BMS Tune/Track Results/Discussion

[JasonTPG]

Hello there, I am new to the forum and the M5 Platform, however not new to cars or racing. I wanted to gauge peoples performance and satisfaction with the upgrade routes they have taken.

I recently purchased a 2013 M5, after a few days of research it seemed people were most happy with the bang for the buck they received from the BMS Tune. I decided to go that route and though I am very pleased with the performance gain from the BMS, I don't exactly like the route it takes. I was able to muster a 12.0 124.95 with just the BMS and no launch control, but I feel there needs to be more done.

I am not new to tuning, although I am new to the BMW side of it. The way I am interpreting the BMS "Tune" is that it is simply intercepting the MAP sensor signal, and telling the DME that it is not running enough boost, therefore it runs more, not an actual "tune". This is nothing new to the car scene it's been done with the MAF signal in other cars for years to add more fuel. However it scares me a bit on my $80,000 dollar toy.

I have the option of going with the Dinan stage 1 and I would like to test the two back to back. I am just curious if the Dinan has the option of actually adjusting air to fuel mixtures, timing tables, etc, or if it is just another more expensive version of the BMS. There isn't alot of information regarding what the Dinan does, and from most of what I have read people have been pretty disappointed in there $3000 dollar investment. I am sure this has been discussed before, but I was just looking to get other peoples opinions on rolling the dice with their expensive toys.

[Fantasm]

NO ONE has cracked the ECU encryption.
EVERYONES tunes will be essentially the same. Dinan will be doing the same shit BMS is.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Fantasm

NO ONE has cracked the ECU encryption.
EVERYONES tunes will be essentially the same. Dinan will be doing the same shit BMS is.

M-bitious's car is currently at Leib Engineering in Germany. They have claimed that they HAVE cracked the Fxx gen DME. At the time it's a fairly time consuming process however, where the DME needs to be at their shop for 1-2 weeks before being opened/cracked and tuning can take place.

They have tuned both the M235i and F8x M3/M4 with this process allready. We'll have to wait a couple more weeks before we hear how that worked out for M-bitious.

They can do ANY sort of custom mapping, speed limiter removal, CEL removal and mapping for upgraded turbos etc.

[Andym3100k]

Originally Posted by Boss330

M-bitious's car is currently at Leib Engineering in Germany. They have claimed that they HAVE cracked the Fxx gen DME. At the time it's a fairly time consuming process however, where the DME needs to be at their shop for 1-2 weeks before being opened/cracked and tuning can take place.

They have tuned both the M235i and F8x M3/M4 with this process allready. We'll have to wait a couple more weeks before we hear how that worked out for M-bitious.

They can do ANY sort of custom mapping, speed limiter removal, CEL removal and mapping for upgraded turbos etc.

Sounds good, I'm waiting for the results n next will be me & I believe many other more.....

[AstonMartian777]

Yeah this tune situation is already getting on my nerves, amgs and rs7 are already over 700whp

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by AstonMartian777

Yeah this tune situation is already getting on my nerves, amgs and rs7 are already over 700whp

Yes this is exactly true. I've seen Audi RS7's run a 10.6 in the 1/4 with nothing but a tune.

However, who knows the reliability of doing such aggressive tunes on these BMW engines. Nobody really. Everything from heat management, to how much torque the DCT can take, to the limits on the fuel pump all have to be taken into consideration if someone were to create a real tune that pushes 1,000hp on a stock BMW S63tu engine.

The AMG and Audi guys seem to be lucky so far as I don't think I've heard anything blowing up anything yet.

Just check this out. I'd pay $3k for this if it was legit results, which it looks like it definitely is.
http://tuning.alphaperformance.com/p...matic-biturbo/

[AstonMartian777]

N54 takes over 600whp easily with stock automatics, I'm sure we'll be fine at 800whp, I need at least 800whp and speed limiter removed, this is BS !!!

[shahano]

Originally Posted by JasonTPG

Hello there, I am new to the forum and the M5 Platform, however not new to cars or racing. I wanted to gauge peoples performance and satisfaction with the upgrade routes they have taken.

I recently purchased a 2013 M5, after a few days of research it seemed people were most happy with the bang for the buck they received from the BMS Tune. I decided to go that route and though I am very pleased with the performance gain from the BMS, I don't exactly like the route it takes. I was able to muster a 12.0 124.95 with just the BMS and no launch control, but I feel there needs to be more done.

I am not new to tuning, although I am new to the BMW side of it. The way I am interpreting the BMS "Tune" is that it is simply intercepting the MAP sensor signal, and telling the DME that it is not running enough boost, therefore it runs more, not an actual "tune". This is nothing new to the car scene it's been done with the MAF signal in other cars for years to add more fuel. However it scares me a bit on my $80,000 dollar toy.

I have the option of going with the Dinan stage 1 and I would like to test the two back to back. I am just curious if the Dinan has the option of actually adjusting air to fuel mixtures, timing tables, etc, or if it is just another more expensive version of the BMS. There isn't alot of information regarding what the Dinan does, and from most of what I have read people have been pretty disappointed in there $3000 dollar investment. I am sure this has been discussed before, but I was just looking to get other peoples opinions on rolling the dice with their expensive toys.

Can you please explain to me the problem of a piggy back. I don't really understand how it would affect our toy, but then again I dont know what exactly is the difference between a normal ECU and how it would be bad compared to a normal tune. any explanation would be helpful

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by shahano

Can you please explain to me the problem of a piggy back. I don't really understand how it would affect our toy, but then again I dont know what exactly is the difference between a normal ECU and how it would be bad compared to a normal tune. any explanation would be helpful

Piggyback tunes are not ideal. The BMS piggyback just intercepts the data from the boost sensors and tells the DME that you are making less boost than anticipated. The DME then tries to increase boost (through the wastegates?) to make up for the shortfall.

The problem is fueling. The DME is only going to increase fueling up to a set maximum within the stock software of the DME. It could cause a lean condition as you need more fuel to balance out the increased flow of the engine. You are left hoping that the safeguards in the system will prevent predetonation from a lean condition. That is why BMS suggests race fuel for increasing the boost. The higher octane fuel gives you some additional protection in case there is a lean condition (i.e. added resistance to knock/predetonation).

A real tune would allow the tuner to increase fueling beyond the stock parameters and avoid lean conditions (provided they don't go too crazy with the boost).

[Tylerstar]

Originally Posted by AstonMartian777

N54 takes over 600whp easily with stock automatics, I'm sure we'll be fine at 800whp, I need at least 800whp and speed limiter removed, this is BS !!!

You'll definitely need a built engine and bigger turbos for 800whp.

[Andym3100k]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Yes this is exactly true. I've seen Audi RS7's run a 10.6 in the 1/4 with nothing but a tune.

However, who knows the reliability of doing such aggressive tunes on these BMW engines. Nobody really. Everything from heat management, to how much torque the DCT can take, to the limits on the fuel pump all have to be taken into consideration if someone were to create a real tune that pushes 1,000hp on a stock BMW S63tu engine.

The AMG and Audi guys seem to be lucky so far as I don't think I've heard anything blowing up anything yet.

Just check this out. I'd pay $3k for this if it was legit results, which it looks like it definitely is.
http://tuning.alphaperformance.com/p...matic-biturbo/

Wow just simply spend $3k to destroy our car, why our car is so difficult to increase power but benz is so easy. This is totally can't acceptable!!!

[Andym3100k]

Originally Posted by Tylerstar

You'll definitely need a built engine and bigger turbos for 800whp.

Yes I agreed but just how to do it Now??? No after market no parts no tuning no tuner....... Nothing........ Very very disappointed now.......

[ImpetuousRacer]

You guys see that E63 beating up on everyone with the Weistec Tune. Think it was running 10's. Nice to have AWD, and tune available. Disappointing for the M.

[JasonTPG]

I get frustrated as I am sure most of you do. I tune cars for a living, however nothing with the BMW platform. Speaking from experience, the piggy back is 100% the wrong way to go, however it gets people by. The advantages of a real "tune" are countless. The biggest issues are monitoring detonation, BMW has always had very good knock control dating back to my old E36 M's.
However throwing extra 3-4psi of boost at an engine with no knock monitoring no timing adjustments, or added fuel is definitely a danger.

This was/Is incredibly frustrating for me, owning a shop, owning a dyno, and having to send my turbo e36 elsewhere to be tuned. The BMW world has been behind in the aftermarket world for years. Maybe due to a lack of interest? Maybe the greed of the people who have cracked the ecu's not wanting to make it marketable to the rest of us? Either way I would really like to see a tuning option out there for these cars. I feel there is tons of unlocked potential hidden within from just a quality tune.

[Andym3100k]

Originally Posted by JasonTPG

I get frustrated as I am sure most of you do. I tune cars for a living, however nothing with the BMW platform. Speaking from experience, the piggy back is 100% the wrong way to go, however it gets people by. The advantages of a real "tune" are countless. The biggest issues are monitoring detonation, BMW has always had very good knock control dating back to my old E36 M's.
However throwing extra 3-4psi of boost at an engine with no knock monitoring no timing adjustments, or added fuel is definitely a danger.

This was/Is incredibly frustrating for me, owning a shop, owning a dyno, and having to send my turbo e36 elsewhere to be tuned. The BMW world has been behind in the aftermarket world for years. Maybe due to a lack of interest? Maybe the greed of the people who have cracked the ecu's not wanting to make it marketable to the rest of us? Either way I would really like to see a tuning option out there for these cars. I feel there is tons of unlocked potential hidden within from just a quality tune.

Starting to ask myself did I chose the wrong car? Maybe not cos I still like the look for a M, someone pls break the DME n give us some justice!

[shahano]

Originally Posted by Tom C

Piggyback tunes are not ideal. The BMS piggyback just intercepts the data from the boost sensors and tells the DME that you are making less boost than anticipated. The DME then tries to increase boost (through the wastegates?) to make up for the shortfall.

The problem is fueling. The DME is only going to increase fueling up to a set maximum within the stock software of the DME. It could cause a lean condition as you need more fuel to balance out the increased flow of the engine. You are left hoping that the safeguards in the system will prevent predetonation from a lean condition. That is why BMS suggests race fuel for increasing the boost. The higher octane fuel gives you some additional protection in case there is a lean condition (i.e. added resistance to knock/predetonation).

A real tune would allow the tuner to increase fueling beyond the stock parameters and avoid lean conditions (provided they don't go too crazy with the boost).

So is the stage 1 BMS tune safe or also quite risky? I am not in the market to buy a new engine so I want to make sure the BMS is the right way to go. I will not increase boost past what they show in the installation guide, but is that even too much or is it mean to be super safe?
I am planning to keep the car until 50,000 miles (at 28k now) and not planning on blowing the engine before that.

[boots]

Yes it is

[Andym3100k]

Originally Posted by shahano

So is the stage 1 BMS tune safe or also quite risky? I am not in the market to buy a new engine so I want to make sure the BMS is the right way to go. I will not increase boost past what they show in the installation guide, but is that even too much or is it mean to be super safe?
I am planning to keep the car until 50,000 miles (at 28k now) and not planning on blowing the engine before that.

Blow yr engine??? NO WAY!!! I DONT THINK SO.

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by shahano

So is the stage 1 BMS tune safe or also quite risky? I am not in the market to buy a new engine so I want to make sure the BMS is the right way to go. I will not increase boost past what they show in the installation guide, but is that even too much or is it mean to be super safe?
I am planning to keep the car until 50,000 miles (at 28k now) and not planning on blowing the engine before that.

It is safe as long as you don't go crazy with increasing the boost. If you are going to go beyond the standard setting, you should make sure you are using higher octane fuel.

[shahano]

Originally Posted by Tom C

It is safe as long as you don't go crazy with increasing the boost. If you are going to go beyond the standard setting, you should make sure you are using higher octane fuel.

I am planning to go as they wrote on the install guide. I believe 3..

That is extra safe i hope and will not hurt longevity of the engine?

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by shahano

I am planning to go as they wrote on the install guide. I believe 3..

That is extra safe i hope and will not hurt longevity of the engine?

Just go with the base setting of 3 on 91 octane and 3.5 max on 93 octane and up and you will be fine. Mine did great tuned on a 95 degree track day.

[Boss330]

The safe route would be to go with a Dinan or AC Schnitzer tune since those come with a warranty for added piece of mind. These tunes won't make you the fastest tuned M5 though... Perhaps better driveability and fun in everyday driving, but most likely not the fastest everywhere.

Those are piggybacks, just like the BMS etc.

Leib Engineering in Germany have cracked the DME and claim they can do any custom mapping required/requested. This include mapping for bigger turbos etc.

This requires either shipping your DME to them, or buying new ones they can work with. I also assume custom mapping is quite hard (impossible) to do with the car in the US and Leib in Germany...

On the other hand, seems like a lot of owners are using the BMS without any issues. So experience shows that this is also a quite safe tune, but if it goes awry, you're probably on your own...