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      01-20-2015, 05:08 AM   #67
I2el3ell
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Same thing PP-Performance is doing now since when?
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      01-20-2015, 05:11 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by I2el3ell
Same thing PP-Performance is doing now since when?
PP was the modified press file and a piggyback . huge difference .
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      01-20-2015, 05:11 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greentrbo95gst View Post
Some pay this much for Gruppe M intakes and gain close to nothing. We finally have control over timing and fuel. Let's get excited people.
This is what i have been saying. The same people here crying about 3k for tune are the same ones paying over 2k for exhaust and and 2k for bs intakes that provide next to nothing in gains. i seriously think if the tune was $500, some people will still complain it should be $250

The concept of a company making profit from RD is lost of some people. I am yet to see a business stay running by offering their product for free
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Last edited by Falcao; 01-20-2015 at 05:18 AM..
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      01-20-2015, 08:05 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Falcao View Post
This is what i have been saying. The same people here crying about 3k for tune are the same ones paying over 2k for exhaust and and 2k for bs intakes that provide next to nothing in gains. i seriously think if the tune was $500, some people will still complain it should be $250

The concept of a company making profit from RD is lost of some people. I am yet to see a business stay running by offering their product for free
I think they should charge, you rich guys $5,000 for the tune, the same people here complaining, spend close to 5 grand on wheels that provide next to nothing in gains. Heehee

If you go to McDonald's and you're driving a $100k car, guess what? The price of your happy meal goes up 300%.

Poor AMS, Those tuners like ESS, Mike Benvo etc. selling tunes for less than a $1,000, arent making a profit.
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      01-20-2015, 09:54 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Unklejoe View Post
AMS is probably one of the best shops in the United States and has a reputation to uphold. I'm sure they wouldn't release a tune under their name if it was going to cause problems.

In the end, all gas engines work on pretty much the same fundamentals. It's just a matter of finding out the MBT sweet spot and such. There's nothing really "special" about the BMW motor that makes the process any different.

Once the load system of the ECU is understood, it should be like any other car.
Ehhhh one of the best? For Japanese imports I'd agree. For BMW, I'll patiently wait from the sideline.
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      01-20-2015, 10:11 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V1.47fan View Post
I think they should charge, you rich guys $5,000 for the tune, the same people here complaining, spend close to 5 grand on wheels that provide next to nothing in gains. Heehee

If you go to McDonald's and you're driving a $100k car, guess what? The price of your happy meal goes up 300%.

Poor AMS, Those tuners like ESS, Mike Benvo etc. selling tunes for less than a $1,000, arent making a profit.
Does ESS offer a ECU reflash for the Fxx cars for under 1K?

Huge difference in a piggyback which is the same hardware for any car, but with different settings depending which car it's used on. Doing a full ECU flash on the Fxx currently involves paying a supplier (like BR Performance in Belgium) for the solution to break encryption and then R&D in rewriting the software to tune the car.

But, of course over time cost usually comes down, especially if these costs can be divided on a large number of sales. Like on the ESS E-Tronic tuner, which is the exact same hardware for all of the cars they offer it for. Many might even have the same software settings. And anyway, there are only very few parametres that can be adjusted on such a product so the R&D time/cost is just a fraction of doing a ECU flash...

IMO, a piggyback is like the dollar menu at McDonalds when a ECU flash is like having a 8 course meal at a fancy restaurant

Last edited by Boss330; 01-20-2015 at 10:18 AM..
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      01-20-2015, 10:50 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post

IMO, a piggyback is like the dollar menu at McDonalds when a ECU flash is like having a 8 course meal at a fancy restaurant
Great analogy. Seriously though, anyone who still believes a piggyback is better though needs to think seriously about why so many cars have had drivetrain malfunction issues and what this will do to the cars in the long run.
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      01-20-2015, 11:11 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V1.47fan View Post
I think they should charge, you rich guys $5,000 for the tune, the same people here complaining, spend close to 5 grand on wheels that provide next to nothing in gains. Heehee

If you go to McDonald's and you're driving a $100k car, guess what? The price of your happy meal goes up 300%.

Poor AMS, Those tuners like ESS, Mike Benvo etc. selling tunes for less than a $1,000, arent making a profit.

Relax peasant

First of all, no one said anything about 5k for tune. We are talking about 3k that everyone is crying about so let's stay on topic. Wheels and tires matter and matter a whole lot due to unsprung wheel weight and performance of tires. I would gladly pay 5k for wheels that weigh 19lb per corner and super sticky performance tires that deliver maximum grip per corner. My super light 5k wheels and tires probably give more performance than BS air intakes and section 3 exhaust that everyone love to show off that cost just the same as the 3k tune. 3k is not the end of the world especially if you are paying 100k for a car in the first place. I understand concerns about not wanting engine trouble/warranty and that argument is valid but to keep harping about how the tune should be 1k is silly. The market determines if 3k is too steep and if it is then no one will get the tune but i suspect that will not be the case. Besides, no one is forcing anyone to go tune their car for 3k. Stay with the BS/Cheap a** piggy and be happy already
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      01-20-2015, 12:12 PM   #75
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      01-20-2015, 12:28 PM   #76
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Now this is exciting!!!
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      01-20-2015, 02:49 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandertg21 View Post
Ehhhh one of the best? For Japanese imports I'd agree. For BMW, I'll patiently wait from the sideline.
mmmmhm. excuse me but who else has been able to crack this ecu other than this "japanese imports" tuner? everyone is so condescending on this forum, its too much sometimes!
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      01-20-2015, 03:49 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharif507 View Post
mmmmhm. excuse me but who else has been able to crack this ecu other than this "japanese imports" tuner? everyone is so condescending on this forum, its too much sometimes!
They (AMS) have not cracked anything! They are just cooperating (as in buying their solution) with BR Performance in Belgium. BR cracked the encryption and has tuned Fxx since last fall.

More and more tuners, including US, are now getting their hands on this solution that allows software flash of the Fxx gen DME.

What the tuners get from this is the pwd to get access to the software. They can also buy the software (tune) from BR I guess, but the pwd is what enables them to start writing/modifying the software and make their own tune.
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      01-20-2015, 03:51 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcao View Post
Relax peasant

First of all, no one said anything about 5k for tune. We are talking about 3k that everyone is crying about so let's stay on topic. Wheels and tires matter and matter a whole lot due to unsprung wheel weight and performance of tires. I would gladly pay 5k for wheels that weigh 19lb per corner and super sticky performance tires that deliver maximum grip per corner. My super light 5k wheels and tires probably give more performance than BS air intakes and section 3 exhaust that everyone love to show off that cost just the same as the 3k tune. 3k is not the end of the world especially if you are paying 100k for a car in the first place. I understand concerns about not wanting engine trouble/warranty and that argument is valid but to keep harping about how the tune should be 1k is silly. The market determines if 3k is too steep and if it is then no one will get the tune but i suspect that will not be the case. Besides, no one is forcing anyone to go tune their car for 3k. Stay with the BS/Cheap a** piggy and be happy already
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      01-20-2015, 07:24 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth.pilot View Post
seems like a good tune but for $3000 I expect a Dinan like warranty and without that there is no way in hell I would pay $3k.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bronch View Post
I agree. Also, to have to remove your ECU, send it in and be without your car for however long, no warranty coverage (as of yet) then the expense is just probative for me. The claimed gains are fantastic (as advertised) along with CEL and speed limiter delete though. I am sure lots of people will jump on this, but I'll patiently wait for OBD2 flash, some sort of warranty or a much lesser cost. I have a feeling I'll be waiting as long as the next gen M5 release.
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+2
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Originally Posted by PhilT3 View Post
+1
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Originally Posted by MpowerMike View Post
3k is still kinda steep! should be around 1-2k at max
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Originally Posted by Bosozoku View Post
Boom.

No factory-matching warranty?
No sale.

Not 50-state emissions legal?
No sale.
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Originally Posted by mvigod View Post
While I would love this not sure I would risk the cost of replacing an F10 M5 blown engine or transmission. Remember even if the tune is on the car but isn't even responsible for the blown engine you lose your warranty. That's a bit scary.

Maybe once these are out in the wild for some time and have a good track record of no issues with the engine the risk goes down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandertg21 View Post
Ehhhh one of the best? For Japanese imports I'd agree. For BMW, I'll patiently wait from the sideline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandertg21 View Post
Who said AMS did it themselves? Also, who said that the ecu hasn't been cracked by other people? Maybe they're just not ready to release it?

Honestly what other BMW forefront has AMS stamped it's name into? They are nowhere near the level of Turner, Dinan, or even the JB4 for all I care.




Last edited by halfbent; 01-20-2015 at 09:03 PM..
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      01-20-2015, 08:15 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharif507 View Post
mmmmhm. excuse me but who else has been able to crack this ecu other than this "japanese imports" tuner? everyone is so condescending on this forum, its too much sometimes!
Who said AMS did it themselves? Also, who said that the ecu hasn't been cracked by other people? Maybe they're just not ready to release it?

Honestly what other BMW forefront has AMS stamped it's name into? They are nowhere near the level of Turner, Dinan, or even the JB4 for all I care.
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      01-20-2015, 09:18 PM   #82
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hi everyone my car is getting tune right now with no piggy back by a local shop that build high performance BMW. i had bms. they are going to dyno it with the bms and after with the flush. i will let u guys know the result when i get it back. my car has AMS cattless dp ,full meisterschaft exhaust, filters and meth. hopefully in the high 600whp.
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      01-20-2015, 11:55 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcao View Post
Relax peasant

First of all, no one said anything about 5k for tune. We are talking about 3k that everyone is crying about so let's stay on topic. Wheels and tires matter and matter a whole lot due to unsprung wheel weight and performance of tires. I would gladly pay 5k for wheels that weigh 19lb per corner and super sticky performance tires that deliver maximum grip per corner. My super light 5k wheels and tires probably give more performance than BS air intakes and section 3 exhaust that everyone love to show off that cost just the same as the 3k tune. 3k is not the end of the world especially if you are paying 100k for a car in the first place. I understand concerns about not wanting engine trouble/warranty and that argument is valid but to keep harping about how the tune should be 1k is silly. The market determines if 3k is too steep and if it is then no one will get the tune but i suspect that will not be the case. Besides, no one is forcing anyone to go tune their car for 3k. Stay with the BS/Cheap a** piggy and be happy already
Sorry, I value the dollar similar to guys like Warren Buffet. Just because someone gets a $100k car that doesnt mean the tune,mods etc. should be overpriced.
I wouldn't pay 3 grand for a tune, no way Jose.

That's just me...
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      01-21-2015, 12:06 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Does ESS offer a ECU reflash for the Fxx cars for under 1K?

Huge difference in a piggyback which is the same hardware for any car, but with different settings depending which car it's used on. Doing a full ECU flash on the Fxx currently involves paying a supplier (like BR Performance in Belgium) for the solution to break encryption and then R&D in rewriting the software to tune the car.

But, of course over time cost usually comes down, especially if these costs can be divided on a large number of sales. Like on the ESS E-Tronic tuner, which is the exact same hardware for all of the cars they offer it for. Many might even have the same software settings. And anyway, there are only very few parametres that can be adjusted on such a product so the R&D time/cost is just a fraction of doing a ECU flash...

IMO, a piggyback is like the dollar menu at McDonalds when a ECU flash is like having a 8 course meal at a fancy restaurant
I never argued which one is better, a tune or piggyback.

I was mistaken, the M tax doesnt exist. The R&D on the M5 is more expensive therefore the ECU flash is ridiculously expensive.
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      01-21-2015, 01:14 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by V1.47fan View Post
I never argued which one is better, a tune or piggyback.

I was mistaken, the M tax doesnt exist. The R&D on the M5 is more expensive therefore the ECU flash is ridiculously expensive.
You are welcome to your opinion, but I have already had my ECUs remapped and I feel it was worth every $.
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      01-21-2015, 01:54 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V1.47fan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Does ESS offer a ECU reflash for the Fxx cars for under 1K?

Huge difference in a piggyback which is the same hardware for any car, but with different settings depending which car it's used on. Doing a full ECU flash on the Fxx currently involves paying a supplier (like BR Performance in Belgium) for the solution to break encryption and then R&D in rewriting the software to tune the car.

But, of course over time cost usually comes down, especially if these costs can be divided on a large number of sales. Like on the ESS E-Tronic tuner, which is the exact same hardware for all of the cars they offer it for. Many might even have the same software settings. And anyway, there are only very few parametres that can be adjusted on such a product so the R&D time/cost is just a fraction of doing a ECU flash...

IMO, a piggyback is like the dollar menu at McDonalds when a ECU flash is like having a 8 course meal at a fancy restaurant
I never argued which one is better, a tune or piggyback.

I was mistaken, the M tax doesnt exist. The R&D on the M5 is more expensive therefore the ECU flash is ridiculously expensive.
Where did I mention M cars or M tax?

I tried to explain the difference in cost between a piggyback and a flash tune. If you read my post you will see that I do not mention M cars once, nor do I deny M tax or say that 3k is a decent price... I actually refer to Fxx cars and the cost of flashing compared to a generic piggyback that can be used on allmost any turbocharged engine with just minor tweaks for the different applications.

Since it seemed you where a bit confused on the difference in cost between a flash and a piggyback I felt that explaining some basics was needed (esp since you compared the cost of a flash tune with the cost of a ESS piggyback...).

BTW, ESS doesn't seem to have M tax on their piggybacks. Same price for a 320i tune as for a M4 tune. Simply because it's the EXACT same hardware for both cars with possibly just a few minor tweaks on the software settings... My bet is that ESS have a much higher profit margin on each piggyback they sell than what a tuner developing a flash tune has!
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      01-21-2015, 03:35 AM   #87
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Is not really special this numbers

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      01-21-2015, 04:05 AM   #88
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Topspeed limiter removal is nice, but isn't there a gearbox limiter at 326-327kph (ofcourse, already really fast).
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