think there was some confusion when I talked with Arnie about my car at the event. While my car with the P31 package supposedly has the same engine as the Black Series (M156 w/ forged internals), it does not come with the same stock hp rating (481hp for my car vs 510hp for the Black). Most assume this is attributable to a more aggressive factory tune put on the Black Series. However, most dyno runs of the P31 show it is underrated and actually making closer to the 510 crank horsepower that the Black Series is rated at. That's not to suggest it's really making the same power as the Black Series, because my suspicion is that the Black Series is a bit underrated itself.

Bottom line, my car is a stock 2013 C63 Sedan with P31 package, which is supposed to have same engine as the Black Series C63, albeit different factory hp ratings.

Hope that helps clarify things a bit.

Arnie, I'll be at the next SS airstrip event 4/6-4/7, so hopefully you can make it out and have a tune by then to rematch me with my new longtube headers and tune. Should make for a very interesting race. Great seeing you again!

Hey Eric:

I sent you a PM on BenzBoost. Thanks for the clarification. I'll will be there on the 6th and 7th, without tune. I just don't think anyone will have a reliable solution fully baked by then.

[cpiguy]

I do plan to bring my modded 2010 e92 for shits and giggles.

[m-ch]

M5 f10 vs c63 amg 0-280kmh

[u2b]http://youtu.be/pkwQdzzPhjg[/u2b]

http://youtu.be/pkwQdzzPhjg

That reflect pretty well my own experiance on German Highways 200-290kmh
The m (with driver packages) pulls quiet a bit harder on those highspeeds than my friends ( delimited c 63 pp). According to him the really long 5, 6 and 7 the gear doesent help for high speed runs

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Dudes,

I'm starting to feel like the F10 is actually a more difficult car to learn how to race with from a roll than another car with a naturally aspirated engine. I've never had problems with racing techniques with NA cars and for some reason I'm having difficulty myself with the F10 and it's turbo engine. The F10 is my first turbo car I have ever owned. I did not go to the runway races myself but last weekend I did get a chance to do some street and highway races. I know the F10 is a fast car but I was tied or losing to cars that I should have easily beaten. I think there is a definite importance to what gear you are starting from in the F10 and at what RPM, it makes a huge difference I found out.

For example I was starting races from a 60mph roll in 3rd gear. I had no idea that I probably should have been starting in 2nd gear at 60mph which puts the F10's engine at 6,000 rpm. Call me a newb or whatever, but by starting in 3rd gear I was having difficult time pulling on the other car. I guess I am still getting used to how turbos work and how they need to build boost in order the engine to enter the best part of the power band. Also I'm still learning how to use the M5's torque to its max potential, to launch the car from a roll, it's not as easy as it sounds I found out.

And for any of you wondering, I was racing a Stage 2 E60 M5, a car that a stock F10 should be able to easily beat, yet I was having difficulty. When I used to race NA cars I always knew the torque and the highest horsepower range were at high rpms and it was easy to get a jump on the opponent. I still remember at 60mph the E60 V10 would be at 7,000rpm in 2nd gear. The same speed at 6,000rpm in the F10 is completely different.

Anyways, I think that perhaps with better techniques we should be able to see the F10 be faster than the C63 P31 just like Vic55 has had direct experience with. I trust Vic55's experience especially since he has the Black Series and has done a comparison between the 2 even stating the that F10 beats his Black Series.

In any case, my point is the F10 is trickier to race than any NA car I have raced and I can't wait to get on the runway one day with my F10.

Yes, turbo is a little different....although there is very little lag on the S63Tu, it does need some help to get going.

Here is a quick clip going from 60 ish to 140 in 3rd. A run from second would be better, or brake boost, but this is difficult to control.