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      10-25-2014, 01:25 PM   #1
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Dinan Stage 1 vs BMS Vbox comparison 1/4 mile /60-130

I had the chance to test the Dinan stage 1 on my 2014 M6 CP with SS DP's and Gruppe M intake, in 60-130, 1/4 and 1/2 mile runs. I used the exact same 0 slope testing road as my BMS +3.5 tests. The DA was 580 for the Dinan test and 100 for the BMS runs , so the BMS got slightly better air, both cars had a full tank of 93 octane . I think the acceleration graphs clearly shows the difference between a proper tune and not , especially on the shifts. Traction was more of an issue with the Dinan stage 1 due to it making more power on the top of 1st gear and 2nd gear as well as an instant 1/2 shift, you can see on my 1/4 run were i had to lift at the 1/2 with the Dinan for a moment. It def has more in it, on the 60-130 as well.The first 3 are the Dinan runs.
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      10-25-2014, 08:36 PM   #2
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      10-25-2014, 09:12 PM   #3
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Yep the stage 2 is going to whoop its ass . The acceleration curves tell the story , you can literally see when the BMS is in knock detection .
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      10-26-2014, 11:36 AM   #4
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So which one was faster? BMS right?

and I believe the stage 2 is just intake and exhaust.

How you figure car is knocking you have any data logs with timing, ect?
Just wondering would love to see it.

Thanks man!
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      10-26-2014, 11:47 AM   #5
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Can you confirm which graph is what, the later graphs show a faster car, which I assume are BMS given you said Dinan graphs were first..
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      10-26-2014, 11:48 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast
So which one was faster? BMS right?

and I believe the stage 2 is just intake and exhaust.

How you figure car is knocking you have any data logs with timing, ect?
Just wondering would love to see it.

Thanks man!
The DInan was quicker hands down , and had equal 60-130 times except for 1 run despite having significantly worse air . Traction is more of an issue with the Dinan top of second so it's times will get better once I get used to shift points etc . The Dinan is almost .2 seconds faster 50-70 mph because of a faster 2-3 shift and better top of 2nd power . Just look at the acc curves , you can see major issues with the BMS acc after each shift . Given how it relies on long term fuel trim adjustments and the ECU to adjust timing via knock detection it makes sense why the BMS curve looks like it does . Also the 129 BMS trap the GPS wasn't valid due to signal loss so essentially trap speed and 60-130 is the same . So end result is equal trap speed and 60-130 with quicker ET going to the Dinan setup because of better drivetrain function .
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      10-26-2014, 12:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by padrino
Can you confirm which graph is what, the later graphs show a faster car, which I assume are BMS given you said Dinan graphs were first..
Most of the BMS 60-130 run were in the 7.5 sec range slightly slower vs Dinan with the exception of 1 7.36 run . Within .2 seconds can be shift points etc so they are the essentially the same . The DA was almost 600 during the Dinan test and was 140 for the BMS testing so that comes in to play as well . The Dinan trap was 128.9 and the BMS was 129.7 with the Dinan having a quicker ET 11.5 vs 11.7 . The GPS signal wasn't consistent on the BMS 1/4 so it showed up as invalid . My fastest verified terminal velocity with BMS previously was 130.x with a 128.x trap . So power wise they are essentially the same with the Dinan being quicker due to better drivetrain integration .
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      10-26-2014, 12:32 PM   #8
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I'd like to see a log with BMS new firmware that makes a smoother torque curve to compare. So at the end of the day they are the same with while you spen less on BMS is what I'm getting out of this.
Also you have options with BMS depending on fuel and boost . You'll have those who will be more conservative and those like me that like as much as they can get out of their cars.

Great post man thanks for doing these Vbox runs. Maybe you can do some Dyno numbers to compare the two, that would be great.

Thanks G
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      10-26-2014, 12:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast
I'd like to see a log with BMS new firmware that makes a smoother torque curve to compare. So at the end of the day they are the same with while you spen less on BMS is what I'm getting out of this.
Also you have options with BMS depending on fuel and boost . You'll have those who will be more conservative and those like me that like as much as they can get out of their cars.

Great post man thanks for doing these Vbox runs. Maybe you can do some Dyno numbers to compare the two, that would be great.

Thanks G
G
I'll retest the Dinan when I get the stage 2 software as well ( should be in the next couple of weeks ) as even small bumps in power have big effects on 60-130. Bottom line is the increased cost is well worth it for me as the drive ability and DCT function as well as safety is 10-1 in favor of Dinan vs the BMS at higher settings ( 3.5 in my case on pump gas) . Obviously running race gas and or meth covers up the BMS's limitations so in the end it's what you want individually . The Dinan stage 1 though is hands down faster than the BMS set to 3 however while maintaining completely stock driveability so well done Dinan . ( my fastest trap was 127 , and 60-130 was 7.8 with the BMS set to 3.0) . If you want the maximum
Performance out of the TU on pump gas without meth or race gas then Dinan is the best option , with the added benefit of stock driveabilty and DCT function . If your looking for max numbers like you then the BMS with meth is the way to go .
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      10-26-2014, 01:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast
So which one was faster? BMS right?

and I believe the stage 2 is just intake and exhaust.

How you figure car is knocking you have any data logs with timing, ect?
Just wondering would love to see it.

Thanks man!
The DInan was quicker hands down , and had equal 60-130 times except for 1 run despite having significantly worse air . Traction is more of an issue with the Dinan top of second so it's times will get better once I get used to shift points etc . The Dinan is almost .2 seconds faster 50-70 mph because of a faster 2-3 shift and better top of 2nd power . Just look at the acc curves , you can see major issues with the BMS acc after each shift . Given how it relies on long term fuel trim adjustments and the ECU to adjust timing via knock detection it makes sense why the BMS curve looks like it does . Also the 129 BMS trap the GPS wasn't valid due to signal loss so essentially trap speed and 60-130 is the same . So end result is equal trap speed and 60-130 with quicker ET going to the Dinan setup because of better drivetrain function .
I was actually just about ready to start a new thread. It really seems that the biggest issue with the BMS, is that it does not actually integrate in any significant way with the sensors as it does with the JB4 in other models? Ultimately, that would be a better comparison. It really seems as though the Dinan actually integrates fully with the sensors, giving a more "JB4" like tune than BMS Tmap only...

The M5 just seems to be a bit off the radar for BMS right now?

Correct me if I am wrong? I really want a good tune, but the Dinan cost is a bit of an irritation, compared to BMS...
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      10-26-2014, 01:53 PM   #11
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So far I have had seven runs vs BMS (3.0) on two cars. All seven times the Dinan Stage 2 won. One of the cars was stock w/ BMS and the other had catless DP's.
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      10-26-2014, 01:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandido View Post
I was actually just about ready to start a new thread. It really seems that the biggest issue with the BMS, is that it does not actually integrate in any significant way with the sensors as it does with the JB4 in other models? Ultimately, that would be a better comparison. It really seems as though the Dinan actually integrates fully with the sensors, giving a more "JB4" like tune than BMS Tmap only...

The M5 just seems to be a bit off the radar for BMS right now?

Correct me if I am wrong? I really want a good tune, but the Dinan cost is a bit of an irritation, compared to BMS...
Not sure you can't really go by just what a 60-130 mph without true timing, fuel, and AF logs to really know what's going on. I did a firmware upgrade and now the cars torque is alot smoother like Dinans which I noticed a difference before and after.
I'm going to Dyno with both options on the BMS because you can turn it off and on with the new firmware. I like more torque down low then the smoother torque. But that's me.

I plan next week to Dyno and see what the graph looks like and how power is effected by adjusting torque delivery.

Will keep you in the loop.
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      10-26-2014, 03:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandido View Post
I was actually just about ready to start a new thread. It really seems that the biggest issue with the BMS, is that it does not actually integrate in any significant way with the sensors as it does with the JB4 in other models? Ultimately, that would be a better comparison. It really seems as though the Dinan actually integrates fully with the sensors, giving a more "JB4" like tune than BMS Tmap only...

The M5 just seems to be a bit off the radar for BMS right now?

Correct me if I am wrong? I really want a good tune, but the Dinan cost is a bit of an irritation, compared to BMS...
Not sure you can't really go by just what a 60-130 mph without true timing, fuel, and AF logs to really know what's going on. I did a firmware upgrade and now the cars torque is alot smoother like Dinans which I noticed a difference before and after.
I'm going to Dyno with both options on the BMS because you can turn it off and on with the new firmware. I like more torque down low then the smoother torque. But that's me.

I plan next week to Dyno and see what the graph looks like and how power is effected by adjusting torque delivery.

Will keep you in the loop.
It's not just the Tq curve it's the method and materials being used . You can't make the car behave like stock power delivery wise without full control of fueling and timing . The acc curve being severely retarded after each shift proves there is something very wrong . There is a sig delay in power coming back that I could feel on both the strip and my track day . That combined with high exhaust gas temp limp modes ( a sign of running lean ) is why I ended up switching . You can't say momentary running lean and relying on knock detection isn't happening after each shift either by looking at steady state AFR's.
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      10-26-2014, 03:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandido
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast
So which one was faster? BMS right?

and I believe the stage 2 is just intake and exhaust.

How you figure car is knocking you have any data logs with timing, ect?
Just wondering would love to see it.

Thanks man!
The DInan was quicker hands down , and had equal 60-130 times except for 1 run despite having significantly worse air . Traction is more of an issue with the Dinan top of second so it's times will get better once I get used to shift points etc . The Dinan is almost .2 seconds faster 50-70 mph because of a faster 2-3 shift and better top of 2nd power . Just look at the acc curves , you can see major issues with the BMS acc after each shift . Given how it relies on long term fuel trim adjustments and the ECU to adjust timing via knock detection it makes sense why the BMS curve looks like it does . Also the 129 BMS trap the GPS wasn't valid due to signal loss so essentially trap speed and 60-130 is the same . So end result is equal trap speed and 60-130 with quicker ET going to the Dinan setup because of better drivetrain function .
I was actually just about ready to start a new thread. It really seems that the biggest issue with the BMS, is that it does not actually integrate in any significant way with the sensors as it does with the JB4 in other models? Ultimately, that would be a better comparison. It really seems as though the Dinan actually integrates fully with the sensors, giving a more "JB4" like tune than BMS Tmap only...

The M5 just seems to be a bit off the radar for BMS right now?

Correct me if I am wrong? I really want a good tune, but the Dinan cost is a bit of an irritation, compared to BMS...
The Dinan hooks into each cylinder banks ECU directly . Huge difference in the capabilities that gives you .
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      10-26-2014, 03:57 PM   #15
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When you went yo the track and raised boost how long before you raising boost and runing the car. I can say raising boost even with higher octane it needs a couple days of adaptation.
What you say may be true for you but for me running two cars with different setups I don't get the feeling you're talking about or any limp modes.
I know some guys tried raising their boost during a race and got missfire codes. I told them the car has to adapt to the extra air. It's not a tune you load up and you're ready to go.
I log air fuels ect and see how the car responds to every mod and can tell you from experience you can't just up the boost more than 3.5 and think everything is gonna happen from a turn of the ignition.
Maybe when you get your stage 2 we can get up at the track for some comparison runs and see how we do.

Just a thought

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      10-26-2014, 05:36 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Yep the stage 2 is going to whoop its ass . The acceleration curves tell the story , you can literally see when the BMS is in knock detection .
Sweet data! It's been great to be able to see the performance of your car from stock, to downpipes, to the BMS tune, and now to the Dinan tune.

Looking at this data set the BMS Stage1 was quicker than the Dinan Stage1 to the tune of 7.3s 60-130 for BMS to 7.5s 60-130mph for Dinan. If I've read your previous results properly in the 1/4 mile you went from 129mph stock, to 131mph with the BMS tune, to 130mph with the Dinan tune?

On the BMS end the 3.5psi is a bit too aggressive for the CP cars on 93 octane in my opinion. I think 2.0psi would be more appropriate and that may slow you down to the Dinan times which I'm sure are running less boost. The latest Stage1 firmware would also smooth out boost in 1st and 2nd making launching a bit easier. Alternatively adding in race gas or octane booster would allow you really use that 3.5psi setting with additional power.

I do have to say I'm a bit baffled by your analysis especially with engine knock. There isn't going to be any engine knock in 1st or 2nd gear under low load conditions struggling for traction and momentum. That is something you'll experience towards the end of long half mile pulls where load is high and everything is hot. In a previous performance post you mentioned the BMS Stage1 was giving traction issues in 1st and 2nd which perfectly reflects what your acceleration logs here are showing. I think you should be careful when making claims like the Stage1 is knocking and your Dinan is not without actually logging the runs for each tune and looking at the knock data. That would be some great data to see.

Mike
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      10-26-2014, 05:52 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast View Post
When you went yo the track and raised boost how long before you raising boost and runing the car. I can say raising boost even with higher octane it needs a couple days of adaptation.
What you say may be true for you but for me running two cars with different setups I don't get the feeling you're talking about or any limp modes.
I know some guys tried raising their boost during a race and got missfire codes. I told them the car has to adapt to the extra air. It's not a tune you load up and you're ready to go.
I log air fuels ect and see how the car responds to every mod and can tell you from experience you can't just up the boost more than 3.5 and think everything is gonna happen from a turn of the ignition.
Maybe when you get your stage 2 we can get up at the track for some comparison runs and see how we do.

Just a thought
It had been at 3.5 for months man, and when i data logged the steady state AFR's looked ok. As you know the track is wayyy different than driving on the street or even doing pulls at the strip.
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      10-26-2014, 06:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Sweet data! It's been great to be able to see the performance of your car from stock, to downpipes, to the BMS tune, and now to the Dinan tune.

Looking at this data set the BMS Stage1 was quicker than the Dinan Stage1 to the tune of 7.3s 60-130 for BMS to 7.5s 60-130mph for Dinan. If I've read your previous results properly in the 1/4 mile you went from 129mph stock, to 131mph with the BMS tune, to 130mph with the Dinan tune?

On the BMS end the 3.5psi is a bit too aggressive for the CP cars on 93 octane in my opinion. I think 2.0psi would be more appropriate and that may slow you down to the Dinan times which I'm sure are running less boost. The latest Stage1 firmware would also smooth out boost in 1st and 2nd making launching a bit easier. Alternatively adding in race gas or octane booster would allow you really use that 3.5psi setting with additional power.



I do have to say I'm a bit baffled by your analysis especially with engine knock. There isn't going to be any engine knock in 1st or 2nd gear under low load conditions struggling for traction and momentum. That is something you'll experience towards the end of long half mile pulls where load is high and everything is hot. In a previous performance post you mentioned the BMS Stage1 was giving traction issues in 1st and 2nd which perfectly reflects what your acceleration logs here are showing. I think you should be careful when making claims like the Stage1 is knocking and your Dinan is not without actually logging the runs for each tune and looking at the knock data. That would be some great data to see.

Mike
The BMS quarter mile i posted wasn't valid due to GPS drop out unfortunately as you can see . The fastest verified BMS trap I have was equal to the Dinan both 128.x mph with 130-131 terminal velocity. The Dinan and BMS are essentially equal , the BMS was faster on one 60-130 run on a better day air wise but as you can see was the same on another at 7.5. Within .2 seconds can be shift point traction in 2nd etc. etc. . The Dinan has more in it as I was having traction issues with it at the top of second gear (It def makes more power up top than the BMS, while the BMS made more around 3k). On pump gas the two are equal with the Dinan having much better transmission function and responsiveness. The Dinan 50-70 mph was almost .2 seconds faster due to a faster 2-3 shift leading to a faster ET. Both also had the same 157.x , 1/2 mile traps, so power wise I think they are essentially the same . My fastest terminal speed was 127 (125.x trap )stock but that was on a -2000 DA day while both these were on a positive DA +100 BMS/ +580 dinan) .
Your'e right I can't be sure what is causing the long shifts and power delay on the runs since i wasn't logging data this time ,but obviously the car wasn't liking something with every shift at +3.5. Also at the drag strip it kept having a weird hesitation in 1st when i attempted to modulate the throttle then a huge delay on the 1-2 shift. I'm sure the new firmware with the slower tq ramp up will help alleviate this some .
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      10-26-2014, 07:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandido View Post
I was actually just about ready to start a new thread. It really seems that the biggest issue with the BMS, is that it does not actually integrate in any significant way with the sensors as it does with the JB4 in other models? Ultimately, that would be a better comparison. It really seems as though the Dinan actually integrates fully with the sensors, giving a more "JB4" like tune than BMS Tmap only...

The M5 just seems to be a bit off the radar for BMS right now?

Correct me if I am wrong? I really want a good tune, but the Dinan cost is a bit of an irritation, compared to BMS...
The BMS Stage1 is not meant to be a full tune like say the BMS JB4 system. It's a simple install and enjoy type product intended to add 30-40hp. There are some adjustments that allow people to push it further especially with race gas. And some new adjustments that allow power to be scaled based on RPM and pedal input. But it was never indented to compete with full tunes. If you push it far enough it will make the same or more power but then there might be trade offs in terms of smoothness and consistency. Those trade offs would not be there with say a JB4 system.

I'm not sure why BMS has decided not to make a JB4 for the s63tu platform but if that ever changes I'll be sure to let everyone know.

In terms of Dinan it's not clear to me whether it's a full tune or just a intercepting a few analog signals via the ECU connection rather than the sensors directly. A full tune piggyback would be able to spit out complex logs like this for analysis. This log specific log was from a JB4 tuned F80 M3 running at Shift Sector this weekend.

Mike
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      10-27-2014, 07:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
I had the chance to test the Dinan stage 1 on my 2014 M6 CP with SS DP's and Gruppe M intake, in 60-130, 1/4 and 1/2 mile runs. I used the exact same 0 slope testing road as my BMS +3.5 tests. The DA was 580 for the Dinan test and 100 for the BMS runs , so the BMS got slightly better air, both cars had a full tank of 93 octane . I think the acceleration graphs clearly shows the difference between a proper tune and not , especially on the shifts. Traction was more of an issue with the Dinan stage 1 due to it making more power on the top of 1st gear and 2nd gear as well as an instant 1/2 shift, you can see on my 1/4 run were i had to lift at the 1/2 with the Dinan for a moment. It def has more in it, on the 60-130 as well.The first 3 are the Dinan runs.
This issue is even more pronounced with the Stage 2 update.

I was going back through my pre-tune data from early in the summer. My best ET and trap on the stock M5 was 12.05 with a trap of 120.3. With the update I had an ET of 12.05 due to poor 60ft times with a trap of 124.3. I have not gotten the shifting down yet with the Stage 2 update and so I lose traction in the 1-2 shift which I am letting the car do. I haven't done any runs with DSC off and shifting myself but I think I will go out and try that this week.

I am getting ready to tune the Porsche and looking at the FVD piggyback as my choice instead of the GIAC flash. I still can't get over how much faster the M6 is than the 5.

Last edited by wrsbmw; 10-27-2014 at 07:18 AM..
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      10-27-2014, 09:53 AM   #21
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There is so much good info in this post. This is a great help to the community. Thank you guys.
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      10-27-2014, 06:11 PM   #22
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Yep the m6 is faster than the m5. I was surprised too.
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