UPDATE!!! German tuner LEIB Engineering cracked the F-series DME last week!!!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

You'll still only do 199mph because there is another limiter on the DCT set at 199mph. The 30 Year Edition M5 has no limiter on the engine and is still limited to 199mph.

If they have cracked this thing, they might be able to remove the DCT limiter as well...

[M5Rlz]

I wonder if they'll post tangible proof online for us guys overseas to see.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Boss330

If they have cracked this thing, they might be able to remove the DCT limiter as well...

Let's hope so.

[wrsbmw]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

You'll still only do 199mph because there is another limiter on the DCT set at 199mph. The 30 Year Edition M5 has no limiter on the engine and is still limited to 199mph.

I would be happy with 185 like in the Joe Walsh song. I don't want to do much more than that on the roads I can get the car that high on.

[DrewM5]

Maybe a bit off topic here, but I still can't undersatnd why BMW won't allow you access to the DME. If it were my decision, I would allow any owner a key to open their specific DME in exchange for a full release of the warranty for any damage to the drivetrain that could have been caused, directly or indirectly, from any modification to the DME. Now you have a bunch of very happy owbers who are willing to risk the warranty coverage for a tune and you have some very fast M cars out there with a better chance of smiking the competiton. All good for BMW and M. And finally, you will get to sell some new engines every once in a while to the bozo who blew his up with a bad tune. I am not seeing the downside?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by DrewM5

Maybe a bit off topic here, but I still can't undersatnd why BMW won't allow you access to the DME. If it were my decision, I would allow any owner a key to open their specific DME in exchange for a full release of the warranty for any damage to the drivetrain that could have been caused, directly or indirectly, from any modification to the DME. Now you have a bunch of very happy owbers who are willing to risk the warranty coverage for a tune and you have some very fast M cars out there with a better chance of smiking the competiton. All good for BMW and M. And finally, you will get to sell some new engines every once in a while to the bozo who blew his up with a bad tune. I am not seeing the downside?

The possible downside (to BMW) is a load of broken down BMW's that is bad for reputation... And there is no way BMW would be held totally blameless in the media and public opinion, even though it wasn't their fault when something went wrong after a "homemade tune" blew up... People would just see a BMW with smoke pouring out from the engine

There is also the matter that manufacturers are bound by law (at least in the EU) to have anti-tampering measurements in place to avoid modifications that affect emissions.

[DrewM5]

I am not sure about the emissions laws, but you could certainly leave those locked with a basic lock (like they have on the E60). I doubt the law requires a set level of tamper resistance. Also, I don't hink this translates to multiple smoking M5s.

[Boss330]

Latest info from LEIB Engineering after talking with them:

• They do NOT use press tunes or any other software from BMW for tuning. This was a point that they stressed as very important to know (they had read the forums... )
  
• The current process involves them having to have access to the DME for 1-2 weeks and is very strongly secured and needs a lot of equipment and processing power and time.
  
• One of their main goals at this point in time is also to keep the dme protected against other tuning companies, which for sure will try to copy their software. This means that their tunes also are encrypted and nott accessible for other tuners.
  
• The other tuners, who also can do the F-series, will be delivered directly by LEIB Engineering.

I will quite possibly meet them later in August and might be able to report more then

[wrsbmw]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Latest info from LEIB Engineering after talking with them:

The current process involves them having to have access to the DME for 1-2 weeks and is very strongly secured and needs a lot of equipment and processing power and time.

Probably a show stopper for many.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by wrsbmw

Probably a show stopper for many.

They are developing a easier process but don't know if it will work yet or when they will have that method ready.

[M5Rlz]

Not sure why they would want to keep other tuners out... They lose the entire US market when given a proprietary software like setup they could reap benefits on markets they wouldn't have had access too.

License it out to each tuner for say 50k-100k (figure there are 10+ tuners, I cant imagine they'd make that much doing flash tunes for just the euro market alone)

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by 335iRlz

Not sure why they would want to keep other tuners out... They lose the entire US market when given a proprietary software like setup they could reap benefits on markets they wouldn't have had access too.

License it out to each tuner for say 50k-100k (figure there are 10+ tuners, I cant imagine they'd make that much doing flash tunes for just the euro market alone)

I think that information was in my post

•The other tuners, who also can do the F-series, will be delivered directly by LEIB Engineering

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by DrewM5

I am not sure about the emissions laws, but you could certainly leave those locked with a basic lock (like they have on the E60). I doubt the law requires a set level of tamper resistance. Also, I don't hink this translates to multiple smoking M5s.

You can't separate engine tuning from emissions... Emissions is a direct product of engine mapping. Change the timing, fuelling, boost etc and emissions are immediately affected...

Obviously EU law doesn't say that it needs to be at the high level of encryption BMW seems to have chosen for the F-series.

The multiple smoking BMW's was a scenario that you possibly would see a bit more if each owner is given a key that gives access to the DME. Some/many owners would then probably choose to buy online tuner software and develop their own tunes...

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Boss330

They are developing a easier process but don't know if it will work yet or when they will have that method ready.

It's what I thought . The encryption is not broken , they are just bench flashing the ROM by soldering to the ECU board thus it taking two weeks . No way in hell am I letting someone do that to my ECU.

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I think that information was in my post

oh I thought they were going to encrypt how they did it? And the tuners were just shipping their cars to them?

Clarify that part for me

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

It's what I thought . The encryption is not broken , they are just bench flashing the ROM by soldering to the ECU board thus it taking two weeks . No way in hell am I letting someone do that to my ECU.

Explain that lol

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by 335iRlz

Explain that lol

They are taking the ECU apart and directly accessing the memory and changing parameters thus avoiding the encryption . So they look up a table for target AFR's and boost and then change them . Knowing where the tables are , how the ECU will react etc still takes awhile that's why it takes so long to tune one car . A very brute force approach if you will and likely the only one that ever will be available for the M5/6 .

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by 335iRlz

oh I thought they were going to encrypt how they did it? And the tuners were just shipping their cars to them?

Clarify that part for me

From what I understood, they will provide the other tuners either with the process (for a fee of course) or they will provide them with the flashed DME's ready to use.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

It's what I thought . The encryption is not broken , they are just bench flashing the ROM by soldering to the ECU board thus it taking two weeks . No way in hell am I letting someone do that to my ECU.

That might very well be the case. They still need the car after the modified DME has been installed though. The DME still has the stock BMW software programmed after they have done their thing. The tune is only installed when the DME is in the car.

They currently have three methods to this:

1. The cclient comes to us with the car, we need the time of max. 2 and a half weeks to get the DME( ‘s) programmed.

2. The client ship the DME ( ‘s) to us, and after 1 to max. 2 weeks the DME ( ‘s) returns to the client (not tuned). After that the client has to drive with his car to us, to get the tune done. (This will take approximately 1 – 2 day’s)

3. We buy a new DME, and after 1 to max. 2 weeks the client has to drive with his car to us, to get the tune done. (This will take approximately 1 – 2 day’s)

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

They are taking the ECU apart and directly accessing the memory and changing parameters thus avoiding the encryption . So they look up a table for target AFR's and boost and then change them . Knowing where the tables are , how the ECU will react etc still takes awhile that's why it takes so long to tune one car . A very brute force approach if you will and likely the only one that ever will be available for the M5/6 .

That's not quite how it works it seems.

They do work with the DME in their workshop, but the DME still has the stock software when it goes back in the car. It's only when the DME is back in the car that they start the tuning process/uploading the new maps etc.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Boss330

That's not quite how it works it seems.

They do work with the DME in their workshop, but the DME still has the stock software when it goes back in the car. It's only when the DME is back in the car that they start the tuning process/uploading the new maps etc.

Then they are physically adding another access path to the memory that they can exploit later . Still wayyyyy more invasive than I'm interested in .

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Then they are physically adding another access path to the memory that they can exploit later . Still wayyyyy more invasive than I'm interested in .

So basically where one might sneak a fiber probe camera under a locked door to have a look around [flash tuning], this is akin to a battering ram through a wall and making your own door