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      01-21-2015, 05:46 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Where did I mention M cars or M tax?

I tried to explain the difference in cost between a piggyback and a flash tune. If you read my post you will see that I do not mention M cars once, nor do I deny M tax or say that 3k is a decent price... I actually refer to Fxx cars and the cost of flashing compared to a generic piggyback that can be used on allmost any turbocharged engine with just minor tweaks for the different applications.

Since it seemed you where a bit confused on the difference in cost between a flash and a piggyback I felt that explaining some basics was needed (esp since you compared the cost of a flash tune with the cost of a ESS piggyback...).

BTW, ESS doesn't seem to have M tax on their piggybacks. Same price for a 320i tune as for a M4 tune. Simply because it's the EXACT same hardware for both cars with possibly just a few minor tweaks on the software settings... My bet is that ESS have a much higher profit margin on each piggyback they sell than what a tuner developing a flash tune has!

Ok Mr internet expert, I think you're the one a bit confused.
All i said was it's too expensive and you went on to explain to me the R&D involved as if other cars like the GT-R dont need extensive R&D, the difference between a piggyback vs an ECU flash.
Below is the post you replied to, feel free to show where I'm comparing a piggyback to an ECU flash.

Quote:
I think they should charge, you rich guys $5,000 for the tune, the same people here complaining, spend close to 5 grand on wheels that provide next to nothing in gains. Heehee

If you go to McDonald's and you're driving a $100k car, guess what? The price of your happy meal goes up 300%.

Poor AMS, Those tuners like ESS, Mike Benvo etc. selling tunes for less than a $1,000, arent making a profit.
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      01-21-2015, 07:49 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V1.47fan View Post
Ok Mr internet expert, I think you're the one a bit confused.
All i said was it's too expensive and you went on to explain to me the R&D involved as if other cars like the GT-R dont need extensive R&D, the difference between a piggyback vs an ECU flash.
Below is the post you replied to, feel free to show where I'm comparing a piggyback to an ECU flash.
First point, I never once said that 3k was a fair price for the tune.

Second point, do you think the encryption/pwd reader solution that AMS has bought from Europe is free of charge? Tuners have tried to crack the Fxx gen DME since it came in 2010. When someone finally finds a solution, do you really think they just give it away? The cost here is probably way higher than the solution they use on the GT-R. It also involves removing the DME, opening it up to access the chip, crack the pwd and only then they can start the flashing. What is comparable is the actual software rewriting, i.e making the tune itself. One tuner was quoted a price of 400.000 Euro ($460.000,-) to buy the first solution to crack the Fxx....

And why are you suddenly bringing up the GT-R? You did not compare anything to a GT-R tune in your previous posts... No sir, you referred to tuners offering piggyback tunes

Third point,

Quote:
Poor AMS, Those tuners like ESS, Mike Benvo etc. selling tunes for less than a $1,000, arent making a profit.
How is this NOT a reference or comparison between AMS flash tune and the price point from one company (ESS) offering a piggyback tune

You do compare AMS with ESS here, so yes, you seem a bit confused on the difference between flash tuning and piggybacks. You even go on to say that they can't be making a profit at that price range (in a sarcastic tone) which simply put just shows that you don't seem to know the difference between the cost of a piggyback vs a software flash... Hopefully both ESS and AMS make a decent profit, but I'm pretty sure the profit margin is way higher for ESS than it is for AMS here... The hardware for the piggyback is at most around $100-300, depending on supplier.

EDIT after I received a PM from Mike Benvo:
Mike Benvo doesn't want to be dragged into this thread (understandably). He provided me with some interesting info though, but I won't disclose any of it here as he can do that to the public domain if and when he choose to do so himself I apologize for any inconvenience my post might have caused Mike and his company.

Please find a company that offers a flash for the Fxx generation for less than $1000,-

Some more interesting info on the flash process:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PedM5 View Post
Thank you sir



You are very welcome



I have seen that post and until a month or so ago I had not heard of them either but they are definitely able to tune the f series cars.

The way the industry works is there is a flow-down of information, tools, knowledge etc. and it is always released in Europe first as they are closer to the information, but even amongst European tuners there's kind of a hierarchy. The people closest to the release of information are obviously the first to have support either with OEM tools or a backdoor provided by a manufacturer of ECU's, then information is leaked either friend to friend or sold at great expense. The first time I got a quote for the ability to unlock the new tuner protection ecu's I was quoted 400,000 euro

There was a major industry info leak that provide support for F-series cars this past week but so far only diesel models are the only one's widely supported by companies like CMD, Dimsport, etc. The guys who can do the petrol models have something a bit harder to come by. I suspect most tuners now that are claiming to tune the new ECU's are sending them out to Europe to get unlocked and then tuning them which can take 2 weeks or more. We can do it in house same day

Just like the Benz market a lot of tuners drill the ECU's, it's a lot faster but there's also a lot of drawbacks. I think that's an important question to ask your tuner if you are considering tuning. The location of the ECU's on the F10 especially with coolant lines everywhere makes it risky to have a hole in your ECU cover. I personally have never drilled but I understand why other tuners do.

The big issue with having an OBD2 port flash right now is that the flexray system BMW has incorporated is a disruptive technology, it required new hardware and the tuning market is slow to adapt; However, as I said before there will be a solution that won't require ECU removal perhaps sooner rather than later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PedM5 View Post
Hi Guys,

Matt from Jailbreak here. I've been in Europe for the past 2 weeks actually working on getting an obdII solution out to you guys sooner rather than later. There is something in the works but it can take up to a year for it to see the light of day. Removing ECU's is obviously not fun for anyone involved customer, reseller and me. Unfortunately BMW really went above and beyond to make it near impossible to tune their cars so we are happy to have made it this far. I'm sure there will be a lot of tuners selling tunes on these now but I suspect the majority are sending the ECU's out to Europe to be unlocked/tuned for them. We have been doing development in house and have the ability to unlock the ECU's and tune them domestically.

While I was out here Peter from HG Motorsports let me know that people were asking about cold start delete, so I found the bytes to do it we just need to wait to be back in the states and I can confirm it works. This means stage 2 cars will enjoy removed top speed, no check engine light and cold start delete. You runway racers are going to be very happy. We build tunes a la carte so whatever options you want we program. The caveat is that the tuning process is intensive on my side and it's essentially the same amount of work if you want to remove top speed only or get a fully loaded tune.

The dyno I sent to HG was a comparison between a stock M4 done on the Jailbreak dyno in Westminster, CA and the EAS result from that day. Obviously not ideal but there were lots of scheduling conflicts in moving the car around and having available dynos as the car is obviously immobile while the ECU is out.

Things to note about the dyno results:
1) I have spent hundreds of hours in developing a tune for the mevd17 ecu's before ever getting one in my hands. The first file made power, the second file made smoother and more power. When developing a product it's rarely a good idea to throw the kitchen sink at it and see what happens.

2) I found out that top speed removal is not as it used to be in older Bosch control units, even the MED17 on the benz applications works like older Bosch ECU's and they're very similar in map builds. The first file we dyno'd which is pictured in HG's first graph did not have a working top speed delete, the second one did. As you can see in that graph the car hit a higher rev in 5th gear than it used to, and from that result I know that there is multiple top speed maps which I've found. The next revision will get the car to rev all the way out and no more top speed. This is basically how development works, the long delay in between revisions is obviously a pain but necessary.

3) safety is my number one concern. I refuse to program anything that will compromise the safety of a customers car. If I wouldn't put it in my own car, it's not going in yours. I know you guys want 600whp on pump gas but if it will compromise your engine or the components we are not the one's to give that to you.

4) The initial tune was dyno'd on 100octane, the second tune was 91 pump and made more power. The ECU's do have different timing maps for different octane levels, and will run better when premium fuel is used. This all to say the car is turbocharged and the amount of power from ignition timing advance is not as drastic as an increase in boost. The car's will limit throttle, boost, ignition timing and adjust fuel if it detects pinging, higher octane fuel ensures that the car will not negatively effect these inputs. Making power on 91 octane is more art than science at this point, and if you can make it on CA91 you will make it anywhere in the world.

5) The power we made up to this point has been as safe as stock. All I've done is remove or raise limits on power output. For instance, there are a few maps that will limit boost, or timing, or adjust fuel trims based on coolant temp, ambient temp, etc. This is why your car feels faster in the morning vs in the afternoon/in traffic. These maps make you feel like the car is heat soaking prematurely when it's actually the ECU causing kind of a premature heat soak. It's basically aggressively proactive vs being reactive. With careful modification of maps like these you see that BMW's cooling system isn't half bad, the car is a lot more consistent after tuning and for a track enthusiast this is the holy grail. These maps are often referred to as "torque limits," everything in a modern ECU is put in terms of torque output, there is no single map that will control boost or timing or fuel or anything. It's all a series of checks and balances and getting the right combination will unlock power safely.

I've got to get to work but I hope that answers some questions you guys have been having. I'd also like to thank HG Motorsports for providing and arranging test cars, Petrolgirl/Aimee for her patience and EAS for their accommodating our development.

Thanks for all the support guys, it's much appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PedM5 View Post
Hello,

Figured I'd chime in since I'm being mentioned by name in here.

Thanks for searching and finding those posts that was interesting to read how I got started in tuning again. For the record, I was an enthusiast who was jerked around by tuners like most people, couldn't sort the BS from the real deal and after that post you quoted where I was left high and dry by powerchip not being able to get smogged I started learning how to tune myself. I did work for powerchip and tried very hard to improve their sales and support as well as their tuning. Powerchip's owner had a famous melt down but also the ex employees were doing a lot to try and destroy powerchip long before wayne destroyed it himself and it no longer made sense for me to try to save a sinking ship so I left. The last two months of my employment we were only selling E39 M5 tunes because of my personal reputation on the board everyone else had stopped calling.

I have been tuning as a career since then for many companies but after powerchip, I felt it better for me to do primarily wholesale tunes in the form of private/white labeling. I also worked for a well known Mercedes tuner here in SoCal and then BBI Autosport before starting my own company. I know how to tune lots of cars not just BMW, not just Mercedes and not just Porsche, so it's nice to be able to provide solutions for everyone for a change as well as apply knowledge from one marque to the next. Sometimes this industry is very hard to tolerate as there is a lot of shady people wheeling and dealing here and it is very stressful (this is why I have so much gray hair...or at least that's my excuse for it) so I preferred to stay out of the spotlight.

Back on the subject of tuning, the new Mercedes CLA45 AMG that we cracked has the same type of tuner protection as the F series bmw's so after we finished tuning the new AMG we decided to revisit the BMW world. We will probably rejoin the forums in 2015 now that we have something new to provide the community. I was kicked off M5board because I was not a sponsor but there was constant posts about my products, as such other vendors complained and got me banned. I still sell a lot of E39 M5 tunes so it didn't make sense to sponsor the forum for one product and the way the forum mods and owners treated me also made me not want to give them any money. Water under the bridge


I apologize for not setting a consumer website up earlier but for my wholesale accounts I had no need for a website as my dealers contact me directly and I spend most of my time on product development not web development.

As far as tuning the F series cars, there is a lot of healthy skepticism out there, but yes it is possible to flash a custom tune in an F10 M5, F8x M4, etc. The tuning protection for these ECU's is extremely hard to get by and requires a bit more work than just having a bench flashing device. As stated by someone else, opening the ECU's to flash them is par for the course now as Bosch and Siemens have been locking out the ability to read via OBD2 for quite a while now. The AMG's MED17 needs to be opened and there is no reason to be scared as long as your tuner knows what they're doing. I personally don't drill the ECU's but some tuners do either to save time or because they have a problem with breaking the boards when opening them. I will tell you however that the twin ECU's in the F10 M5 are the absolute hardest to open out of any ECU I've ever seen in my life. Luckily I've been opening ECU's since I started and it's nothing new to me. There will eventually be a way to flash them without removing the ECU's but that will take some time, look how long it took to get bench flashing going! It is the normal life cycle of a new generation of ECU's, when the E39 M5 first came out you had to pull the chips off and reflash them manually too and it wasn't until they were almost out of production that there was a very easy and widely available way to flash them OBD2. There was also a lot of false starts for flashing the F series cars but that's because someone shady was selling every tuner including me a method of flashing BMW signed files like the press file and anniversary file which would be loaded via ESYS OBD2. There is also a way to flash in an editable file OBD2 but there is problems with this method as well and of course the people that have access to such files want an arm and a leg for it.

I've attached a screen shot of a hexdump for an M4 we have been playing with. It shows one of the VMAX maps and the area which contains the rev limit or NMAX. You apply a conversion factor of .25 to the values of 32000 to get the rev limit of 8000RPM. There is obviously different rev limits for different conditions including limp modes which is why there are so many here. I apologize for not taking the time to identify the maps individually in winols I just had no intention of changing the rev limit so it would be a waste of my time. I'd also love to show you the fun parts but I don't want to give away 2 years of blood sweat and tears to get to this point. I also attached the M4 hexdump and not the M5 because there has been a stock F10 M5 file floating around for a while now that anyone can get ahold of, the M4 is harder to come by.

Anyways thanks for letting me chime in guys, it's an exciting time for the community again now that there is a way to get rid of those pesky warning lights on the dash and maximize the potential of these machines. The AMG guys have been going largely uncontested for a while now, will be interesting to see a fully done up 63 AMG vs f10 M5 here in U.S. soil

Last edited by Boss330; 01-21-2015 at 08:26 AM..
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      01-21-2015, 08:30 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
First point, I never once said that 3k was a fair price for the tune.

Second point, do you think the encryption/pwd reader solution that AMS has bought from Europe is free of charge? Tuners have tried to crack the Fxx gen DME since it came in 2010. When someone finally finds a solution, do you really think they just give it away? The cost here is probably way higher than the solution they use on the GT-R. It also involves removing the DME, opening it up to access the chip, crack the pwd and only then they can start the flashing. What is comparable is the actual software rewriting, i.e making the tune itself.

And why are you suddenly bringing up the GT-R? You did not compare anything to a GT-R tune in your previous posts... No sir, you referred to tuners offering piggyback tunes

Third point,



How is this NOT a reference or comparison between AMS flash tune and the price point from one company (ESS) offering a piggyback tune

You do compare AMS with ESS here, so yes, you seem a bit confused on the difference between flash tuning and piggybacks. You even go on to say that they can't be making a profit at that price range (in a sarcastic tone) which simply put just shows that you don't seem to know the difference between the cost of a piggyback vs a software flash... Hopefully both ESS and AMS make a decent profit, but I'm pretty sure the profit margin is way higher for ESS than it is for AMS here... The hardware for the piggyback is at most around $100-300, depending on supplier.


Mike Benvo (interesting search results if you Google him BTW...) doesn't even offer a tune for the Fxx gen cars. His most up to date tune is for the X5/X6M at $ 1595,-

Please find a company that offers a flash for the Fxx generation for less than $1000,-
You lack basic reading comprehension. How's saying tuners like ESS, Mike Benvo selling tunes for less than a $1,000 and do just fine financially, is comparing a piggyback to an ECU flash?
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      01-21-2015, 08:52 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandertg21 View Post
Who said AMS did it themselves? Also, who said that the ecu hasn't been cracked by other people? Maybe they're just not ready to release it?

Honestly what other BMW forefront has AMS stamped it's name into? They are nowhere near the level of Turner, Dinan, or even the JB4 for all I care.
bro, get a jb4.. who gives a damn?
aaaaaalso, sure. other people have cracked a computer that hastn been able to be cracked for 4 years but still they keep it to themselves and dont release it while thousands of dollars remain in the costumers pocket. man you are a smart businessman AND so are the companies you so talk about.
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      01-21-2015, 09:46 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by edjebmw View Post
Is not really special this numbers

You must be kidding..
105hp increase for a stage I tune is fantastic!

Can't wait to see what AMS achieves with their tune once it's finalized!
Should be awesome!
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Last edited by MCarsFan; 01-21-2015 at 08:20 PM..
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      01-21-2015, 10:30 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unklejoe View Post
In reality, a flash tune should cost between $300-$1200 no matter the car.

Even for an Audi R8, a "Stage 3" tune costs $1500 from Unitronic (for an 80HP gain).

The problem that people have is that it requires the same amount of effort to tune this car as it does an F30 using the bench flash, yet no one would pay $3000 for a tune on an F30.

I'm not trying to knock AMS or the pricing really, just trying to be the devil's advocate.

Chances are if you can afford an M5 you probably won't care about spending $3000 vs $1000.

The $3000 price tag is a result of the tune being new and being for an expensive car. Prices will come down eventually.

You can make almost 100hp with just a JB4 on an E90 so that's probably where everyone's reference is at.

And when you look at the percentage power increase, it's actually a lot more impressive.

Notice how the Cobb AP costs only a couple hundred more for a 2015 GTR than it does for a 2008 EVO.
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      01-21-2015, 12:23 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V1.47fan View Post
You lack basic reading comprehension. How's saying tuners like ESS, Mike Benvo selling tunes for less than a $1,000 and do just fine financially, is comparing a piggyback to an ECU flash?
First of all, we are discussing the F10 M5 tuning here.

ESS doesn't even sell a "tune", they only offer a piggyback.

So, your comparisons are for one that only offers a piggyback. So when you compare the cost of AMS and ESS, then you ARE comparing a flash tune vs a piggyback.

Unless you could educate me on what you really are comparing between AMS and ESS? I mean, since ESS doesn't even offer a tune, just a piggyback...

And did you see the tuner in my previous post that said he was quoted a price of 400.000 Euro ($460.000) to get access to the Fxx pwd/encryption solution?
It is cheaper now, but AMS still has to pay for the encryption/pwd solution. This still is a major investment and one the tuner needs to add to the cost of the tune.

Your argument would also have been better if you didn't have to resort to personal attacks to make your argument...
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      01-21-2015, 01:04 PM   #96
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I really dont get what everyone's on about. Everyone was crying for a TRUE tune and CEL and speed limit removal and its finally here and now people are crying about the cost. Its simple....if its too expensive for you, DONT BUY IT! Stick to the piggybacks or whatever bolt ons you see value in. I see some of you guys spending 10k on ADV wheels! 3k on gruppe M intakes and upwards of 3k on exhausts and no one says anything about that. I dont see the point in spending 10k on wheels but im not knocking those of you who do. I will be getting the AMS tune because to me its money well spent.
Kudos to the AMS and IND guys for finally getting this for us F10 M5 guys
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      01-21-2015, 02:08 PM   #97
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When AMS start work on Porsche cars. They use EPL tune then stick with Cobb tuning.
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      01-21-2015, 03:07 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by 6spdterror View Post
I really dont get what everyone's on about. Everyone was crying for a TRUE tune and CEL and speed limit removal and its finally here and now people are crying about the cost. Its simple....if its too expensive for you, DONT BUY IT! Stick to the piggybacks or whatever bolt ons you see value in. I see some of you guys spending 10k on ADV wheels! 3k on gruppe M intakes and upwards of 3k on exhausts and no one says anything about that. I dont see the point in spending 10k on wheels but im not knocking those of you who do. I will be getting the AMS tune because to me its money well spent.
Kudos to the AMS and IND guys for finally getting this for us F10 M5 guys
Well said.
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      01-21-2015, 03:38 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
First of all, we are discussing the F10 M5 tuning here. Mike Benvo doesn't even offer a tune for the F10 M5. And his closest tune offering is for the X5/X6M which sells at over $1500...

ESS doesn't even sell a "tune", they only offer a piggyback.

So, your comparisons are for one non existent tune and one that only offers a piggyback. So when you compare the cost of AMS and ESS, then you ARE comparing a flash tune vs a piggyback.

Unless you could educate me on what you really are comparing between AMS and ESS? I mean, since ESS doesn't even offer a tune, just a piggyback...

And did you see the tuner in my previous post that said he was quoted a price of 400.000 Euro ($460.000) to get access to the Fxx pwd/encryption solution?
It is cheaper now, but AMS still has to pay for the encryption/pwd solution. This still is a major investment and one the tuner needs to add to the cost of the tune.

Your argument would also have been better if you didn't have to resort to personal attacks to make your argument...
That was an answer to a guy who said tuners need to make a profit.
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      01-21-2015, 04:23 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6spdterror View Post
I really dont get what everyone's on about. Everyone was crying for a TRUE tune and CEL and speed limit removal and its finally here and now people are crying about the cost. Its simple....if its too expensive for you, DONT BUY IT! Stick to the piggybacks or whatever bolt ons you see value in. I see some of you guys spending 10k on ADV wheels! 3k on gruppe M intakes and upwards of 3k on exhausts and no one says anything about that. I dont see the point in spending 10k on wheels but im not knocking those of you who do. I will be getting the AMS tune because to me its money well spent.
Kudos to the AMS and IND guys for finally getting this for us F10 M5 guys
I spent 3 grand on TC kline coilovers, real hardware, shocks, springs, camber plates...for my E92 M3.
I find it ridiculously expensive for someone to charge $3k to rewrite a memory chip on an ECU.
You think that's reasonable, i dont, that's how forums work.
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      01-21-2015, 04:30 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V1.47fan View Post
I spent 3 grand on TC kline coilovers, real hardware, shocks, springs, camber plates...for my E92 M3.
I find it ridiculously expensive for someone to charge $3k to rewrite a memory chip on an ECU.
You think that's reasonable, i dont, that's how forums work.
Thats what makes the world such a wonderful place! I would never spend 3k on coilovers but like i said in my post...to each their own. Different strokes for different folks. My point was i wouldnt go in a thread where theyre discussing a 3k coilover setup just to complain about the cost. Ill just keep it moving..
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      01-21-2015, 05:15 PM   #102
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Damn! I've never seen so much sissy bitch shit in a long time. Either buy the damn product or shut the phuck up? If you don't like what is posted by pass it. I'm willing to bet that 98% of these sissy bitches that cry from ALL of the tune post don't even drive their cars as intended. Geeze people. I'm gonna have to post up more camel toe pics to calm everyone down.
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      01-21-2015, 05:44 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by boots View Post
Damn! I've never seen so much sissy bitch shit in a long time. Either buy the damn product or shut the phuck up? If you don't like what is posted by pass it. I'm willing to bet that 98% of these sissy bitches that cry from ALL of the tune post don't even drive their cars as intended. Geeze people. I'm gonna have to post up more camel toe pics to calm everyone down.
LMFAO!!!!! Agreed
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      01-21-2015, 06:07 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by boots View Post
Damn! I've never seen so much sissy bitch shit in a long time. Either buy the damn product or shut the phuck up? If you don't like what is posted by pass it. I'm willing to bet that 98% of these sissy bitches that cry from ALL of the tune post don't even drive their cars as intended. Geeze people. I'm gonna have to post up more camel toe pics to calm everyone down.
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      01-21-2015, 06:57 PM   #105
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Boots just made my day. We all think it and he said it. Bravo!!!
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      01-21-2015, 08:16 PM   #106
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This thread is awesome! I can't stop laughing and tt's uncomfortable now tho...
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      01-21-2015, 09:40 PM   #107
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I am happy to see progress has been made to give us a proper tune. As excited as I am, I'm still having a hard time quantifying the $3000 price. This may appeal to the hardcore enthusiast and to the folks that has money to burn. For many, like myself, this may be a hard pill to swallow. As an example, Dinan was attractive to many, because of their warranty. As I understand this, R&D was done by BR-P and tuners now are taking advantage of this break through. I don't know the cost to acquire the necessary skill set, tools, and pwd encryption to bring this state side, but I would think $1000 to $1500 would have been a fair price.
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      01-21-2015, 10:15 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by V1.47fan
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Originally Posted by 6spdterror View Post
I really dont get what everyone's on about. Everyone was crying for a TRUE tune and CEL and speed limit removal and its finally here and now people are crying about the cost. Its simple....if its too expensive for you, DONT BUY IT! Stick to the piggybacks or whatever bolt ons you see value in. I see some of you guys spending 10k on ADV wheels! 3k on gruppe M intakes and upwards of 3k on exhausts and no one says anything about that. I dont see the point in spending 10k on wheels but im not knocking those of you who do. I will be getting the AMS tune because to me its money well spent.
Kudos to the AMS and IND guys for finally getting this for us F10 M5 guys
I spent 3 grand on TC kline coilovers, real hardware, shocks, springs, camber plates...for my E92 M3.
I find it ridiculously expensive for someone to charge $3k to rewrite a memory chip on an ECU.
You think that's reasonable, i dont, that's how forums work.
You paid 3k for this:

This basically is a Koni coilover kit with TC Kline camber plates. The Koni coilovers, of the type used in this kit, is available for 1300-1600 from other shops. Meaning that shops probably buy them for under 1k from Koni... Add 2 camber plates that has a material cost of perhaps as much as $100

I think it's important to understand the costs involved in a product before categorically claim it's too expensive! How much has AMS paid for the pwd solution for instance? Early quotes was $460.000,- I'm pretty sure it's not that much now, but it might still be a considerable amount... Then add the same R&D cost that every new model that they make a tune for incurs. And on top of that, you need to make a profit to pay the wages and rent.

At 3k they might make a huge profit, or they might have the same profit margin as they do on other tunes they offer. Neither of us know, because we do not know the cost involved in this product. You can't just assume the cost is $500 and that the rest is profit.
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      01-22-2015, 06:46 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boots View Post
Damn! I've never seen so much sissy bitch shit in a long time. Either buy the damn product or shut the phuck up? If you don't like what is posted by pass it. I'm willing to bet that 98% of these sissy bitches that cry from ALL of the tune post don't even drive their cars as intended. Geeze people. I'm gonna have to post up more camel toe pics to calm everyone down.
Lol..... If u can afford it just pay n enjoy the power! For those that can't afford it just drive without it so what's the big deal now? By saying how much it worth wouldn't really bring the price down or will it? For me if the tuner can do it pls come n collect the money! I'm ready anytime! Lol....

With my bigger turbo, 125hp of wet shot & methanol I'm just ready to ROCK & ROLL. LOL......
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Last edited by Andym3100k; 01-22-2015 at 07:03 AM..
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      01-22-2015, 08:10 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boots View Post
Damn! I've never seen so much sissy bitch shit in a long time. Either buy the damn product or shut the phuck up? If you don't like what is posted by pass it. I'm willing to bet that 98% of these sissy bitches that cry from ALL of the tune post don't even drive their cars as intended. Geeze people. I'm gonna have to post up more camel toe pics to calm everyone down.
+100000000000000
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