[tranquility]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Hmm going in together (McLaren and Ferrari) on the same Webasto roof that weighs 101lbs is some how not being lazy? What are Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Audi, Porsche, Rolls Royce, etc etc doing? Whole lazy lot of 'em.

Ya, would've been lazy not to think of how to get away from that fugly rag default that retrogrouches can't seem to let go of.

Ferrari/McLaren>rest.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by lemetier

The E89 wasn't "popular". Total production was down over 42% compared to the E85.

No doubt. But then that fact was never up for debate anyway.

The F83 does a decent amount but that is a different market segment.

Agree, however, the point is that drop-top M vehicles still maintain healthy sales. In other words, the fact that a vehicle is a convertible clearly does not disqualify it from being marketable as an M product. Other factors may, but that is not one of them.

The E85/6 M's arrived at a very bad economic time that significantly impacted sales.

Which applied to everything else on the market, too. The roadster still trounced the coupe. Looking at the numbers, the best we can say for the coupe is that the M model makes up a much larger percentage of its overall total. And that's great, but that doesn't fix the problem that's it's overall total is still a fraction of the roadster.

It isn't hard to justify.

...

An M Coupe would cost no more to bring to market than the Roadster and allows a unique positioning plan.

If and only if a Series coupe exists. So far, none is planned.

Had you, at the outset, said that an M would make sense if BMW were also building a coupe, that might have made for a more reasonable suggestion.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

If and only if a Series coupe exists. So far, none is planned.

Had you, at the outset, said that an M would make sense if BMW were also building a coupe, that might have made for a more reasonable suggestion.

The Supra is the series Coupe just as the Z4 is the series Roadster. I didn't think that had to be made black and white. It's why I also suggested going Roadster for a Toyota Crown/Lexus Version using the same drivetrain.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by lemetier

The Supra is the series Coupe just as the Z4 is the series Roadster. I didn't think that had to be made black and white.

That wasn't clear because it doesn't stand up to reason. These aren't badge engineered vehicles - they are merely platform mates. You can't just swap a grill and badges and make the Supra a Z4. So, if that's your plan, then this isn't true:

Originally Posted by lemetier

An M Coupe would cost no more to bring to market than the Roadster.

Furthermore, that still doesn't support the idea of making the M a coupe only. The numbers are the numbers. If they are taking the time to do an M, there's no reason to cut the roadster out of it.

I'd love to see BMW build a Z4 coupe and then do an M for both. If only the market were still there to support all of this. Of course, like most people with a family, I can't really complain because I can't justify a two-seater anyway.

[SCOTT26]

This is not the Mercedes-Benz X-Klasse/Nissan Navara.
Z4 and Supura use clean body designs that reflect their physical brands. It isn't a rebadging exercise.
The Z4 could become a Coupe and vice versa but we have to wait and see what the market reaction is like first of all.
It's a shrinking segment.

[Rick Hunter]

I wouldn't bother to wait for a potential Z4 Coupé... I'd head straight for the Supra.

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by tranquility

... Never cared for Merc, such a boring, non-sporty brand for old rich dudes. Their latest offering is just uber-rice German-style.

You mean the guys that make this, which wipes the floor with anything bmw makes? Same guys at the top of F1? You know, the ones that are also building a hyper car right now?





So boring

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

You mean the guys that make this, which wipes the floor with anything bmw makes? Same guys at the top of F1? You know, the ones that are also building a hyper car right now?

...


So boring

Ya, I knew someone would bite w/ those retorts. Yes, that thing is so German-rice, esp the premier'd green one...and they kinda copied the Z4 and put it on steroids. The clean one is much better, and, yes, the rest of their lineup is ZZZzzzzzZZzzzzzzzz. Also, F1 doesn't translate directly into *road* cars. BMWs still have sexier designs.

[MalibuBimmer]

[supra93]

Originally Posted by jts1981

What cars have you looked at with a folding metal roof, and how many of those did not work?

I've looked at ragtops and everyone had an issue. Weathered fabric,rips, tears, etc.

This, my neighbor's 12 yo SC430 still works fine.

Yup, our CLK is starting to leak by the A pillars and starting to rip by the rear window.

[AKRAPOVICOWNS]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Ya, I knew someone would bite w/ those retorts. Yes, that thing is so German-rice, esp the premier'd green one...and they kinda copied the Z4 and put it on steroids. The clean one is much better, and, yes, the rest of their lineup is ZZZzzzzzZZzzzzzzzz. Also, F1 doesn't translate directly into *road* cars. BMWs still have sexier designs.

Lol

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Ya, I knew someone would bite w/ those retorts. Yes, that thing is so German-rice, esp the premier'd green one...and they kinda copied the Z4 and put it on steroids. The clean one is much better, and, yes, the rest of their lineup is ZZZzzzzzZZzzzzzzzz. Also, F1 doesn't translate directly into *road* cars. BMWs still have sexier designs.

Well, you can order an M4 in Small Penis Green also, and their hypercar is going to have an engine based on their F1 design

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...s-amg-hypercar

Meanwhile, no new Z4 M planned but plenty of 4/5/6GT's!

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

Well, you can order an M4 in Small Penis Green also, and their hypercar is going to have an engine based on their F1 design

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...s-amg-hypercar

Meanwhile, no new Z4 M planned but plenty of 4/5/6GT's!

That's not the pt. The pt is that Merc *chose* to premiere their car in that color thinking "yes, that's the best way we will introduce our latest offering to the world! It looks good in puke fluorescent green, all those contrived lines and w/ that mega wing sticking out!!!!". Like I said, German rice.


As for the F1-derivative, wake me up if/when it comes out. No one said BMW doesn't sucks in not having a true supercar in its line-up, I'm just reiterating that Mercs are boring af....basically high-class Toyotas lol.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

That wasn't clear because it doesn't stand up to reason. These aren't badge engineered vehicles - they are merely platform mates. You can't just swap a grill and badges and make the Supra a Z4. So, if that's your plan, then this isn't true:

Furthermore, that still doesn't support the idea of making the M a coupe only. The numbers are the numbers. If they are taking the time to do an M, there's no reason to cut the roadster out of it.

I'd love to see BMW build a Z4 coupe and then do an M for both. If only the market were still there to support all of this. Of course, like most people with a family, I can't really complain because I can't justify a two-seater anyway.

Correct they are not the typical "Badge Engineered" Vehicles. They also are not as diverse as say a G11 and G30 that are GKL platform mates either. My "plan" isn't just swapping the grill and badges. Right now there is still too much camo on the Supra mules to show where the 100% shared body structures and hard points are visible from the exterior. I'm also not floating this out loud as an "online enthusiast". It is based off of actual discussions I've been in with both parties in respect to potential offerings they individually have interest in exploring should the conditions necessary come to fruition.

As you say, the numbers are the numbers. I'm basing this off of numbers that are restricted to a maximum permissible under some regulatory carve outs that are not often discussed and in some cases, still a year from being ratified. It also takes into account a current M model not being replaced 1:1 when the series model its based on is replaced soon with a new generation. This "///M Coupe" would take its namesake and be positioned in a unique way. I also am not "cutting" the Roadster out completely, but using these carve-outs for it to be under a different brand. I don't see more than 500-1000 additional sales above the M40i model in the current market for an M Roadster. It wouldn't be the smallest volume M Vehicle, but it's still in the top 4.

When more camo is shed off the test mules, we could continue this under a new thread. It would be great to see what interest from the enthusiasts themselves produce for any additional derivatives.

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

This is not the Mercedes-Benz X-Klasse/Nissan Navara.
Z4 and Supra use clean body designs that reflect their physical brands. It isn't a rebadging exercise.
The Z4 could become a Coupe and vice versa but we have to wait and see what the market reaction is like first of all.
It's a shrinking segment.

Certainly not the X-Class/Navara situation (and the unique way it came to fruition).

I think you likely understand and may have already heard some of this internally.
The segment shrunk and continues a downward trend, but that was guaranteed to happen. I think the E89 and going single model with the folding roof was the wrong approach. There wasn't room for both it and the SLK (SLC). With that model going away, and a segment replacement on the new platform several years down the road, the opportunity will open for other manufacturers, but that window won't be open for long.

I spoke with Sen Graham recently and touched on this vaguely amidst the other more significant issues that need to be addressed soon. I rather not be in the public eye again, but will if it gets to a certain point. There is another company that has expressed to me privately, a desire to enter into a JVA with BMW/Toyota. It's a very good match IMO that would be near zero risk and has tremendous upside, not only with further utilization and complementary products based of the JV Sports Car Platform, but for manufacturing efficiencies that will soon be necessary to adjust for global changes.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by lemetier

I'm also not floating this out loud as an "online enthusiast". It is based off of actual discussions I've been in with both parties in respect to potential offerings they individually have interest in exploring should the conditions necessary come to fruition.

You've suggested a few times recently that your current position gives you some, let's say, specialized access to non-public information, yielding a unique understanding of the automotive market and also of regulatory concerns within it. Maybe that it is indeed the case. My inclination based on the content and language used in your posts is to cautiously accept your claims for the time being for the sake of argument. I obviously have no way of verifying it one way or another, and it is clear that you aren't interested in giving any specifics on that topic that would help us validate your claims.

At the same time, I'm sure you can appreciate that it doesn't make sense to let anonymous sources post what they please unchecked or unchallenged. The goal here is to either deal in facts, or to qualify material as speculation when that's what it is. We have known insiders who have a very good track record for providing facts that aren't necessarily available via a simple Google search. Typically, when they speak up, we listen. Hopefully, if you are equipped as you say, you can land on that list. Either way, I hope you enjoy the forum. As you have probably already concluded, it is legitimately the best place on the internet for up-to-date information on BMW, and is among the best automotive forums out there, period.

I don't see more than 500-1000 additional sales above the M40i model in the current market for an M Roadster. It wouldn't be the smallest volume M Vehicle, but it's still in the top 4.

If they put a ~500hp S58 under the hood, the car doesn't weigh in more than ~3500lbs, it has an MSRP starting not over ~$75k, and it gets generally positive reviews, I think it could sell every bit of that in the first year alone. Looking at the landscape, this would put them in position to beat the 380hp V6 F-Type roadster in price while offering more power than the entry level $100k+ AMG GT roadster.

Now maybe the specs aren't achievable at a cost to support the necessary price point. But theoretically they should be. Or maybe the problem isn't the specs but the the chassis isn't there to compete in that arena no matter how much M magic is cast upon it. That would be shame though, because for a chassis that is supposed to also support a vehicle that will be marketed as a Supra, I would think it could be made to perform at a high level on the track even without the fixed roof.

A coupe would be awesome too, sure, but even having just an M roadster similar to what I describe would make for a great product.

[supra93]

Does anyone know if the Toyota will use a BMW drivetrain? This has been a much heated debate amongst enthusiast on the other side.

[jts1981]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

If they put a ~500hp S58 under the hood, the car doesn't weigh in more than ~3500lbs, it has an MSRP starting not over ~$75k, and it gets generally positive reviews, I think it could sell every bit of that in the first year alone. Looking at the landscape, this would put them in position to beat the 380hp V6 F-Type roadster in price while offering more power than the entry level $100k+ AMG GT roadster.

I agree with those specs. I believe the e89 Z4 curb weight is around 3,362 lbs according to Wiki. But larger M wheel/ tire, M brakes, extra cooling, extra body (wide fenders, etc) would bring it up.

I would like to see some carbon reinforced plastics being used on an M model.

I would like to see M roadster + Coupe also....because....why not?

Side note if there is not an M version, I wouldn't mind as long as an enthusiast can raid the parts bin like I was able to do for my e89. I think its great that the Toyota version will be the Supra. That alone will have all the Japanese after market leaders involved. If we can't get M suspension + brakes + diff we can source from Supra.

[supra93]

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by supra93

Does anyone know if the Toyota will use a BMW drivetrain? This has been a much heated debate amongst enthusiast on the other side.

Thats a very good question.
Someone here said it would get a transaxle (so def. not (current) bmw tech), but posted a picture of it and that turned out to be a transaxle from an LFA (a bit too expensive for a z4 I imagine )

But maybe the better question is, will it predominantly be a german car or a japanese car.
Will the tranmission be made by Toyota's long long partner Aisin or will it come from ZF/Getrag? (BMW's OEM)
Same goes for shocks (Sachs or Tokico? KYB?), suspension arms/bushings, driveshafts, etc etc.
Car manufacturers ususally have OEMS with working relations going back 50 years or more. Thats not going to be easy to give up.

My guess is that, as they will both be build in Austria, it will most likely be made of BMW tech (or better said: german engineering/OEM's). But thats just a speculation.
I guess we wont know until parts start to show up in the ETK, as press release photos usually dont focus on that kind of information (not interesting to the general public)

[supra93]

Looks the Z and Supra will use the same brakes.

Brembo brakes to go on the Supra

http://www.supramkv.com/threads/the-...the-supra.625/

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by supra93

Looks the Z and Supra will use the same brakes.

Brembo brakes to go on the Supra

Those are only the calipers.

My guess is that the discs for certain will be bmw.
BMW has (as one of the few manufacturers in the world) their own brake disc manufacturing plant (in Berlin, next to their motorcycle plant).
Most other carmanufacturers outsource that.

BMW has been using Brembo calipers for some time now, from the moment they started to fit painted aluminium multipiston calipers on cars.
135i was I believe the first one. (6 piston brembo brake sports packeage)

[supra93]

Is this rendering pretty close?