Hockey Stick coming?

[claycourter01]

I am very interested in seeing the 2018 M5 when it arrives; but I'm wondering whether it may also have the "hockey stick" design on the side, following the design of the current 5 series, which I believe looks terrible.

I like the side vent that the current M5 has, and hope that is kept, as a way of differentiating from the 5 series.

I also don't understand the "quilted" leather in the 5 series and hope that doesn't migrate to the M5.

How likely do you believe it is that the new M5 will have the hockey stick?

[Ex_Stig]

Sadly, I think the hockey stick design will be on the M5. I am also not a fan of it, nor of the cross stitched seats.

[VoytekM5]

looks like chit on the 7 series... wtf were they thinking.

[josec70]

BMW stopped thinking quite a while ago particularly in regards to the ///M cars.

[claycourter01]

Originally Posted by GNALUZU

Sadly, I think the hockey stick design will be on the M5. I am also not a fan of it, nor of the cross stitched seats.

I just noticed these renderings of the 2018 M5, which have a side vent rather than hockey stick, so perhaps we may hold on to the small hope that they are accurate:

http://g30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1378390

[RPiM5]

That is a huge unknown still if the next M5 will include the hockey stick on the fender. I personally don't believe that the next M5 will have it, as it would be too much like the regular G30. Then again, it's really anyone's guess at this point. I personally feel that BMW ///M has lost its freakin' mind by using another Twin Turbo V8 on the next M5 along with strong rumors that it will use an Automatic Transmission. All ///M products from here on out are being designed to meet market predictions and sales numbers rather than just saying "fuck it" let's design something truly unique and special because we think it will be cool, like they did in that board meeting back in the early 2000's when they reached a unanimous decision to design a beautiful F1 V10 inspired engine for a 4-door luxury sedan. But whatever comes to market next year for the next M5, it will sell because the M5 legacy and branding is too strong for customers not to buy the next generation. I for one won't be one of them, or at least not until the LCi comes out with the Comp Package, but then there's so many other cars I'd rather own now and in the future than the next M5.

[josec70]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

That is a huge unknown still if the next M5 will include the hockey stick on the fender. I personally don't believe that the next M5 will have it, as it would be too much like the regular G30. Then again, it's really anyone's guess at this point. I personally feel that BMW ///M has lost its freakin' mind by using another Twin Turbo V8 on the next M5 along with strong rumors that it will use an Automatic Transmission. All ///M products from here on out are being designed to meet market predictions and sales numbers rather than just saying "fuck it" let's design something truly unique and special because we think it will be cool, like they did in that board meeting back in the early 2000's when they reached a unanimous decision to design a beautiful F1 V10 inspired engine for a 4-door luxury sedan. But whatever comes to market next year for the next M5, it will sell because the M5 legacy and branding is too strong for customers not to buy the next generation. I for one won't be one of them, or at least not until the LCi comes out with the Comp Package, but then there's so many other cars I'd rather own now and in the future than the next M5.

Spot on .....

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by josec70

Spot on .....

Boom!

[josec70]

LOL

[m5 guy]

Classic board room scenarios...

[Fundguy1]

Bet it does.

[Earthmaster]

But honestly guys... where can you possibly go with a new gas engine? The s63 is basically a supercar engine already. Even if they came up with some kind of ~4.0 TT V8 Its unlikely to produce more power then the current S63. They would have to make a bigger engine and we all know car manufacturers are moving towards smaller for fuel economy. The days of bigger engines are long and gone the s63 was the peak. I think it would have been worse if they came out with a smaller engine for the new M5, fanboys would have revolted. Add to the fact that it probably wouldn't be better then the S63 why even bother? You know this engine is just a place holder for the next hybrid M5... So think logically about it. The M5 is much more of a GT cruiser then any type of super sedan. With the AWD to put down the power it becomes much more usable and practical. Will drive sales for sure and I think BMW will be very happy with the next rendition. Its unfortunate but it makes no logical sense to have a new engine in the next M5 with hybrids and electric performance coming to consumers in the next decade. From an engineering and R&D perspective this was very cheap and makes alot of financial sense. Personally I may consider the next M5 due to the AWD capability as comon.... traction is such a huge problem with this car most of the time it feels useless at tuned levels unlesss your at a drag strip. Although the car looks quite similar to the current f10 and thats a bit of a let down.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Earthmaster

But honestly guys...

I completely disagree on everything you just said except for your last point of the F90 looking too similar to the current F10, and yes that is another reason why I am not excited about the next M5.

I feel like you and people like you do not do your own research and just accept the norms of what auto manufacturers say you should like.

First of all, internal combustion engines still have a long way to go. I am a huge proponent of all Electric Vehicles but I equally believe in the viability and the potential for fossil fuel burning internal combustion engines.

In reality, yes BMW and M Division totally have it within their power and financial scope to develop an all new and exciting M engine just for the M5, but does that make the best financial sense? Probably not, but one could also argue that none of the previous generation of ///M engines made any financial sense either. M could have developed what I believe could have been the next great engine and would have surpassed all competitors. They could have developed my idea of a 3.0L Twin Turbo V10 that revs to 8,000rpm and with 25% better fuel economy than the S63tu, making around 600hp. Torque isn't everything, especially when you are able to reduce the weight of the car, Porsche knows this, and in case you haven't heard their new .2 GT3 just lapped an incredible 7:12s around the Ring without the use of turbochargers.

This is the direction the next M5 should have went:

- AWD: Fine, nothing wrong with AWD, except that it needs to not dramatically effect the overall weight of the car and it needs to not interfere with the placement of the engine in as low and far back from the front axle as possible.

- Engine: Like I said, 3.0L Twin Turbo V10 revving to 8,000rpm, making ~600hp, and 25% better fuel economy than S63tu. Torque will be limited to 550lbs/ft. Such an engine is completely within the realm of today's technology.

- Transmission: Maintain the DCT, use beefier clutches if you have to. I and many others like me have rebuilt our DCT's to hold 900lbs/ft with no problems. The number one reason why BMW says they want to use Torque Converter Automatics is because of the torque. Well then they should probably stop making engines that produce so much torque and find another way to go fast, like reducing weight.

- Weight: M Division will probably announce the next M5 with a curb weight of around 4,400lbs. The same as the last M5 but with AWD now on the F90. They will say, "but oh, we were able to include AWD and yet have the same weight as the previous generation." I think this is bullshit, weight needs to come down on the car overall. At the very minimum, the next M5 should have these weight saving measures:

- Carbon Fiber Roof
- Carbon Fiber Hood
- Carbon Fiber Trunk
- Carbon Fiber for all 4 doors
- Carbon Fiber Drive Shaft
- Carbon Fiber Strut Braces
- Aluminum Subframes

Even my 2017 Chevy Bolt EV has every door and the hood made out of aluminum for Gods sake.

At this point, M is making excuses and nothing else, just to save money. The bean counters have taken control of Motorsport.

There's other companies like Mercedes. Mercedes is not only investing heavily in the near future with 11 different full electric and hybrid electric models to their line up but they are also continuing to invest heavily in internal combustion engines far into the future.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/450720/m...ong-way-to-go/

Then there's Koenigsegg who has developed the worlds first working camless engine. Which gives 47 percent more torque, 45 percent more power, uses 15 percent less fuel, and 35 percent fewer emissions.


http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...tion-in-china/

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...out-camshafts/

It's not that BMW can't develop these technologies, it's that they WON'T. Instead they established their i Division as the future and use their best talent and innovation in that Division now. M Division has come second.

Don't get me wrong, it's like I have before time and again, the next M5 will in fact be great. It won't be slow at all, especially with AWD, but it will be lacking what all previous generations had, bespokeness and character. I've already driven the new G30 530i and 540i and I can tell you that it's not really a giant leap up from the F10 overall. And in terms of overall design, they played it too safe for me to really fall in love with it. It looks too similar to the F10 in many respects. It's funny also, because every time I talk to BMW executives and corporate representatives and I tell them my grievances, they always tell me the same thing, just wait and see, just wait and see. I would loved to be surprised if they did something completely unexpected and added KERS or Active Aero to the next M5, but I doubt they'll ever do that.

[Earthmaster]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

I completely disagree on everything you just said except for your last point of the F90 looking too similar to the current F10, and yes that is another reason why I am not excited about the next M5.

I feel like you and people like you do not do your own research and just accept the norms of what auto manufacturers say you should like.

First of all, internal combustion engines still have a long way to go. I am a huge proponent of all Electric Vehicles but I equally believe in the viability and the potential for fossil fuel burning internal combustion engines.

In reality, yes BMW and M Division totally have it within their power and financial scope to develop an all new and exciting M engine just for the M5, but does that make the best financial sense? Probably not, but one could also argue that none of the previous generation of ///M engines made any financial sense either. M could have developed what I believe could have been the next great engine and would have surpassed all competitors. They could have developed my idea of a 3.0L Twin Turbo V10 that revs to 8,000rpm and with 25% better fuel economy than the S63tu, making around 600hp. Torque isn't everything, especially when you are able to reduce the weight of the car, Porsche knows this, and in case you haven't heard their new .2 GT3 just lapped an incredible 7:12s around the Ring without the use of turbochargers.

This is the direction the next M5 should have went:

- AWD: Fine, nothing wrong with AWD, except that it needs to not dramatically effect the overall weight of the car and it needs to not interfere with the placement of the engine in as low and far back from the front axle as possible.

- Engine: Like I said, 3.0L Twin Turbo V10 revving to 8,000rpm, making ~600hp, and 25% better fuel economy than S63tu. Torque will be limited to 550lbs/ft. Such an engine is completely within the realm of today's technology.

- Transmission: Maintain the DCT, use beefier clutches if you have to. I and many others like me have rebuilt our DCT's to hold 900lbs/ft with no problems. The number one reason why BMW says they want to use Torque Converter Automatics is because of the torque. Well then they should probably stop making engines that produce so much torque and find another way to go fast, like reducing weight.

- Weight: M Division will probably announce the next M5 with a curb weight of around 4,400lbs. The same as the last M5 but with AWD now on the F90. They will say, "but oh, we were able to include AWD and yet have the same weight as the previous generation." I think this is bullshit, weight needs to come down on the car overall. At the very minimum, the next M5 should have these weight saving measures:

- Carbon Fiber Roof
- Carbon Fiber Hood
- Carbon Fiber Trunk
- Carbon Fiber for all 4 doors
- Carbon Fiber Drive Shaft
- Carbon Fiber Strut Braces
- Aluminum Subframes

Even my 2017 Chevy Bolt EV has every door and the hood made out of aluminum for Gods sake.

At this point, M is making excuses and nothing else, just to save money. The bean counters have taken control of Motorsport.

There's other companies like Mercedes. Mercedes is not only investing heavily in the near future with 11 different full electric and hybrid electric models to their line up but they are also continuing to invest heavily in internal combustion engines far into the future.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/450720/m...ong-way-to-go/

Then there's Koenigsegg who has developed the worlds first working camless engine. Which gives 47 percent more torque, 45 percent more power, uses 15 percent less fuel, and 35 percent fewer emissions.


http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...tion-in-china/

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...out-camshafts/

It's not that BMW can't develop these technologies, it's that they WON'T. Instead they established their i Division as the future and use their best talent and innovation in that Division now. M Division has come second.

Don't get me wrong, it's like I have before time and again, the next M5 will in fact be great. It won't be slow at all, especially with AWD, but it will be lacking what all previous generations had, bespokeness and character. I've already driven the new G30 530i and 540i and I can tell you that it's not really a giant leap up from the F10 overall. And in terms of overall design, they played it too safe for me to really fall in love with it. It looks too similar to the F10 in many respects. It's funny also, because every time I talk to BMW executives and corporate representatives and I tell them my grievances, they always tell me the same thing, just wait and see, just wait and see. I would loved to be surprised if they did something completely unexpected and added KERS or Active Aero to the next M5, but I doubt they'll ever do that.

Do research? on what? BMW is a business and they are at the peak of their success. I just don't think investment into a 3L v10 would bring much long term value when the next M5 beyond this one will be a hybrid for sure. What purpose would your suggested engine be? Theres no leveraging it beyond that. Yes I agree this new m5 is probably a let down in terms of advancement but for the long term planning of which I think you haven't considered much it makes sense not to re-invent the wheel. I would like to see this one have cylinder deactivation like the corvette to be better on fuel economy because BMW is leaning to make a car for the masses. I'm not saying this is good or exciting I'm saying this is what makes sense... Most ppl aren't enthusiasts and even fewer track their car... BMW has become less of a niche luxury sportscar brand and more of brand for any person as long as you got the money.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Earthmaster

Do research? on what? BMW is a business and they are at the peak of their success. I just don't think investment into a 3L v10 would bring much long term value when the next M5 beyond this one will be a hybrid for sure. What purpose would your suggested engine be? Theres no leveraging it beyond that. Yes I agree this new m5 is probably a let down in terms of advancement but for the long term planning of which I think you haven't considered much it makes sense not to re-invent the wheel. I would like to see this one have cylinder deactivation like the corvette to be better on fuel economy because BMW is leaning to make a car for the masses. I'm not saying this is good or exciting I'm saying this is what makes sense... Most ppl aren't enthusiasts and even fewer track their car... BMW has become less of a niche luxury sportscar brand and more of brand for any person as long as you got the money.

Of course such an engine won't bring long term value. What M engine has? Besides the now re-used S63 engine? What purpose would such an engine be? You have obviously never driven an E60 M5 with an upgraded exhaust and headers, accelerating all the way up to 8,250rpm before. Lol! I do agree that most people are not enthusiasts, and for 99.9% of buyers out there, what's under the hood does not make a difference, as long as it goes fast. But if that's the logic, then why not just buy a Tesla P100D and enjoy 0-60 times of 2.2s all day long? Why buy an M5, E63S, or RS7 then? And, if I am reading this correctly, you are saying you wouldn't enjoy a Koenigsegg-like engine that gets gives 47 percent more torque, 45 percent more power, uses 15 percent less fuel, and 35 percent fewer emissions in the next M5? Or any other engine that provides for more driver enjoyment than the S63? Is their a business case for driver enjoyment or is it all about sales now? Or maybe I'm wrong, it's always been about sales, and if BMW had the technology to keep using the same engine back in 2002, would we have ever seen a mass production 5.0L V10?

[Earthmaster]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Of course such an engine won't bring long term value. What M engine has? Besides the now re-used S63 engine? What purpose would such an engine be? You have obviously never driven an E60 M5 with an upgraded exhaust and headers, accelerating all the way up to 8,250rpm before. Lol! I do agree that most people are not enthusiasts, and for 99.9% of buyers out there, what's under the hood does not make a difference, as long as it goes fast. But if that's the logic, then why not just buy a Tesla P100D and enjoy 0-60 times of 2.2s all day long? Why buy an M5, E63S, or RS7 then? And, if I am reading this correctly, you are saying you wouldn't enjoy a Koenigsegg-like engine that gets gives 47 percent more torque, 45 percent more power, uses 15 percent less fuel, and 35 percent fewer emissions in the next M5? Or any other engine that provides for more driver enjoyment than the S63? Is their a business case for driver enjoyment or is it all about sales now? Or maybe I'm wrong, it's always been about sales, and if BMW had the technology to keep using the same engine back in 2002, would we have ever seen a mass production 5.0L V10?

I think for everyone its definitely sales now... I'm not exactly thrilled about their new offerings tbh. However, I can see why they are doing it... Have you seen their financials recently? they are killing it.

[josec70]

///M is rooted in appealing to the enthusiast .... I think we all understand this is a business but it certainly doesn't mean we have to like the direction they've chosen to go with the ///M line. I don't want to speculate on the F90 M5 but early previews are indicative of an LCI rather then something new. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[JMD]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

...Is their a business case for driver enjoyment or is it all about sales now? Or maybe I'm wrong, it's always been about sales, and if BMW had the technology to keep using the same engine back in 2002, would we have ever seen a mass production 5.0L V10?

It's all about business! BMW has billions,..upon billions of dollars! But they don't have billions of dollars to waste! Every decision is made with ROI in mind. If the ROI makes sense,..it sees production,..if not,...it's just a pipe dream!

BMW has the resources to easily give us a factory 800hp vehicle,...the question is, will it meet current corporate CAFE,...longevity (it' has to last at least 50,000 miles -...warranty), and it has to meet the price point of M5 supporters.

Perhaps we should ask ourselves this,...would we pay $150,000 for an M5?,....$185,000,....$200k? Look at the number of M5's sold per given model vs the number of say,...Bugatti Veyrons! Who has better ROI in the long run? BMW or Bugatti? Who has higher R&D costs? Who has greater risks? Which can you daily drive,....which is faster? Which can you park almost anywhere, etc, etc?

[CitrinBlack_X]

It would only make sense for the F90 M5 will have the traditional horizontally placed M5 fender vent close to the design of the E60 and F10. Would seem kind of stupid to have that generic vertical style blade vent the regular cars have.

[NlckyBlack]

The current new 5 series looks uninspiring. Looks just like the F10, and i feel the new m5 will just be as boring. I may go over to amg and get a 63 but that also looks like every other car in the MB line up. Cars aren't what they used to be unfortunately

[josec70]

^^^spot on ...