Advice desperately needed!

[infamxkris]

Hey guys this is my first time posting in the m5 threads. A little about myself, I am 23 years old and I've owned an e92 m3 before trading it in and making the jump to a 2013 f10 m5. For those wondering I purchase all my cars myself and don't seek any parental assistance which is something I am proud of. Anyway my whole experience with bmw has changed for the worse after making this decision. So let me brief you on what I am currently dealing with.

I bought my f10 m5 about March or April of 2014 with about 6k miles. I bought this at a bmw dealership as well as making the deal with a family friend that is actually a sales agent at this said location. So I felt very comfortable making this purchase as far as trust went or so I thought....

Red flags started waving in my head as I was about to make the purchase. First I asked if they could CPO the car and the sales agent (my family friend) as well as the manager told me it is not possible to CPO the car as they said it was "too new". I had a hard time believing this because the car was a 2013 model with 6k miles in which I'm buying a year later in 2014. Mind you I've had my 2009 e92 m3 CPO with 11k miles when I had bought that car back in 2010. Even though it sounded fishy I gave them the benefit of the doubt and brushed it off. After buying the car I called bmw na to ask if my car was indeed unable to be certified. They told me to my surprise that my car was definitely able to be CPOed. This should have been the first sign of many bad things to come.

So the next day as I am walking to my car I notice the front bumper is noticeably a different color in a certain angle. So I went back to the dealership expressing my concerns. They told me they had no idea and that the previous owner might have resprayed it for rock chips. Oh, I forgot to mention the previous owner was a former sales manager at this same dealership who they claim got rid of the car to get into an m6. So after much talking they decided to cover the cost to respray it, only catch is that I need to bring it to a shop they work with. On top of all that my car has been eating oil every 500-1k miles. They advised I bring to service to get it topped off every time and that this is normal for this car.

Okay so fast forward a couple months and my luck has it where I get rear ended on the highway. So I get it towed to bmw the same place I bought the car and they had it sent out to a body shop they send all their cars for paint work. So after two long months I get my car back and the front bumper they were supposed to take care of is now a totally different shade... As you can imagine I was not happy...

So I bring it back to the dealership in which the manager admitted to being embarrassed of the work done. This did not make me feel very comfortable as they were the one that worked on the rear end of the car as well from the accident which only leads me to believe the whole car is a different shade. Anyway the manager decided he will send it to another shop where he promised it will be fixed once and for all.

Fast forward 2 weeks and I get a call from the owner of the body shop the car is at. He asks me if there was work ever done on the left side of the car (drivers side) and I told him no this is the first time I am getting work done. He then proceeds to tell me that one of his workers went to find the VIN sticker located on the pillars of our cars when you open the drivers door and said it was missing.

At this point I am furious... I called bmw na to ask what is going on and if there is anything that could be done. They told me I would have to deal with the dealership that had sold me the car. I call the dealership and they have no idea what I am talking about and directed me to service. So I go to my service department where the manager there tells me that it could have come off if somebody has pressure washed it. Now to me this is very hard to believe as this is not a sticker that just pulls off... And I can't imagine someone pressure washing that one spot for an extended amount of time and run the risk of getting water in the interior of the car. It just didn't make sense to me at all...

I guess what I want to know is considering I had work done on the car because of my recent accident and also the fact I've had the car for several months and just now I am finding this out is there anything I can do? I just want the peace of mind of knowing the car was not hit before I had bought the car. Car fax was also clean when I had purchased it but I do know if you don't report it, it won't show on the car fax report. The previous owner being the former sales manager at this location I am sure he had ways of covering this up if in fact it was in a collision. So people of bimmerpost what advice can you give me and is there even anything I can do at this point? I really do feel like I will never buy another bmw again after this horrific experience...

I know this was an extremely long post but given the fact they lied about CPO, Front bumper being resprayed was not disclosed, previous owner being the former sales manager and now the VIN sticker being missing do you guys think this car was hit and was not disclosed to me prior to purchasing the car? I truly do feel they are trying to cover something... PLEASE HELP!!!

[m34SPD]

Sounds like the car was in an accident while the sales manager had it in his position and had it repaired before flipping it. It isn't uncommon for sales managers to drive cars and then sell them as used cars. I would get out of it if possible, but you might take a hit in trading it in.

[infamxkris]

Originally Posted by MMG640

Sounds like the car was in an accident while the sales manager had it in his position and had it repaired before flipping it. It isn't uncommon for sales managers to drive cars and then sell them as used cars. I would get out of it if possible, but you might take a hit in trading it in.

So there is nothing I can do but take the hit?.. There must be something I can do... Because I feel robbed and deceived by all this and don't think it's right and that someone should be liable for it.

[infamxkris]

Another thing is if it had been repaired wouldn't the pillar be a really expensive repair? As well as if the pillar had damage now it's a frame issue... How is any of this legal?

[Bönz]

Repairs will only show up on car fax if an insurance claim was made. If it was broadsided when driven by a sales manager (or any dealer employee) they would most likely just fix it and pay the shop directly. It's perfectly legal, but not disclosing this is certainly unethical.

[infamxkris]

Originally Posted by Bnz

Repairs will only show up on car fax if an insurance claim was made. If it was broadsided when driven by a sales manager (or any dealer employee) they would most likely just fix it and pay the shop directly. It's perfectly legal, but not disclosing this is certainly unethical.

Okay so I won't even be able to get an attorney or have a case going? I don't understand how you pay for a clean car but they hide the fact it's been hit and still get paid for a clean car. How is that legal?!?

[m34SPD]

Originally Posted by infamxkris

So there is nothing I can do but take the hit?.. There must be something I can do... Because I feel robbed and deceived by all this and don't think it's right and that someone should be liable for it.

You need to prove that the damage was caused by the dealer and sales manager, so you might have to hire an attorney and take the dealer to small claims court.

[cjackson1906]

First, I feel bad for you and I hope this gets resolved quickly. Second, I would try to work it out with the dealer. Start with face-to-face meetings with the general manager or owner of the dealership. If they refuse to meet with you or avoid you, send them a letter stating all of your concerns and recommended solutions. I would also get a statement from the last body shop person who worked on your car since he stated the car had previously been damaged. Finally, I would seek the advice/counsel of an auto dealer fraud attorney in your state. State laws vary in these sort of situations and it's best to get the advice that's relevant to your state and situation. i think you are in NY. I'm sure there are all sorts of auto dealer fraud attorneys in NY and I would contact the NY Bar Association or NY Attorney General's office for assistance. Hopefully this can be resolved without getting lawyers involved, but that may not be the case. Good luck.

Note: I'm assuming this is a BMW dealership and all of them hate bad press. You could follow in the footsteps of the Porsche guy on YouTube who waged a video campaign to shame Porsche into handling his situation in a reasonable fashion. I think it took him some months to get satisfaction but that's a method you could do on your own if they blow you off.

[M6-Coupe]

You need to hire an attorney. Selling a 2013 model car in 2014 with 6k miles on it without CPO is a big indicator that something was extremely wrong with that car and that is accident because they cannot Certified these cars. I got a 2013 650i in April 2013 and traded in 4 months later with 7k miles on it. Couple weeks later I went to the dealer for service of my M6 and saw that car was sitting in their lot with CPO sticker!

[rocky]

you should definitely hire a lawyer or at least spend an hour of his/her time to advise you. As a Calif lawyer who deals with contract disputes and fraud i see this all the time. you may have something here if there were certain representations made to you about the car that were in fact were false and the false statements were made knowing the falsity of the representations.....and that you relied on those representations to your detriment. this is called FRAUD. Punitive damages may apply here as well. You will have the burden of proof here to show each element of the cause of action. Hire a lawyer and pay him a couple hundred dollars to fire off a letter to let them know you are serious in pursuing the matter. keep us posted.

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by cjackson1906

First, I feel bad for you and I hope this gets resolved quickly. Second, I would try to work it out with the dealer. Start with face-to-face meetings with the general manager or owner of the dealership. If they refuse to meet with you or avoid you, send them a letter stating all of your concerns and recommended solutions. I would also get a statement from the last body shop person who worked on your car since he stated the car had previously been damaged. Finally, I would seek the advice/counsel of an auto dealer fraud attorney in your state. State laws vary in these sort of situations and it's best to get the advice that's relevant to your state and situation. i think you are in NY. I'm sure there are all sorts of auto dealer fraud attorneys in NY and I would contact the NY Bar Association or NY Attorney General's office for assistance. Hopefully this can be resolved without getting lawyers involved, but that may not be the case. Good luck.

Note: I'm assuming this is a BMW dealership and all of them hate bad press. You could follow in the footsteps of the Porsche guy on YouTube who waged a video campaign to shame Porsche into handling his situation in a reasonable fashion. I think it took him some months to get satisfaction but that's a method you could do on your own if they blow you off.

Agree, BMW does not want or like bad press and the dealerships are punished for bad sales feedback, both in terms of discounts as well as dealer incentives.

[halfbent]

Originally Posted by infamxkris

Hey guys this is my first time posting in the m5 threads. A little about myself, I am 23 years old and I've owned an e92 m3 before trading it in and making the jump to a 2013 f10 m5. For those wondering I purchase all my cars myself and don't seek any parental assistance which is something I am proud of. Anyway my whole experience with bmw has changed for the worse after making this decision. So let me brief you on what I am currently dealing with.

I bought my f10 m5 about March or April of 2014 with about 6k miles. I bought this at a bmw dealership as well as making the deal with a family friend that is actually a sales agent at this said location. So I felt very comfortable making this purchase as far as trust went or so I thought....

Red flags started waving in my head as I was about to make the purchase. First I asked if they could CPO the car and the sales agent (my family friend) as well as the manager told me it is not possible to CPO the car as they said it was "too new". I had a hard time believing this because the car was a 2013 model with 6k miles in which I'm buying a year later in 2014. Mind you I've had my 2009 e92 m3 CPO with 11k miles when I had bought that car back in 2010. Even though it sounded fishy I gave them the benefit of the doubt and brushed it off. After buying the car I called bmw na to ask if my car was indeed unable to be certified. They told me to my surprise that my car was definitely able to be CPOed. This should have been the first sign of many bad things to come.

So the next day as I am walking to my car I notice the front bumper is noticeably a different color in a certain angle. So I went back to the dealership expressing my concerns. They told me they had no idea and that the previous owner might have resprayed it for rock chips. Oh, I forgot to mention the previous owner was a former sales manager at this same dealership who they claim got rid of the car to get into an m6. So after much talking they decided to cover the cost to respray it, only catch is that I need to bring it to a shop they work with. On top of all that my car has been eating oil every 500-1k miles. They advised I bring to service to get it topped off every time and that this is normal for this car.

Okay so fast forward a couple months and my luck has it where I get rear ended on the highway. So I get it towed to bmw the same place I bought the car and they had it sent out to a body shop they send all their cars for paint work. So after two long months I get my car back and the front bumper they were supposed to take care of is now a totally different shade... As you can imagine I was not happy...

So I bring it back to the dealership in which the manager admitted to being embarrassed of the work done. This did not make me feel very comfortable as they were the one that worked on the rear end of the car as well from the accident which only leads me to believe the whole car is a different shade. Anyway the manager decided he will send it to another shop where he promised it will be fixed once and for all.

Fast forward 2 weeks and I get a call from the owner of the body shop the car is at. He asks me if there was work ever done on the left side of the car (drivers side) and I told him no this is the first time I am getting work done. He then proceeds to tell me that one of his workers went to find the VIN sticker located on the pillars of our cars when you open the drivers door and said it was missing.

At this point I am furious... I called bmw na to ask what is going on and if there is anything that could be done. They told me I would have to deal with the dealership that had sold me the car. I call the dealership and they have no idea what I am talking about and directed me to service. So I go to my service department where the manager there tells me that it could have come off if somebody has pressure washed it. Now to me this is very hard to believe as this is not a sticker that just pulls off... And I can't imagine someone pressure washing that one spot for an extended amount of time and run the risk of getting water in the interior of the car. It just didn't make sense to me at all...

I guess what I want to know is considering I had work done on the car because of my recent accident and also the fact I've had the car for several months and just now I am finding this out is there anything I can do? I just want the peace of mind of knowing the car was not hit before I had bought the car. Car fax was also clean when I had purchased it but I do know if you don't report it, it won't show on the car fax report. The previous owner being the former sales manager at this location I am sure he had ways of covering this up if in fact it was in a collision. So people of bimmerpost what advice can you give me and is there even anything I can do at this point? I really do feel like I will never buy another bmw again after this horrific experience...

I know this was an extremely long post but given the fact they lied about CPO, Front bumper being resprayed was not disclosed, previous owner being the former sales manager and now the VIN sticker being missing do you guys think this car was hit and was not disclosed to me prior to purchasing the car? I truly do feel they are trying to cover something... PLEASE HELP!!!

Did you purchase it with a CARFAX or similar? Maybe there is something you can pursue that way...

Good luck

[6spdterror]

First of all i will say that i am a sales manager at a Honda dealership and ive been in the industry for a while. NEVER buy a car like this non certified unless you do this for a living and know exactly what to look for. BMW and Porsche have one of the STRICTEST certification guidelines. For example, if the car had an aftermarket alarm, tune, exhaust or anything of the sort it cant be certified even if you remove it. If u ever missed a gear the DME records it and it cant be certified just to name a few. Most used BMWs and Porsches you see at a dealership arent certified, that doesnt mean theres something wrong with it but it does mean that it didnt pass the strict standards. In contrast the hondas that we certify here have to go through a 150 point inspection and the manufacturer is much less stringent with our cars.
Carfax also means nothing, if it wasnt reported to insurance then it wont be on carfax. Chances are the SM paid for it out of his own pocket. Hondas and BMWs both stamp their vins on every panel so if you see a missing vin tag you already know something was repaired. Theyre not really allowed to sell you a car with frame damage or they could get in trouble with the factory. First thing you should do is get in contact with the factory and do the thing that every dealership hates, report to BBB, yelp, dealerrater, google. We hate bad reviews and do everything in our power to fix it. If all else fails contact a lawyer. BTW was this Hassel BMW? I knew one of the managers that drove an MCB M5.

[stealth.pilot]

Sounds like your car has had extensive bodywork. You should get it documented by the body shop the car is at with photos.

Then have a conversation with the GM. And also pursue the Carfax warranty if you have one (I.e. If you actually paid for a Carfax on the car prior to purchase).

Finally go to a lawyer but if you do you will need documentation of their lies - ideally a paper trail of emails in which they wrote the things you say they told you prior to purchase.

My gut feel is that you are screwed here and have no recourse. It's just your word against theirs. My first two BMWs which I bought used around your age were also misrepresented by the BMW dealer and had bodywork done. Ever since then I have always bought new.

If you do buy used always get it independently inspected for bodywork and mechanical issues. They would have picked up the things the body shop told you. Now you know better.

[soooma]

Sad to hear

[Tanin]

Originally Posted by 6spdterror

If u ever missed a gear the DME records it and it cant be certified just to name a few.

BMW does have guidelines but that made me laugh.



My guess is the dealer didn't want to CPO because they would have to admit to damage and repair work being done.

I attached the CPO certification list from a couple years ago for reference.

* infamxkris - What a crappy situation to deal with. Sorry.

Not all dealers are crooks. Don't give up on the marque yet.

[6spdterror]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

Sounds like your car has had extensive bodywork. You should get it documented by the body shop the car is at with photos.

Then have a conversation with the GM. And also pursue the Carfax warranty if you have one (I.e. If you actually paid for a Carfax on the car prior to purchase).

Finally go to a lawyer but if you do you will need documentation of their lies - ideally a paper trail of emails in which they wrote the things you say they told you prior to purchase.

My gut feel is that you are screwed here and have no recourse. It's just your word against theirs. My first two BMWs which I bought used around your age were also misrepresented by the BMW dealer and had bodywork done. Ever since then I have always bought new.

If you do buy used always get it independently inspected for bodywork and mechanical issues. They would have picked up the things the body shop told you. Now you know better.

100% correct. When youre buying a car this expensive you should have an independent inspection done or you can even invest in an electronic paint gauge (one that also reads aluminum) to help you identify if there was work done

Originally Posted by Tanin

BMW does have guidelines but that made me laugh.



My guess is the dealer didn't want to CPO because they would have to admit to damage and repair work being done.

I attached the CPO certification list from a couple years ago for reference.

* infamxkris - What a crappy situation to deal with. Sorry.

Not all dealers are crooks. Don't give up on the marque yet.

Curious as to why that made u laugh..

[Tanin]

Originally Posted by 6spdterror

100% correct. When youre buying a car this expensive you should have an independent inspection done or you can even invest in an electronic paint gauge (one that also reads aluminum) to help you identify if there was work done

Curious as to why that made u laugh..

No offense, but your statement that missing a shift would make a vehicle ineligible for CPO was amusing in an uninformed way.

[6spdterror]

Originally Posted by Tanin

No offense, but your statement that missing a shift would make a vehicle ineligible for CPO was amusing in an uninformed way.

One of the sales managers from my dealership just picked up a used 997 turbo from a dealership and when he was searching around that was the explanation we were given by the porsche dealership, unless you work for a porsche dealership and hold a position higher than detailer...no offense taken. The nissan dealer down the block also wont certify a GTR based on how many launches were done on the tranny. When youre in this business you have access to a lot more info than is made available to the general public. Thanks for your insight though.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by 6spdterror

One of the sales managers from my dealership just picked up a used 997 turbo from a dealership and when he was searching around that was the explanation we were given by the porsche dealership, unless you work for a porsche dealership and hold a position higher than detailer...no offense taken. The nissan dealer down the block also wont certify a GTR based on how many launches were done on the tranny. When youre in this business you have access to a lot more info than is made available to the general public. Thanks for your insight though.

This is well known with Porsche. However BMW is less strict.

[6spdterror]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

This is well known with Porsche. However BMW is less strict.

Agreed. BMW is less strict than Porsche but still strict! We sell hondas but pretty much every manager here drives BMW! (shhh!)

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by 6spdterror

Agreed. BMW is less strict than Porsche but still strict! We sell hondas but pretty much every manager here drives BMW! (shhh!)

Yes here are some threads on how strict BMWs CPO standards are.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261517

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=745437

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=401904

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/arc.../t-530154.html

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=352694