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      09-02-2012, 08:44 AM   #23
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I disagree on the fact that the car is almost the same as the E60 M5 and doesn't offer anything new! I have driven it last week and IMO it is nothing like its predecessor.. it is different in many ways. You can feel the evolution that has been brought along with it.
Bottom line, every car caters to a specific consumer segment.. An M car is not a GTR nor a Ferrari.. it doesn't aspire to be. M cars offer a complete package that only M drivers appreciate and competition envy and Yes people will continue to buy them. Only time will tell.
Yes, other brands could offer more power and rawness, but they miss out on the overal everyday Ultimate Driving experience.
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      09-02-2012, 09:15 AM   #24
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You make a lot of assumptions. He drives the car in the snow like it is a damn truck. I'm sorry if that is something you can not wrap your brain around. Also, you are the one that seems to have the need to defend something, I could care less if you get your panties all bunched up or not. misguided? The engine is special to me, clearly you disagree. LOL

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Originally Posted by conradb View Post
1)...How exactly do you drive a car like a truck?

2) It's not a special engine by any stretch.... I'm not saying... I'm saying that you're highly misguided if you think it's special. You seem to be more interested in defending BMW as a brand than asking the hard questions...
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      09-02-2012, 10:10 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty
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Originally Posted by mhabs View Post
Wow....excellent articulation of the key issue: no major innovation engine wise, unlike every precedent generation of M cars, yet BMW is still charging a premium price. Also the reason why the new M cars are losing more than 50% of comparison tests (vs close to 0% in prior gens) - the competition has moved forward, BMW hasn't.
BMW is moving like Toyota. Top priority is expansion (China) and units (China).

~Frost
You hit the nail on the head.
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      09-02-2012, 10:24 AM   #26
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Red, Conrad has two valid points. Every engine from previous ///M generation have been special. This engine is a modified engine and nothing new built from the start up.

All the luxury innovation was
There when the 525 came out in 2010. The gills are a shame and without the 4 exhaust tip and fog lights it hard to tell the difference between the 550i and ///M5 from a cosmetic point of view.

Please don't think I have anything against the brand. I've owned 7 bimmers and 3 ///M cars. I am also heavily consider getting an ///M5 or ///M6 for Xmas and replacing my old X5 with X6M.

What I will give the Russian guy is as BMW continue to move up in price they better continue innovating our cars because I will not continue buying ///M just for the marketing letter.
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      09-02-2012, 03:33 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhabs View Post
Wow....excellent articulation of the key issue: no major innovation engine wise, unlike every precedent generation of M cars, yet BMW is still charging a premium price. Also the reason why the new M cars are losing more than 50% of comparison tests (vs close to 0% in prior gens) - the competition has moved forward, BMW hasn't.
BMW is moving like Toyota. Top priority is expansion (China) and units (China).

~Frost
Yup, money talks and once you are on top (of the luxury market) you tend to think you can't fail so you get lazy (+cheap) and just want to maximize profits. But let's be honest, BMW can be lackluster for another gen or two before they get knocked off the top (most likely by Audi)
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      09-02-2012, 03:40 PM   #28
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Also, there are basically two types of people that buy M cars, the enthusiast that wants a manual tranny and a cf roof and the status seeker who wants ginormous wheels and vulgar chrome trim. And let's be honest, the status seeking group is growing much faster due to the emerging markets around the world
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      09-02-2012, 05:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by cmk227 View Post
Red, Conrad has two valid points. Every engine from previous ///M generation have been special. This engine is a modified engine and nothing new built from the start up.

All the luxury innovation was
There when the 525 came out in 2010. The gills are a shame and without the 4 exhaust tip and fog lights it hard to tell the difference between the 550i and ///M5 from a cosmetic point of view.

Please don't think I have anything against the brand. I've owned 7 bimmers and 3 ///M cars. I am also heavily consider getting an ///M5 or ///M6 for Xmas and replacing my old X5 with X6M.

What I will give the Russian guy is as BMW continue to move up in price they better continue innovating our cars because I will not continue buying ///M just for the marketing letter.
Well put. I didn't even touch on the fact that the M5/6 engine is just a barely tweaked one from the X5/6M. TBH, that's really pathetic that they did that. Again, the engine is nothing close to special.

Unfortunately, BMW has been moving the M division more towards a status symbol than a raw sports car. I guess we'll never see anything like the E30 again. It may be time to look elsewhere for performance if the F80 M3 is just as fat and more luxury-oriented again. Honestly, the Z06 Vette is rather appealing for the price. Maybe even stepping up to the GT-R.
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      09-02-2012, 06:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conradb View Post
1) He claims he drove it 2500km on normal roads. How exactly do you drive a car like a truck?

Guys i speak Russian so i understood what he said 100%.

The translation is off a bit. To be more accurate, he did not drive it 2,500kms its not his M5. I would know because i follow his blog on his website. Plus if you follow his blogs, you would know he is choosing between an M5 f10 and M6 F13.

Plus someone mentioned that the ttv8 is nothing special and that BMW is not moving forward? Lets see, definitely improved from the e60 M5. Defenitly more interesting engine. Really does have Instant torque. Great Transmission. Also has a 0-60 time of 3.7.
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      09-02-2012, 07:59 PM   #31
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If he dislikes BMW;s approach with M5. He would shoot himself if he was a fan of Porsche. As their cars still look like they did two decades ago give or take a little. They tweak it here and there a little bit every year and people buy it like crazy. Some times you can't even tell what is it they did exterior change wise. Seems like they have no exterior design engineers because all new cars look like mid-cycle updates. Yet they call it all new. I guess you do not have to reinvent the wheel every time some times small improvement can make a big difference. At least the new M5 and previous M5 do not share the same exterior with slight tweaks nor same transmission or engine.
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      09-02-2012, 08:04 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexey21 View Post
Guys i speak Russian so i understood what he said 100%.

The translation is off a bit. To be more accurate, he did not drive it 2,500kms its not his M5. I would know because i follow his blog on his website. Plus if you follow his blogs, you would know he is choosing between an M5 f10 and M6 F13.

Plus someone mentioned that the ttv8 is nothing special and that BMW is not moving forward? Lets see, definitely improved from the e60 M5. Defenitly more interesting engine. Really does have Instant torque. Great Transmission. Also has a 0-60 time of 3.7.
Power is cheap. 560HP from a TT V8 is nothing special. The E60 M5/6's NA V10 was an evolutionary engine for the M line. A small NA V10 making a damn good amount of HP for a decade ago. That's something special. Taking a meh engine from a stupid sooped up SUV is double meh. BMW is more about the MPG than the HP these days, because their cars are sure as hell not getting any lighter. The 0-60 is significantly improved more from the DCT and launch control than the engine.

Last edited by conradb; 09-02-2012 at 08:13 PM..
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      09-02-2012, 08:07 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
If he dislikes BMW;s approach with M5. He would shoot himself if he was a fan of Porsche. As their cars still look like they did two decades ago give or take a little. They tweak it here and there a little bit every year and people buy it like crazy. Some times you can't even tell what is it they did exterior change wise. Seems like they have no exterior design engineers because all new cars look like mid-cycle updates. Yet they call it all new. I guess you do not have to reinvent the wheel every time some times small improvement can make a big difference. At least the new M5 and previous M5 do not share the same exterior with slight tweaks nor same transmission or engine.
Porsche really is a different league. I wouldn't compare Porsche vs BMW. The Carrera S is just as fast as any BMW M car on the track, and that's just it's mid-line cars. Not to mention they're tiny sports cars, not big fat saloon cars. They can get, what, like 30mpg from a NA 3.8L boxter 6 making 400HP? That's pretty damn impressive right there. Porsche's engine and chassis are a thing of precision art. They don't have to rapidly change each year. They are closer to perfection than BMW M has been since the E30.
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      09-02-2012, 09:03 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conradb View Post
Porsche really is a different league. I wouldn't compare Porsche vs BMW. The Carrera S is just as fast as any BMW M car on the track, and that's just it's mid-line cars. Not to mention they're tiny sports cars, not big fat saloon cars. They can get, what, like 30mpg from a NA 3.8L boxter 6 making 400HP? That's pretty damn impressive right there. Porsche's engine and chassis are a thing of precision art. They don't have to rapidly change each year. They are closer to perfection than BMW M has been since the E30.
This
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      09-02-2012, 09:28 PM   #35
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I guess they must spend all their money on engineering performance and fired their exterior designers since the cars look the same for 2 decades. Porsche fans might like the same exterior over and over again but I call it stale.

Also, I would take E9x M3 over 911 any day. The M3 is more of an all rounder compared to 911. Not to mention its design is not two decades stale.



Quote:
Originally Posted by conradb View Post
Porsche really is a different league. I wouldn't compare Porsche vs BMW. The Carrera S is just as fast as any BMW M car on the track, and that's just it's mid-line cars. Not to mention they're tiny sports cars, not big fat saloon cars. They can get, what, like 30mpg from a NA 3.8L boxter 6 making 400HP? That's pretty damn impressive right there. Porsche's engine and chassis are a thing of precision art. They don't have to rapidly change each year. They are closer to perfection than BMW M has been since the E30.
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      09-02-2012, 09:37 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conradb View Post
Porsche really is a different league. I wouldn't compare Porsche vs BMW. The Carrera S is just as fast as any BMW M car on the track, and that's just it's mid-line cars. Not to mention they're tiny sports cars, not big fat saloon cars. They can get, what, like 30mpg from a NA 3.8L boxter 6 making 400HP? That's pretty damn impressive right there. Porsche's engine and chassis are a thing of precision art. They don't have to rapidly change each year. They are closer to perfection than BMW M has been since the E30.
I'm one of the biggest Porsche fans on the planet, my father used to have a 997 Carrera S and I've spent some time driving the new 991 Carrera S so I know first hand how awesome the 911s are. But they are sports cars, that 3.8 liter flat six is a joy when you're revving it out to its redline but it makes no power in the midrange so the 911 actually feels fairly slow in more normal situations. Even though our 997 was a very light car, its engine feels flat unless you are in the lowest possible gear. As a result, both my dad and I preferred driving my 135i most of the time because its engine packs a wallop in the midrange and it's just much more usable in daily situations. If I could have a second car, it would probably be a 911, but I had to daily drive that thing for a few days and I spent most of my time miserable with my back squeezed into its narrow seats and sore from the awful ride on the freeway. (California's roads are shittier than most, so this criticism doesn't apply if you live in a place with really smooth roads). The 135i doesn't give up much to the 911 when you're blasting it down a twisty road. The 911's steering is so direct and the suspension is so hard that most mountain roads are too bumpy for it to be any good, you end up fighting the steering wheel as the car bounces around on the road. If you're a talented, experienced driver this can be a lot of fun but for most people it's just annoying and frankly a little dangerous.

For street use, cars like the F10 M5 make a whole lot more sense. I miss the sound of the old V10, but I'd take the new engine's 500lb/ft over the old 383 any day of the week. I understand the argument that today's M cars seem less special than the old ones, but I think the end result is a much better car than the old ones ever were. It took a devoted fan to own the E60 M5, to put up with its ridiculous fuel consumption and etc., but the thing that impresses me most about this new one is the fact that it fixes a lot of the compromises that had to be made to own the previous car without sacrificing much of what makes it so special.

To sum up my point, M cars have never been focused tools for the track-day driver. They were always about being the ultimate one car that would serve you every single day in every single situation. The E60 was a little more hardcore and driver oriented than any of the previous generations so maybe that's why this F10 seems disappointing to the people who want a really hardcore sedan, but for a fast daily driver I can't think of anything I would rather have except maybe a Panamera.
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      09-02-2012, 09:40 PM   #37
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How do you expect a 4200 pound + car to preform? Me personally not good at all. Or good but not the way it preforms now. For a matter a fact, the new M5 is a very successful car.

What are you saying? That the E30 was a good car, and after that nothing good has happened? Your in the 21st century, the wheel has been invented years ago, time to add on to the wheel.

So what they haven't created a new V10 with 700 horsepower, they felt that they can get more power from an engine that they already have. Rebuild it, tweak it a bit and call it an M5. The M5 is not all about the engine. Its about the handling, transmission, and the ability to be used as 2 cars in one. You want some space ship acceleration? Get a spaceship then. Haven driven the new M5, it really is a wonderful car. Im not trying to get all emotional here, but you just cant say that the new M5 engine is nothing special.

When you have driven the X5M, and then the M5, you would understand that they are 2 different cars. BMW has taken time developing the M5, not just something they slapped together in 15mins. Look at how hyped everyone is about getting the new M5. The car really is special.
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      09-02-2012, 11:56 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster
Quote:
Originally Posted by conradb View Post
Porsche really is a different league. I wouldn't compare Porsche vs BMW. The Carrera S is just as fast as any BMW M car on the track, and that's just it's mid-line cars. Not to mention they're tiny sports cars, not big fat saloon cars. They can get, what, like 30mpg from a NA 3.8L boxter 6 making 400HP? That's pretty damn impressive right there. Porsche's engine and chassis are a thing of precision art. They don't have to rapidly change each year. They are closer to perfection than BMW M has been since the E30.
I'm one of the biggest Porsche fans on the planet, my father used to have a 997 Carrera S and I've spent some time driving the new 991 Carrera S so I know first hand how awesome the 911s are. But they are sports cars, that 3.8 liter flat six is a joy when you're revving it out to its redline but it makes no power in the midrange so the 911 actually feels fairly slow in more normal situations. Even though our 997 was a very light car, its engine feels flat unless you are in the lowest possible gear. As a result, both my dad and I preferred driving my 135i most of the time because its engine packs a wallop in the midrange and it's just much more usable in daily situations. If I could have a second car, it would probably be a 911, but I had to daily drive that thing for a few days and I spent most of my time miserable with my back squeezed into its narrow seats and sore from the awful ride on the freeway. (California's roads are shittier than most, so this criticism doesn't apply if you live in a place with really smooth roads). The 135i doesn't give up much to the 911 when you're blasting it down a twisty road. The 911's steering is so direct and the suspension is so hard that most mountain roads are too bumpy for it to be any good, you end up fighting the steering wheel as the car bounces around on the road. If you're a talented, experienced driver this can be a lot of fun but for most people it's just annoying and frankly a little dangerous.

For street use, cars like the F10 M5 make a whole lot more sense. I miss the sound of the old V10, but I'd take the new engine's 500lb/ft over the old 383 any day of the week. I understand the argument that today's M cars seem less special than the old ones, but I think the end result is a much better car than the old ones ever were. It took a devoted fan to own the E60 M5, to put up with its ridiculous fuel consumption and etc., but the thing that impresses me most about this new one is the fact that it fixes a lot of the compromises that had to be made to own the previous car without sacrificing much of what makes it so special.

To sum up my point, M cars have never been focused tools for the track-day driver. They were always about being the ultimate one car that would serve you every single day in every single situation. The E60 was a little more hardcore and driver oriented than any of the previous generations so maybe that's why this F10 seems disappointing to the people who want a really hardcore sedan, but for a fast daily driver I can't think of anything I would rather have except maybe a Panamera.
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      09-03-2012, 01:06 AM   #39
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      09-03-2012, 07:54 AM   #40
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+3

Porsche is the best. Everything that BMW do or used to do well, they do even better.
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      09-03-2012, 08:24 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhabs
Wow....excellent articulation of the key issue: no major innovation engine wise, unlike every precedent generation of M cars, yet BMW is still charging a premium price. Also the reason why the new M cars are losing more than 50% of comparison tests (vs close to 0% in prior gens) - the competition has moved forward, BMW hasn't.
Seems to be an alarming trend. Think 1M. An entertaining car for sure, but I doubt you'll find the word innovative in any review. And the new M3? Rumored to have a modified N55? Really?
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      09-03-2012, 11:35 AM   #42
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Very cool. Matt is a great guy.
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      09-03-2012, 12:11 PM   #43
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1) M used to stand for Motorsports, i.e. engine and/or chassis was closely related to actual race cars;
2) The biggest innovation is the DCT in the new M5--put that tranny in the old E60, and would be no contest, despite the power "disadvantage"
3) It is a fact that BMW makes more profit margin/vehicle with the new M vehicles vs. the prior ones, mostly because of the engines are no longer bespoke. "Special" = costly to the company, but a win for the consumer.
4) For the first time in history, about half of the comparos of the new M5/M6 have them placing behind the (oftentimes less costly) competition.
5) Fuel efficiency, pollution, and noise regulations are a big deal and however M vehicles were previously comprised are even more compromised now.
6) These new M engines are not the preferred choice of the M division: "We will never produce a turbo, since that's cheating" If it were not for profitability and efficiency concerns, given it's DNA and philosophy, would probably be producing N/A engines. Of course BMW isn't run for the M division, it's run for shareholders.

While times have changed, and BMW is doing its best to adapt to new realities, there is definitely something lost with the death of the N/A bespoke engines. We all understand why BMW went down the path they did, which makes perfect business sense. The fact is consumers are getting less "value" for the dollar: With the previous M5, you were probably getting $80-$90k of value (engine, technology, bespoke content) for a $100k car; today, you are far getting less value for $105k spent, and that's what all these reviews and comparisons are reflecting vis-a-vis the competition.
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      09-03-2012, 01:26 PM   #44
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Another point I forgot to make, M may employ some of the best engineers in the business but they still have to start with the car BMW gave them. We have an F10, I know that this generation of 5 series is not a very sporty platform. Our 528i feels much more dull and lazy than a comparable E60 and I wouldn't even bother trying to compare it to the E39. Today's consumer in this segment wants a very big and very comfortable car, which the F10 is, but it would take a miracle to make an M5 based on the F10 platform as agile as the E60 M5. It's important to be realistic in your expectations.

I think there are some important advancements in the new M5 and M6, especially the new rear differential and the hard-mounted rear suspension but I can see how the new car is underwhelming compared to the past M5s. I won't say M has lost its way until the new M3 is out, though. Unlike the F10, the F30 is a fantastic platform and categorically better than the E90 so we'll see with the new M3 what today's M engineers are capable of.
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