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      10-27-2011, 04:17 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
There is no lag and torque is immediate. If anything E60 owners will see how improved this new car is.

I spent the good part of a day with a gentleman that tracks his V10 regularly and DDs it as well and he was blown away by F10. The throttle response is as good as a NA motor and the DCT is far better than the SMG. The 6spd will do nothing for the car.
I find the bolded parts nearly impossible to believe. With a more or less conventional turbo there is no way to beat the physics. Impellers have inertia and they must spin up. Also magazines have reported on the lag.
Stop fighting it. There is no noticeable lag. Get over it.
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      10-27-2011, 05:23 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phish_100 View Post
Stop fighting it. There is no noticeable lag. Get over it.
+1. I drive 2 cars almost every day, one with n55, the other n54 engine. There is no noticeable lag.
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      10-27-2011, 07:05 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phish_100 View Post
Stop fighting it. There is no noticeable lag. Get over it.
I am speaking from experience going from an e90 M3 to a 1M. The throttle response is not quite as instantaneous but it should not to be confused as turbo lag. The difference is is unnoticeable unless you drive the cars back to back. Also, the power comes on so strong even as low as 1800rpm that it makes up for the fraction of a second you miss from not having individual throttle body response. I'm sure the M5 will have similar characteristics only multiplied!
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      10-27-2011, 07:38 PM   #136
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A lot of people complaining about lag are merely pretending to be "purist" thinking that it makes them look "real drivers." In reality, it's nothing more than a resistance to change.
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      10-27-2011, 08:33 PM   #137
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Why people are so concerned about lag?
I dont think it will be as noticeable with V8 and current turbo setup
Keep in mind, it has Valvetronic now, it greatly improves throttle response too

But then again, some people are never satisfied and always find things to complain about

Last edited by AndreyATC; 10-27-2011 at 08:44 PM..
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      10-27-2011, 10:27 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbrooks18 View Post
Now who's missing the outgoing V10 again?
Fifty years from now, people will still be talking about the S85 and the fact that M division put that engine into the car, this time M divison was forced by BMW to use turbo's. I know its faster but the Sound is such a let down!
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      10-27-2011, 11:47 PM   #139
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Each subsequent generation will in all respects be better than the previous
SUBJECT to external limitation -eco mandates.

How can you not improve everything given 7yrs time and a lot of money?

But the KINK is fuel efficiency, which forces the adoption of turbo (amongst other things)

Turbo gives you alot of power, but you get lag. I have never even driven a turbo car and I can state that unequivocally.
That is why its used 'naturally' only on certain applications where it makes sense, eg. 911 Turbo AWD.

That most performance cars choose NA attest to the judgement on Power vs. Lag., (but again, Turbo has its uses, it depends what you use it for.)

So what is really going in this thread, is the debate on 1.how much better the F10 M5 is than the E60 M5, and 2.V8TT or V10

On '1.', ofcourse a the newer car will be in every respect better (how can it not?) -BUT...
'2' the issue of turbo or 2 more cylinders.
If the M5 was an SUV, or had AWD, then turbo would be more 'suitable' -but this is entirely the whole point of the debate
The issue is, is the M5 ('supposed' to be?) a sports car (-but not actually now, a "luxury cruiser") so NA is more suitable.. ?

If you break it down like this, at least you know what you are arguing about, rather than the current "are the improvements ex. engine from e60 to f10 great enough to cancel out any negative comparison in the V8TT vs V10 debate" that is currently going on.
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      10-27-2011, 11:56 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phish_100 View Post
Stop fighting it. There is no noticeable lag. Get over it.
Sarcasm? There is lag, it has been reported in tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 09 AND135I 11 View Post
+1. I drive 2 cars almost every day, one with n55, the other n54 engine. There is no noticeable lag.
The 335i's I have driven have reduced lag compared to most older turbo systems. It is however easily noticeable. You are kidding yourself if you feel it is not noticeable. Go drive an M3 and report back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you View Post
I am speaking from experience going from an e90 M3 to a 1M. The throttle response is not quite as instantaneous but it should not to be confused as turbo lag. The difference is is unnoticeable unless you drive the cars back to back. Also, the power comes on so strong even as low as 1800rpm that it makes up for the fraction of a second you miss from not having individual throttle body response.
I disagree, turbo lag is the biggest culprit in a lack of throttle response. It causes poor throttle response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clar View Post
A lot of people complaining about lag are merely pretending to be "purist" thinking that it makes them look "real drivers." In reality, it's nothing more than a resistance to change.
Look I will be the 1st to admit that the F10 M5 will outperform the E60 M5 is every way that matters. The same will be repeated for the F3X M3 vs. the E9X M3. I'm also quite keen for the greatly improved fuel efficiency. Also, as much as I often disagree with those obsessed with low rpm torque, that too will be an improvement for these FI M cars.

That being said lag and throttle response absolutely matter. Excellent throttle response:
  • Contributes to the ease of control during under/oversteer throttle balancing
  • Increases absolute performance (just like DCT trannies have real world impacts on performance)
  • Assists in overtaking - track or street
  • Provides more excitement. Let's not forget the important role of feel and emotion in driving - it is more than just the raw numbers.
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      10-28-2011, 12:13 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E46M View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbrooks18 View Post
Now who's missing the outgoing V10 again?
Fifty years from now, people will still be talking about the S85 and the fact that M division put that engine into the car, this time M divison was forced by BMW to use turbo's. I know its faster but the Sound is such a let down!
And yet some people who have actually driven it think it's the best sounding M car of all time...
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      10-28-2011, 02:24 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phish_100 View Post
And yet some people who have actually driven it think it's the best sounding M car of all time...
Especially the artificial engine simulated noise produced by a computer and the cars audio system!

Since the car has such good acoustic absorption there is not enough cabin noise. BMW psycho-acoustics folks are keenly aware of the importance of acoustics in the enjoyment and perception of a vehicles quality and even speed/performance. Thus with far too little good interior acoustic feedback they decided to pipe it in using the stereo.

I can't deny the very pragmatic German engineering approach but this is really pushing the limit toward absurdity in my opinion.

For those of you shaking your heads in disbelief, this is 100% true. No sarcasm or jokes here.

Look, don't call me a basher, hater, etc. I love BMW M and have owned many. I'd probably even have the M5 near the top of my list if I wanted to sheel out that kind of green. I simply have some legitimate gripes with some of their product direction.
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      10-28-2011, 03:32 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 09 AND135I 11 View Post
+1. I drive 2 cars almost every day, one with n55, the other n54 engine. There is no noticeable lag.
N54 and N55 are not naturally aspirated. What is that you are comparing (aside apples with apples)?

N/A engines are distinctively faster in throttle response. I came from E39 M5 and E46 M3 to 335i and, while 335i is fast and lag free, I often do not pass on tight squeeze spots on the highway because I am not confident how long will it take for the car to react. With E46 on the highway it was easy. Drop to 3rd at 5k and gun it. Response was immediate.

N54 does not have a lag, but it certainly isn't as responsive.
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      10-28-2011, 04:07 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Especially the artificial engine simulated noise produced by a computer and the cars audio system!

Since the car has such good acoustic absorption there is not enough cabin noise. BMW psycho-acoustics folks are keenly aware of the importance of acoustics in the enjoyment and perception of a vehicles quality and even speed/performance. Thus with far too little good interior acoustic feedback they decided to pipe it in using the stereo.

I can't deny the very pragmatic German engineering approach but this is really pushing the limit toward absurdity in my opinion.

For those of you shaking your heads in disbelief, this is 100% true. No sarcasm or jokes here.

Look, don't call me a basher, hater, etc. I love BMW M and have owned many. I'd probably even have the M5 near the top of my list if I wanted to sheel out that kind of green. I simply have some legitimate gripes with some of their product direction.
Active sound is no simulation or faking. It's merely PIPING in the natural sound that's all.
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      10-28-2011, 11:21 AM   #145
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I need it!!!
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      10-28-2011, 11:36 AM   #146
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I am desperate for this car immediately. What else is there that I can say?
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      10-28-2011, 11:53 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Sarcasm? There is lag, it has been reported in tests.....
I disagree, turbo lag is the biggest culprit in a lack of throttle response. It causes poor throttle response.
You make vague references to "tests" that report turbo lag and how its such huge culprit to throttle response. I'm sure these aren't the "reports" you are referring to with regards to this problematic lag, lol:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Automobile View Post
The 1M coupe's straight six can twist out (369 lb-ft) practically anywhere in the rev range, all of which hits the rear axle like a turbocharged slap on the ass. The 1M coupe is slightly quicker(than the M3) in a straight line, and its silken six is remarkably lag free -- for a turbocharged engine.....it's true that it's not really an M engine. No, we don't care. Nor should you. It's too good to fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auto Motor und Sport(German) View Post
...0-62 mph is done in 4.7 seconds which is not only 2 tenths of a second less than BMW's claim but also on par with the way more powerful M3. Even more impressive is its flexibility. The 1-series M Coupé needs only 6.5 seconds to accelerate from 50 mph to 75 mph in 6th gear whereas our last M3 test car clocked 7.9 seconds."

"It pulls strong in every gear, accompanied by an 'angry' exhaust note. Typical BMW: Despite being turbocharged, the engine doesn't run out of steam but pulls strong all the way up to 7,000 rpm. Typical M: Cornering is just as much fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMMERPOST-Jason and Donnie Isley View Post
Torque torque and more torque! The 1M pulls hard throughout the rev range and in all gears, making the car great for daily driving conditions and arguably better as a daily driver (at least from a torque perspective)....Its wide torque band means not having to always watch what gear you're in for good acceleration. The downside, if any, is that the N54 in the 1M isn't as rev happy as the free revving M3 S65 engine and doesn't sound nearly as good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAR Enthusiasts(UK) View Post
.... it's absolutely rapid, with the sort of propulsive savagery that even an M3 can't match. On the track the bigger car's V8 might just have the edge (the M3 is, officially 0.1 seconds quicker to 62mph), but everywhere else, the brute pick-up of this twin-turbo engine has it pummelled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Harris-EVO Magazine View Post
...The car doesn't suffer from turbo lag and doesn't get much more fun. For the money, it has to be one of the best fun cars you can buy.....Does it feel like an M engine? No it doesn't, but it provides massive usable everyday performance. This car in the real world is as quick, if not quicker, than the E92 M3. An absolutely cracking car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fifth Gear View Post
... the twin-turbocharged inline six replaces the M3Â’s eight-cylinder howling gusto with the kind of punchy, inexhaustibly responsive torque band that makes the M Coupe feel tremendously quick between, and through corners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motor Trend View Post
Forward thrust arrives like a sucker punch. The 332 pound-feet of peak torque arrives at 1500 rpm, but an "Overboost" function ups that figure to 370 when you snap the throttle. The result is an exceptionally potent powerband that returns phenomenal top-gear acceleration...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Hammond View Post
...This is a seriously fast car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Marriage-Top Gear View Post
....revving like it's naturally aspirated. Nothing with a turbo I can think of has ever been this snappy, this focused and eager. It's bloody brilliant!
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      10-28-2011, 01:09 PM   #148
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      10-28-2011, 01:14 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m balla View Post
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_u...?v=2Zace5WLgg8

So the F10 550i can take an M3 on street but not on track? Then the M5 is a beast for sure... After listening to the clip of the F80 mule the exhaust sounds similar to the M5... So the engine just may be two cylinders cut from the tü and imagine this - a baby 650i m-sport coupe ///M ified - M4 could be badass just hope it's not as bloated and heavy as the mule looks
It can take the convert. M3 based upon the videos that I have seen.
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      10-28-2011, 01:21 PM   #150
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So, why is the 0-60 (no rollout) 3.7 sec. and the 5 mph roll out 4.6 sec? This is interesting and tells me that the launch control is superb.
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      10-28-2011, 03:39 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Justin Spelman View Post
Holy sh*t! For another comparison, the fastest CTS-V tested did 12.2 @ 119.
I just ordered a 2012 CTS-V Coupe to give BMW a year or so to work out new model bugs. On paper they should be about the same 0-60 and quarter mile. I expect transmission and gearing are the difference, since the M is crazy fast. Very impressive BMW!!!!!!.....Steve
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      10-28-2011, 06:30 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clar View Post
Active sound is no simulation or faking. It's merely PIPING in the natural sound that's all.
I may not have all of the subtleties correct, however neither do you. It is not "piping" it in in any traditional sense. The audio is being created by the cars stereo system, amplified and through the speakers. No matter how you slice it, based on the cars actual engine or exhaust acoustics or not, this is FAKE, FAKE, FAKE.
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      10-28-2011, 06:35 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you View Post
You make vague references to "tests" that report turbo lag and how its such huge culprit to throttle response. I'm sure these aren't the "reports" you are referring to with regards to this problematic lag, lol:
I am taking about the M5 here. Directly quote from Automobile Magazines M5 test,

Quote:
The biggest disappointment with the M5 is turbo lag. Yeah, yeah, how typical that I'm complaining about a turbocharged M5. Actually, I'm not complaining about the fact that the M5 wears turbos: I'm complaining that the S63TU engine has so much more lag than the non-Valvetronic S63 did. In that silly X6M (and the slightly less silly X5M), the turbos were among the most responsive I've ever experienced. Not so in the M5 - the lag is significant enough that you have to drive around it. And it seems that M's engineers aren't fully using their arsenal of tools (Valvetronic, Double VANOS, direct injection) to mitigate lag. Case in point, drive at highway speeds, and the transmission is in seventh gear. Floor the throttle and you get a fairly quick downshift into third: revs in the top half of the tach, all is well. The problem is that there's no boost, so you get a clutch engagement, followed by no power for a second, followed by massive thrust. Boost should have been built by the time the downshift was done. VW does it and has been doing so for years. What gives?
Most of your other quotes are entirely irrelevant and just talk about the 1M being fast, which it is. However in the very first quote:

Quote:
remarkably lag free -- for a turbocharged engine
Just like I was saying the 335i and 1M do a good job at reducing lag but they do not eliminate it. It seems to be even worse with the M5.
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      10-28-2011, 06:58 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I am taking about the M5 here. Directly quote from Automobile Magazines M5 test,
Your initial response and "disagreement" was directed squarely at my real life experience, going from a NA S65 to the TT 1M. Since no one here(have you?) has actually driven the new M5 I thought I would share my opinion on the matter.(NA vs TT)
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