M5POST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   M5POST - BMW M5 Forum > F10 M5 Forum > Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain Modifications

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-11-2016, 03:42 PM   #1
TheHouseWon
Colonel
TheHouseWon's Avatar
643
Rep
2,039
Posts

Drives: 2013 M5
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (10)

Help me understand proper tune vs. Piggyback

What does a tune do that a piggyback doesn't? Does the tuner optimize afr, timing, etc on a dyno? Does a piggyback essentially increase boost without changing other parameters?

I get that a piggyback fools the computer into reading different engine outputs, how does that differ from a tune at the ECU level?

Thanks

Ps. Goal is 620whp, no meth, no clutches, 91 octane, limited track use (daily driver)
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2016, 06:41 PM   #2
BPMSport
BPMSport's Avatar
United_States
3381
Rep
7,539
Posts

Drives: Harrop M3 / F10 M5 / F82 M4
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (9)

Garage List
2000 BMW M5  [0.00]
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [0.00]
2008 BMW M3  [7.50]
2015 BMW M3  [0.00]
2015 BMW M5  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHouseWon
What does a tune do that a piggyback doesn't? Does the tuner optimize afr, timing, etc on a dyno? Does a piggyback essentially increase boost without changing other parameters?

I get that a piggyback fools the computer into reading different engine outputs, how does that differ from a tune at the ECU level?

Thanks

Ps. Goal is 620whp, no meth, no clutches, 91 octane, limited track use (daily driver)
In a nutshell, a piggyback tricks the computer in order to achieve a desired result. It doesn't have direct control over engine operation, and it can not surpass certain limits/restrictions imposed by the factory computer. A proper tune is a much better way to go for the goal you have set.

A proper tune is as if the computer was programmed for the car to output those power levels from the factory without intercepting signals, etc.
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----
Appreciate 1
      04-11-2016, 09:22 PM   #3
TrevorM3
Banned
3318
Rep
8,083
Posts

Drives: 6.3 AMG
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (0)

so why would one go with one vs the other? say you just wanted a bit more power, but wanted a very simple setup. no race gas ect. just a simple tune to push you over the 600 mark.

piggy the way to go in this case?
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2016, 09:32 PM   #4
ChrisNich117
First Lieutenant
ChrisNich117's Avatar
United_States
129
Rep
395
Posts

Drives: '14 F10 M5 Alpine White ZCP
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Bradenton Florida

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 e92 M3 coupe  [0.00]
2013 F10 M5  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHouseWon
What does a tune do that a piggyback doesn't? Does the tuner optimize afr, timing, etc on a dyno? Does a piggyback essentially increase boost without changing other parameters?

I get that a piggyback fools the computer into reading different engine outputs, how does that differ from a tune at the ECU level?

Thanks

Ps. Goal is 620whp, no meth, no clutches, 91 octane, limited track use (daily driver)
Go for the Dinan piggyback. Plugs into the DME's and does everything a flash tune would do except the removal of the top speed limiter. The other piggyback tunes aren't anywhere near as advanced or capable. Keep your warranty, get the most useable power within the limitations of the stock components to maintain the handling characteristics, more than enough power and you can flip between tunes via Bluetooth through their app. Best mod I've purchased, especially for track performance. If you want to turn the car into a drag racer with 800+ hp and just go in a straight line then get a flash tune.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2016, 12:39 AM   #5
13M5F10
Hide! My wife's coming!
13M5F10's Avatar
United_States
808
Rep
2,816
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5 | MSR Stage 3
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Las Colinas, TX

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHouseWon
What does a tune do that a piggyback doesn't? Does the tuner optimize afr, timing, etc on a dyno? Does a piggyback essentially increase boost without changing other parameters?

I get that a piggyback fools the computer into reading different engine outputs, how does that differ from a tune at the ECU level?

Thanks

Ps. Goal is 620whp, no meth, no clutches, 91 octane, limited track use (daily driver)
The BMS piggy back increase boost by tricking the ECU into increasing boost to target. The Jb4 is slightly more advanced but still operates the same. When this happens, your DMEs are forced to adapt however it is never running as efficient and most likely will run leaner. This causes premature wear and tear on your plugs, coil packs and other items.

A proper tune changes the DMEs parameters to properly to produce the power output. Those parameters are boost, ignition, timing, AFR, fuel, waste gate, throttle and few other items. Your car should feel more effluence, smoother, and have a more consistent power output.

When I switched from my JB4 to the two tunes I have, it was a night and day difference. Car felt like it was breathing better, no turbo lag, power at all RPMs. List goes on.

On just a flash tune stock car, I have seen tuners hit close to 670-690 whp. 620 would be very achievable if that is where you want to be.
__________________
*** SOLD *** 2013 BMW M5 | Space Grey | MSR Stage 3 Tune | Catless Downpipes | MSR Intake and Charge Pipes | MSR Exhaust (Prototype) | Vorsteiner Rear Diffuser | RW Carbon Front Lip | RW Carbon Trunk Spoiler| Vorsteiner VS-310 Forged Wheels | Escort 9500CI w/Laser Jammers
Appreciate 1
      04-13-2016, 10:13 AM   #6
TheHouseWon
Colonel
TheHouseWon's Avatar
643
Rep
2,039
Posts

Drives: 2013 M5
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (10)

AWE, AMS, Hartge, Switzer, Eurocharged, ESS, Evolve, MSR, GSR, Mission, BPM, Precision, ...

In no particular order I listed the tunes I've heard of and I'm sure there are many more. Making a decision between tunes is harder than buying the right mutual fund TOO MANY variables. They all differentiate themselves in one way or another.
Appreciate 0
      04-13-2016, 10:34 AM   #7
MCarsFan
Lieutenant Colonel
MCarsFan's Avatar
United_States
363
Rep
1,805
Posts

Drives: 2014 BMW M5 F10 CP
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Dallas, Texas

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 BMW F10 M5  [10.00]
My M5 has been remapped since January 2015. Having the limiter removed in itself is a reason to get a remap,but the main benefit is that your car is running more optimally by all parameters being programmed into the ECU versus being tricked by a piggyback.
On warranty, I disagree that it's a big risk. If a dealer starts looking at any of our cars with FBOs you will have an issue regardless
Remember DINAN does not keep your warranty intact, they offer to warranty the car themselves.
__________________
2014 BMW F10 M5 ZCP | SSII / Black | MSR Stage III | MSR Intakes | RPi GTM Exhaust | RPi Catless Downpipes |RW Carbon Front Lip | RW Carbon Diffuser | RW Carbon Trunk Spoiler |
Appreciate 1
      04-13-2016, 02:21 PM   #8
mike@x-ph.com
Joint Chiefs of Staff
mike@x-ph.com's Avatar
United_States
23791
Rep
190,150
Posts

Drives: 07-335/12-328/18-M4/21-M4CP
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (23)

a flash tune operates by changing ECU variables while a regular piggy just tricks the ECU into making more boost

A more advanced piggy like the JB4, doesn't just add boost. It also controls other variables like timing similar to a flash (indirectly)

JB4 will have a lot more features, flexibility, maps than a flash tune

Power wise, it is similar. To get max power you need to stack both
__________________
Check out our current sale by clicking on this link!
https://x-ph.com/sale/

Phone number 702-494-9435
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2016, 12:41 PM   #9
Vic55
Lieutenant General
Vic55's Avatar
18966
Rep
10,095
Posts

Drives: 2023 BMW M8 Competition Coupe
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: THE Orange County

iTrader: (9)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
a flash tune operates by changing ECU variables while a regular piggy just tricks the ECU into making more boost

A more advanced piggy like the JB4, doesn't just add boost. It also controls other variables like timing similar to a flash (indirectly)

JB4 will have a lot more features, flexibility, maps than a flash tune

Power wise, it is similar. To get max power you need to stack both
So I have a DME (Flash Tune) and I should also get a JB4?? Whats the add on gains with the JB4?
__________________
2023 BMW M8 Coupe Competition Alpine White
2022 BMW M3 Competition XDrive Aventurine Red
2022 Porsche Carrera GTS Coupe Shark Blue
2020 Audi R8 V10 Performance Suzuka Gray
2012 Mercedes Benz C63 AMG Black Series Obsidian Black
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2016, 12:42 PM   #10
mike@x-ph.com
Joint Chiefs of Staff
mike@x-ph.com's Avatar
United_States
23791
Rep
190,150
Posts

Drives: 07-335/12-328/18-M4/21-M4CP
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (23)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic55 View Post
So I have a DME (Flash Tune) and I should also get a JB4?? Whats the add on gains with the JB4?
I would add my FBO mods first then a Jb4

You will also need to change the map on your flash tune which is why we recommend adding the flash tune when all performance modding is done
__________________
Check out our current sale by clicking on this link!
https://x-ph.com/sale/

Phone number 702-494-9435
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2016, 01:18 PM   #11
Vic55
Lieutenant General
Vic55's Avatar
18966
Rep
10,095
Posts

Drives: 2023 BMW M8 Competition Coupe
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: THE Orange County

iTrader: (9)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
I would add my FBO mods first then a Jb4

You will also need to change the map on your flash tune which is why we recommend adding the flash tune when all performance modding is done
I don't think I'm going to do DP's or any more engine mods--- I just did the Flash for some added oomph. But if the JB4 adds more to the Flash I might consider since its a cheap add.
__________________
2023 BMW M8 Coupe Competition Alpine White
2022 BMW M3 Competition XDrive Aventurine Red
2022 Porsche Carrera GTS Coupe Shark Blue
2020 Audi R8 V10 Performance Suzuka Gray
2012 Mercedes Benz C63 AMG Black Series Obsidian Black
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2016, 01:23 PM   #12
erm324
Major
United_States
122
Rep
1,202
Posts

Drives: F10 M5
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NYC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic55
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
I would add my FBO mods first then a Jb4

You will also need to change the map on your flash tune which is why we recommend adding the flash tune when all performance modding is done
I don't think I'm going to do DP's or any more engine mods--- I just did the Flash for some added oomph. But if the JB4 adds more to the Flash I might consider since its a cheap add.
The JB4+BCM typically gets stacked onto a backend flash for racegas and/or meth injection applications (keep in mind you'll be well past the DCT threshold at that point). On pump the flash should suffice.
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2016, 04:45 PM   #13
MCarsFan
Lieutenant Colonel
MCarsFan's Avatar
United_States
363
Rep
1,805
Posts

Drives: 2014 BMW M5 F10 CP
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Dallas, Texas

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 BMW F10 M5  [10.00]
Flash is great.
__________________
2014 BMW F10 M5 ZCP | SSII / Black | MSR Stage III | MSR Intakes | RPi GTM Exhaust | RPi Catless Downpipes |RW Carbon Front Lip | RW Carbon Diffuser | RW Carbon Trunk Spoiler |
Appreciate 1
      04-14-2016, 05:12 PM   #14
13M5F10
Hide! My wife's coming!
13M5F10's Avatar
United_States
808
Rep
2,816
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5 | MSR Stage 3
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Las Colinas, TX

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic55
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
I would add my FBO mods first then a Jb4

You will also need to change the map on your flash tune which is why we recommend adding the flash tune when all performance modding is done
I don't think I'm going to do DP's or any more engine mods--- I just did the Flash for some added oomph. But if the JB4 adds more to the Flash I might consider since its a cheap add.
Once you stack you'll need to data log and have the flash tune adjusted to support the additional power/boost hence the backend flash
__________________
*** SOLD *** 2013 BMW M5 | Space Grey | MSR Stage 3 Tune | Catless Downpipes | MSR Intake and Charge Pipes | MSR Exhaust (Prototype) | Vorsteiner Rear Diffuser | RW Carbon Front Lip | RW Carbon Trunk Spoiler| Vorsteiner VS-310 Forged Wheels | Escort 9500CI w/Laser Jammers
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2016, 06:27 PM   #15
Mpire
Private First Class
55
Rep
133
Posts

Drives: F10 M5
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: NYC

iTrader: (0)

Can flash tune get deleted for some reason?
Like while getting serviced at BMW?
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2016, 06:31 PM   #16
mike@x-ph.com
Joint Chiefs of Staff
mike@x-ph.com's Avatar
United_States
23791
Rep
190,150
Posts

Drives: 07-335/12-328/18-M4/21-M4CP
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (23)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpirestate View Post
Can flash tune get deleted for some reason?
Like while getting serviced at BMW?
IF BMW technicians are going after a tune, flash is very easily detectable
__________________
Check out our current sale by clicking on this link!
https://x-ph.com/sale/

Phone number 702-494-9435
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2016, 07:05 PM   #17
TheHouseWon
Colonel
TheHouseWon's Avatar
643
Rep
2,039
Posts

Drives: 2013 M5
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (10)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
IF BMW technicians are going after a tune, flash is very easily detectable
Because of the drilled holes in the ECU's?
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2016, 07:09 PM   #18
mike@x-ph.com
Joint Chiefs of Staff
mike@x-ph.com's Avatar
United_States
23791
Rep
190,150
Posts

Drives: 07-335/12-328/18-M4/21-M4CP
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (23)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHouseWon View Post
Because of the drilled holes in the ECU's?
A simple look on any of the AFR,Timing,Load table will show that these tables have been changed
__________________
Check out our current sale by clicking on this link!
https://x-ph.com/sale/

Phone number 702-494-9435
Appreciate 1
      04-14-2016, 07:25 PM   #19
13M5F10
Hide! My wife's coming!
13M5F10's Avatar
United_States
808
Rep
2,816
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5 | MSR Stage 3
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Las Colinas, TX

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpirestate
Can flash tune get deleted for some reason?
Like while getting serviced at BMW?
Yes it's reversible ..
__________________
*** SOLD *** 2013 BMW M5 | Space Grey | MSR Stage 3 Tune | Catless Downpipes | MSR Intake and Charge Pipes | MSR Exhaust (Prototype) | Vorsteiner Rear Diffuser | RW Carbon Front Lip | RW Carbon Trunk Spoiler| Vorsteiner VS-310 Forged Wheels | Escort 9500CI w/Laser Jammers
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2016, 07:40 PM   #20
13M5F10
Hide! My wife's coming!
13M5F10's Avatar
United_States
808
Rep
2,816
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5 | MSR Stage 3
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Las Colinas, TX

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpirestate View Post
Can flash tune get deleted for some reason?
Like while getting serviced at BMW?
IF BMW technicians are going after a tune, flash is very easily detectable
This is what I was told by several foremen and an engineer.

Technicians do not have the tools to detect changes to the DME nor is it part of their scope to do so during routine warranty and maintenance claims. However, there may be a requirement to send the readings to an engineer that will check for changes to the tables if it's a major claim. They do have the ability to detect changes to be tables.
Reverting the parameters back to stock tables would would avoid this.

We've been through this already at BMW between a tuned car and a BMS piggy back. The tuned car didn't show any traces of tampering or changes with their tools they have in house. The piggy due to forced changes caused errors that were saved to the DME. A trained tech can tell through those errors that something was forcing changes within the DME causing those issues. Most guys don't really care to be honest to even dig into it.

I could be wrong with my theory but this is what was explained to me and what we found during our testing with a few friends at BMW.

I've known two friends who were fully modified and had their engines fail due to mechanical failure. Despite all the bolt-ons and flash tune, the crate engine and labor was covered under warranty.
__________________
*** SOLD *** 2013 BMW M5 | Space Grey | MSR Stage 3 Tune | Catless Downpipes | MSR Intake and Charge Pipes | MSR Exhaust (Prototype) | Vorsteiner Rear Diffuser | RW Carbon Front Lip | RW Carbon Trunk Spoiler| Vorsteiner VS-310 Forged Wheels | Escort 9500CI w/Laser Jammers
Appreciate 1
      04-14-2016, 10:37 PM   #21
Mpire
Private First Class
55
Rep
133
Posts

Drives: F10 M5
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: NYC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13M5F10 View Post
This is what I was told by several foremen and an engineer.

Technicians do not have the tools to detect changes to the DME nor is it part of their scope to do so during routine warranty and maintenance claims. However, there may be a requirement to send the readings to an engineer that will check for changes to the tables if it's a major claim. They do have the ability to detect changes to be tables.
Reverting the parameters back to stock tables would would avoid this.

We've been through this already at BMW between a tuned car and a BMS piggy back. The tuned car didn't show any traces of tampering or changes with their tools they have in house. The piggy due to forced changes caused errors that were saved to the DME. A trained tech can tell through those errors that something was forcing changes within the DME causing those issues. Most guys don't really care to be honest to even dig into it.

I could be wrong with my theory but this is what was explained to me and what we found during our testing with a few friends at BMW.

I've known two friends who were fully modified and had their engines fail due to mechanical failure. Despite all the bolt-ons and flash tune, the crate engine and labor was covered under warranty.
Very good info. thanks bud
BTW I am in LOVE with your exhaust set up.
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2016, 10:55 PM   #22
mike@x-ph.com
Joint Chiefs of Staff
mike@x-ph.com's Avatar
United_States
23791
Rep
190,150
Posts

Drives: 07-335/12-328/18-M4/21-M4CP
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (23)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13M5F10 View Post
This is what I was told by several foremen and an engineer.

Technicians do not have the tools to detect changes to the DME nor is it part of their scope to do so during routine warranty and maintenance claims. However, there may be a requirement to send the readings to an engineer that will check for changes to the tables if it's a major claim. They do have the ability to detect changes to be tables.
Reverting the parameters back to stock tables would would avoid this.

We've been through this already at BMW between a tuned car and a BMS piggy back. The tuned car didn't show any traces of tampering or changes with their tools they have in house. The piggy due to forced changes caused errors that were saved to the DME. A trained tech can tell through those errors that something was forcing changes within the DME causing those issues. Most guys don't really care to be honest to even dig into it.

I could be wrong with my theory but this is what was explained to me and what we found during our testing with a few friends at BMW.

I've known two friends who were fully modified and had their engines fail due to mechanical failure. Despite all the bolt-ons and flash tune, the crate engine and labor was covered under warranty.

My answer was to a hypothetical question " Can they detect if you did not flash back to stock"

the answer is yes they can detect it easily. If you go back to stock, it will still be detectable but will need more work.
Keep in mind that the ECU will register every time something has been written or edited

Will they go to that extent? No but that was not the question

As for the piggy vs flash argument, as you have mentioned it has been done to death. The way i see it, piggy will be much harder to detect because ECU thinks it is running stock boost, some agree other don't.

At the end of the day, it does not matter because out of thousands of tuned cars no BMW dealership went to that extent. Flash or piggy, go back to stock before your dealership visit and you are safe
__________________
Check out our current sale by clicking on this link!
https://x-ph.com/sale/

Phone number 702-494-9435
Appreciate 1
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:07 AM.




m5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST