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      09-19-2017, 11:26 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Watching The World Burn View Post
Well...the anger in your statement suggests you give at least one shit, and probably two or three...like someone else said - that statement is telling of your character.

I'm not offended by your views, I'm just mystified when people are so riled up that someone disagrees with their viewpoint that they lash out and blame religion as though somehow this will solve everything.
its just a fact that religious people oppose gay marriage. there is no anger in my statement and if there was then my post just didnt translate well. although it is pretty obvious youre just trying to instigate so whatever.

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But enough to reply twice to this thread
here is a third, now im fuming...
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      09-19-2017, 11:38 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by aozer View Post
its just a fact that religious people oppose gay marriage. there is no anger in my statement and if there was then my post just didnt translate well. although it is pretty obvious youre just trying to instigate so whatever.
Oh look..."evangelical religious people"!

https://www.cathedralofhope.com/

Time to check your facts, zippy
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      09-19-2017, 11:45 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Watching The World Burn View Post
I don't mean it is arrogant to look at what a definition has been for the last 20 years or so, I mean it is arrogant to think we can change the definition of what something has been for thousands of years, because in the last 20 years, a vocal minority which has been growing, would like to see it changed. That's what I think is arrogant. We're not that enlightened.
Well, language is a fluid substance (metaphorically).
The words we say and meaning we give to it can change within a generation.
And I think that has been the case for a long time now as generation gaps have been described for hundreds of years. I for one dont use the same words and sentences as my grandparents used to use.
And as in this case de definition of marriage is a legal one, it is not up to tradition to dictate what it means but up to the lawmakers to what it means.
The concept of same sex marriage is a legal concept in this topic, not the concept what it means to the church or so.
So imho it has nothing to doe with enlightenment but with the law and what rights and obligations we connect with that.
And in that scope the majority of the western world has given it a different meaning than the traditional/religious meaning.

Some people use the word marriage for putting an engine in a car... go figure I get confused... which one is the husband and which one is the bride....

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I live in the first country that legally allowed same sex marriages.
Maybe enlightenment comes with the years and that if you're so used to seeing gay/lesbian married couples for so many many years, marriage means something different than the traditional man-woman unionship
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      09-19-2017, 12:15 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Watching The World Burn View Post


Even more than that - their hands are in a lot of other places they have no business being in. The Canadian government needs to stop trying to raise my children for me for one. I'm the parent, not the government and not the teachers.


Agree. People get so wrapped up in the 'this or that' argument that they forget to ask themselves why government is involved in the institution of marriage at all. That is the real argument here.
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      09-19-2017, 01:21 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Kev312 View Post
Oh look..."evangelical religious people"!

https://www.cathedralofhope.com/

Time to check your facts, zippy
wow, one outlier. congrats.
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      09-19-2017, 04:12 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Kev312 View Post
Oh look..."evangelical religious people"!

https://www.cathedralofhope.com/

Time to check your facts, zippy
To be fair, that is a church of apostasy and hubris, not a Church of God.
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      09-19-2017, 04:18 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by fravel View Post
To be fair, that is a church of apostasy and hubris, not a Church of God.
Just read their "about us" statement.

True dat.
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      09-19-2017, 04:22 PM   #30
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The concept of marriage was more about the resulting children, than it was the union of two people. And since gay marriage cannot produce children, it defacto didn't include gay couples. In recent decades our western society has become more self-focused, so gay "marriage" is on the agenda.

The slippery slope is that marriage is no longer restricted to.... anything. If I want to marry my dog - why not? My car - why not? Awarding human status to non-humans, inanimate objects, etc. isn't workable.
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      09-19-2017, 04:24 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The slippery slope is that marriage is no longer restricted to.... anything. If I want to marry my dog - why not? My car - why not? Awarding human status to non-humans, inanimate objects, etc. isn't workable.
http://adam4d.com/marriage-equality/
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      09-19-2017, 05:19 PM   #32
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      09-19-2017, 05:30 PM   #33
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Ha! That was great.
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      09-19-2017, 06:10 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post

The slippery slope is that marriage is no longer restricted to.... anything. If I want to marry my dog - why not? My car - why not? Awarding human status to non-humans, inanimate objects, etc. isn't workable.
Peter Griffin married a blueberry pie on 'Family Guy', seemed legit to me
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      09-19-2017, 08:32 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmmQuattro View Post
In a gay marriage,
I don't know who's the husband and who's the wife - I get confused.
You are over (or under) thinking it.
In a man-man relationship, they are both a ‘husband’.
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      09-20-2017, 12:08 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The concept of marriage was more about the resulting children, than it was the union of two people. And since gay marriage cannot produce children, it defacto didn't include gay couples. In recent decades our western society has become more self-focused, so gay "marriage" is on the agenda.

The slippery slope is that marriage is no longer restricted to.... anything. If I want to marry my dog - why not? My car - why not? Awarding human status to non-humans, inanimate objects, etc. isn't workable.
I love the slippery slope argument. If we open up this one thing just an inch all Hell will break loose and suddenly people can marry their toaster! Just change the laws to read "Marriage is between two human beings, regardless of gender." Simple. Done. No toasters.

I myself could not care less if two committed people of any sex want to get hitched, get F'd on taxes, and generally be as miserable as most traditional married couples. Have at it!


Edit: Thought about this more last night. Not directed at you bbbbmw; just my random thoughts on the subject:

I just don't see a valid argument against legalizing gay marriage.

1) The Slippery slope argument - Addressed above.
2) Your ruining the sanctity of marriage - Well how's your God feel about divorce? If your church wants to forbid gay marriage, go for it. I'm 100% supportive of that right. But ban divorce while your at it. Otherwise your a F'ing hypocrite.
3) Nature didn't intend it this way - Wrong. Gay couples occur in many species.
4) Marriage is for the production of children - Wrong. Go back to sex ed. It's not marriage that makes the babies.

Last edited by DETRoadster; 09-20-2017 at 09:25 AM.
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      09-20-2017, 07:02 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seedyrom View Post
You are over (or under) thinking it.
In a man-man relationship, they are both a ‘husband’.
That would work, except for the fact that I've had a few Lesbian's introduce me to their 'husbands'
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      09-20-2017, 01:45 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post

The slippery slope is that marriage is no longer restricted to.... anything. If I want to marry my dog - why not? My car - why not? Awarding human status to non-humans, inanimate objects, etc. isn't workable.
Its sad that this view is still persistent. A slippery slope argument is a lazy way to go from A to Z without the logical consistencies of the remaining letters in between.
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      09-20-2017, 02:20 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
I love the slippery slope argument. If we open up this one thing just an inch all Hell will break loose and suddenly people can marry their toaster! Just change the laws to read "Marriage is between two human beings, regardless of gender." Simple. Done. No toasters.

I myself could not care less if two committed people of any sex want to get hitched, get F'd on taxes, and generally be as miserable as most traditional married couples. Have at it!


Edit: Thought about this more last night. Not directed at you bbbbmw; just my random thoughts on the subject:

I just don't see a valid argument against legalizing gay marriage.

1) The Slippery slope argument - Addressed above.
2) Your ruining the sanctity of marriage - Well how's your God feel about divorce? If your church wants to forbid gay marriage, go for it. I'm 100% supportive of that right. But ban divorce while your at it. Otherwise your a F'ing hypocrite.
3) Nature didn't intend it this way - Wrong. Gay couples occur in many species.
4) Marriage is for the production of children - Wrong. Go back to sex ed. It's not marriage that makes the babies.
I think you misinterpreted my post:

1. I don't agree with your analysis of slippery slope. Should a person be able to marry their sibling? Or their child? Why not polygamy? Those have historically been ruled out because of their effect upon the children of such unions - if you remove the focus from children, then anything becomes more acceptable.

2. I didn't post anything about God or religion (or related sanctity), in terms of marriage. In terms of a slippery slope, however, many religious freedoms have been trampled in the acceptance of gay marriage - see the bakery lawsuits, event forums, etc. that refuse to perform services for gay weddings. I'm also not sure where you are coming from on banning divorce, but that's a separate topic, and subject to your perceptions.

3. What "gay couples appear in many species?"

4. I also didn't say (at all) that marriage was for the production of children. A significant portion of a marriage union is to provide a stable environment for the offspring of the union, to allow them to grow and thrive.
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      09-20-2017, 03:04 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I think you misinterpreted my post:

1. I don't agree with your analysis of slippery slope. Should a person be able to marry their sibling? Or their child? Why not polygamy? Those have historically been ruled out because of their effect upon the children of such unions - if you remove the focus from children, then anything becomes more acceptable.

2. I didn't post anything about God or religion (or related sanctity), in terms of marriage. In terms of a slippery slope, however, many religious freedoms have been trampled in the acceptance of gay marriage - see the bakery lawsuits, event forums, etc. that refuse to perform services for gay weddings. I'm also not sure where you are coming from on banning divorce, but that's a separate topic, and subject to your perceptions.

3. What "gay couples appear in many species?"

4. I also didn't say (at all) that marriage was for the production of children. A significant portion of a marriage union is to provide a stable environment for the offspring of the union, to allow them to grow and thrive.
LOL, now you misinterpreted mine! My numbered thoughts were not directed a you or your post. That's why I said "Not directed at you, just my random thoughts." I probably could have bolded that or put it in a separate post so it was clear I was not directing that at you. My apologies!

1 - Slippery Slope - I do think the concerns can be mitigated with properly worded laws that allow two adults of any gender to marry. We have managed to have heterosexual marriage for years without it sliding down the slippery slope of a man marrying his female sister or his 3 girlfriends.

2 - No, you did not mention religion. That was just my ramblings, not directed at you. My point is that many people of faith are against gay marriage but seem to turn a blind eye to divorce. I think that's wrong. If you want to hang your hat on what "God intended" then you better consider banning divorce if you are going to go ahead and ban gay marriage in your church. As for the bakery lawsuits, you might be surprised to find that I probably agree with you (just guessing at what your position is). I don't think private industry should be forced to provide goods or services to anyone and everyone. if a baker doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay couple, fine. That's his prerogative. Just like he shouldn't have to bake a cake for someone who is unruly and disrespectful towards him. Or someone who is wearing a Red Sox shirt when he's a rabid Yankees fan. If he wants to turn down business that's on him.

3 - Penguins are the first that jump to mind simply because I saw them myself at the NYC zoo.

4 - I misunderstood your post as equating children as the reason for marriage. My apologies.

Last edited by DETRoadster; 09-20-2017 at 03:10 PM.
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      09-20-2017, 04:34 PM   #41
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LOL, now you misinterpreted mine! My numbered thoughts were not directed a you or your post. That's why I said "Not directed at you, just my random thoughts." I probably could have bolded that or put it in a separate post so it was clear I was not directing that at you. My apologies!

1 - Slippery Slope - I do think the concerns can be mitigated with properly worded laws that allow two adults of any gender to marry. We have managed to have heterosexual marriage for years without it sliding down the slippery slope of a man marrying his female sister or his 3 girlfriends.

2 - No, you did not mention religion. That was just my ramblings, not directed at you. My point is that many people of faith are against gay marriage but seem to turn a blind eye to divorce. I think that's wrong. If you want to hang your hat on what "God intended" then you better consider banning divorce if you are going to go ahead and ban gay marriage in your church. As for the bakery lawsuits, you might be surprised to find that I probably agree with you (just guessing at what your position is). I don't think private industry should be forced to provide goods or services to anyone and everyone. if a baker doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay couple, fine. That's his prerogative. Just like he shouldn't have to bake a cake for someone who is unruly and disrespectful towards him. Or someone who is wearing a Red Sox shirt when he's a rabid Yankees fan. If he wants to turn down business that's on him.

3 - Penguins are the first that jump to mind simply because I saw them myself at the NYC zoo.

4 - I misunderstood your post as equating children as the reason for marriage. My apologies.
Yes - I did misunderstand! That said:

1. We've had numerous lawsuits, etc. from people wanting to marry their sibling, and polygamists - many suits for many years.

2. The Bible doesn't ban divorce, so I doubt churches would?

3. "San Francisco’s Fox affiliate KTVU reports: “The San Francisco Zoo’s popular same-sex penguin couple has broken up.
“Male Magellan penguins Harry and Pepper have been together since 2003. The pair nested together and even incubated an egg laid by another penguin in 2008, but their relationship hit the rocks earlier this year when a female penguin, Linda, befriended Harry after her long-time companion died.

“Zookeepers say Harry and Linda are happy and were able to successfully nest this year,” reported KTVU.

But not everyone is celebrating Harry and Linda’s newfound love. Some believe there can be no such a thing as an “ex-gay” penguin. Upon news of Harry’s decision to fly the same-sex-coop, outspoken pro-homosexual activist and anti-ex-gay crusader Wayne Besen cried fowl:

“Attempts to change sexual orientation are patently offensive, discriminatory by definition, theologically shaky, uniformly unsuccessful and medically unsound!” exclaimed a visibly angry Besen. “There is no ‘ex-gay’ sexual orientation. Harry is simply in denial. He’s living what I call the ‘big lie.’”

From what I read, what appears to be homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom does exist (although it's almost always more about dominance), but none are exclusively homosexual.
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      09-20-2017, 07:10 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Yes - I did misunderstand! That said:

1. We've had numerous lawsuits, etc. from people wanting to marry their sibling, and polygamists - many suits for many years.

2. The Bible doesn't ban divorce, so I doubt churches would?

3. "San Francisco’s Fox affiliate KTVU reports: “The San Francisco Zoo’s popular same-sex penguin couple has broken up.
“Male Magellan penguins Harry and Pepper have been together since 2003. The pair nested together and even incubated an egg laid by another penguin in 2008, but their relationship hit the rocks earlier this year when a female penguin, Linda, befriended Harry after her long-time companion died.

“Zookeepers say Harry and Linda are happy and were able to successfully nest this year,” reported KTVU.

But not everyone is celebrating Harry and Linda’s newfound love. Some believe there can be no such a thing as an “ex-gay” penguin. Upon news of Harry’s decision to fly the same-sex-coop, outspoken pro-homosexual activist and anti-ex-gay crusader Wayne Besen cried fowl:

“Attempts to change sexual orientation are patently offensive, discriminatory by definition, theologically shaky, uniformly unsuccessful and medically unsound!” exclaimed a visibly angry Besen. “There is no ‘ex-gay’ sexual orientation. Harry is simply in denial. He’s living what I call the ‘big lie.’”

From what I read, what appears to be homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom does exist (although it's almost always more about dominance), but none are exclusively homosexual.
NO!!! They broke up? What the Hell! I hadn't heard that. Well there goes that theory.

I'll defer to you on the religious side of things, given that I'm far from church-going. Not my expertise. But it does seem strange to me that two people having a religious ceremony in a church, in front of God, swearing an oath to him and to each other to be together forever, would not be looked down upon for breaking that commitment.

At the end of the day, I just don't see any irreparable harm coming from affording gay couples the same right to enter into a state recognized contract of marriage, just like the rest of us can. Just my 2 cents. Others can disagree if they like.
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      09-20-2017, 08:02 PM   #43
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Don't know why people are so hell bent on judging an individual by who they decide to marry. It is their relationship and their personal life. This is one of those things where if everyone minded their own business the world would be a much better place.
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