10-24-2013, 09:31 AM | #45 |
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Both cars are great offerings from one of the biggest & best German rivalries. Each car has its strengths and weaknesses. To each their own, I enjoyed this video although Lieberman's voice annoys me.
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10-24-2013, 09:35 AM | #46 |
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Leiberman is a clown in real life. Really though. I read it on the net. It's true!
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10-24-2013, 09:55 AM | #49 |
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No stick?
I don't understand how anyone can judge the fun-to-drive factor of a car like an M5 without going for the 6-speed. An automatic AWD like in the AMG will likely be faster, technology insures that. What splits the M5 from the AMG I would hope would be that it is more fun to drive.
And yes, it is now way too heavy. E39 M5 was the perfect one. |
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10-24-2013, 10:03 AM | #52 |
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The Elephant In The Room
I hate to say it but AMG and BMW M have swapped mantras. The BMW was always about steering control and grip at the limit and actual real life speed and the AMG was the tail wagging comfort oriented luxury barge.
It looks like they have switched roles. Yes, the AMG cheats with AWD and yes it takes the easy and obvious route to getting the numbers but it has come along way in the handling department and that is a fact. I love BMW, but I fear that they have become obsessed with chasing numbers and pleasing customers to the point of losing their edge and credibility. Before any zealots come attacking, please note that I am on my 6th M car. |
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10-24-2013, 10:06 AM | #53 | |
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10-24-2013, 10:09 AM | #54 |
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yawwwwwwn another one of these and yes another post about another one of these:
I remember when the W210 E55 went up against the E39 M5- had them both and both had disadvantages and advantages. But the forum wars were incorrigible with grown ass men arguing (I assume grown) Then came the venerable M113K E55 in late 2002 with a tq rating over 500 lb/ft and it was the King-and the 2006 E60 came out much later and raised the wars again. But the forum wars were similar to the W210 vs E39 dialogues. I had an E55k but not an E60- I did have an E63 M6 though so I understood the engine and its weakness and strenghths. Again both cars catered to two different buyers and both had advantages. Then AMG went to N/A for a bit and that was ......... boring to me as I had a W212 E63 and it was rather slow but sounded great. M didnt bring anything new during that time frame. Now we have the two going at it again- both with turbo variants and I have had 3 versions of this M157 AMG engine and two versions of the S63tu. Again advantages and disadvantages. But the same internet forum arguments. Ive had 6 M's and 8 AMG's both great and both have me wanting the other. I fucking love cars and love that these battles keep coming- it makes each side want to one up each other and we (the end user) end up winning. I sure have. Ive never regretted one M car Ive bought and the same goes for AMG. I think AMG has upped their lack of driveability and feel to draw closer to M and M has finally added tq to their specs. In this video I like the M for looks, rolling speed power, and tranny and the AMG for sound and launch capabilities. I think the M feels better in handling vs the AMG (i have had 2 W212's) and the rear airmatic drives me nuts. Again these characteristics cater very subjectively to the owner. Im glad we have the ability to buy both or choose between them.
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10-24-2013, 10:44 AM | #58 |
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Interesting. I'd love to track the E63 just to see what it is capable of doing. Canyon roads are OK, but to get a real sense of what the car is capable of, i.e., 8/10 or higher it needs to be on a track, back to back.
Until then: M differential + track = WIN. I'll stand by that
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10-24-2013, 10:48 AM | #60 | |
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Do they cut timing due to higher temps given reduced airflow relative to a moving vehicle? Of course they do, as you know all cars do so. As you know there is a general trend whereby cars with increasing power, compression, timing, and/or boost are more susceptible to this effect. Obviously this is also a function of cooling capacity as well. The E and M in this test face exactly the same challenge with respect to reduced airflow. Your point is that putting the power down more effectively at beginning of a run = faster ET AND higher trap. And that all else being equal the AWD car puts the power down more effectively therefore traps higher... all else being equal. You've clearly spent a lot of time at the dragstrip right? You clearly have a vast and varied exposure to all things related to drag racing. Then I'm sure you've seen a powerful RWD car switch from streets to slicks and ET improves but trap speeds fall. Given the amount of exposure you've had and your knowledge base I'm sure you're familiar with this phenomenon... so how do you explain it? BTW.... a little quick to throw "ignorant" out eh. |
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10-24-2013, 10:56 AM | #61 | |
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The AMG is 140lbs heavier because of AWD. In the motortrend test, the car's weren't equal. The M5 had carbon ceramic brakes compared to the standard ones on the E63, yet they both stopped at 106 ft. Standard brakes on a car that is 140lbs heavier are better than BMW's 9k optional carbon's? The E63 also didn't have the $1700 5 spoke light forged wheel option. The carbon ceramic brakes saves over 22 pounds and the lighter wheels would reduce rotational mass. 3.6s is AMG's estimated 0-60 speed, but european reviews (non-english with subtitles) had it clocked at 3.2 seconds. All objective testing will differ due to track condition, weather, wind, temp, etc. That is why test numbers differ from one to another. Accept the fact that both are great cars and the average person will be impressed that you can afford to drive either one. I don't understand the bashing of a well engineered AMG when they clearly stepped up to the plate. We wouldn't have seen the competition package had AMG not released the S version. It is BMW's response so that it wouldn't fall behind its competition. I'll dig up Chris Harris' review of the E63. He's a journalist that even BMW drivers think knows how to drive. |
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10-24-2013, 11:01 AM | #63 |
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disagree with that guy.
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10-24-2013, 11:05 AM | #64 |
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M5 has better top end. By the quarter mile its trap speed is edging out the benz (factor in awd launch and how it catches up and passes it by then). I want to see a half mile race.
Ill wait on the chris harris review though. No drifts. No fun!! |
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10-24-2013, 11:13 AM | #65 | |
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Sorry if you didn't like the "ignorant" comment.... I only responded in-kind to the inference that my lack of knowledge led me to believe something was wrong with the dyno run.. |
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10-24-2013, 11:15 AM | #66 |
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I love BMWs but for those of you that haven't been keeping up in recent years, the folks in the AMG division have really been stepping their game up drastically since late 2011.
I just commented on this in another thread actually. I've driven the E90 M3, the E92, and the E93. I now own a '13 C63. It is one of the most neutral cars I've ever driven. Yes, it's a bit on the heavy side but man is it a joy to drive. Steering feel is incredible. So predictable and easy to control once you decide to step the rear out. I just shake my head whenever I see someone flippantly say, "Oh the M3 just handles so much better . . ." or "The C63 is faster, until you add a corner." Just absolute nonsense. On the road, the 2012+ C63s are 100% as capable as the E9X M3s. On tight, technical tracks, the C63's weight becomes a bit of a penalty and the M3, being the lighter, more surgical instrument, gains a slight advantage. Even then, the C63 delivers 90% of what the M3 can. This extraordinary handling advantage for the M3 is fairytale stuff. It appears that AMG has done more than merely narrow the gap in the E63 vs. M5 battle; it appears that AMG is starting to win it. This isn't the first review where the E63 has been praised; nor will it be the last. And I saw some posts asking about what Chris Harris thinks about the new E63. In short, he loves it, I'll find his review of it and embed it shortly. All that said, the M5 is still a fantastic car and I surely wouldn't turn down the opportunity to drive/own one.
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