Time to Rebuild or Move On??

[Blaxwil]

Hello Forum. My M5 and I are at a major crossroad and I’m asking my forum brethren for some advice. It’s a Imperial Blue 2014 model with every option except night vision, ceramic brakes and the rear entertainment screens. The interior is full merino Amaro n Brown leather and I purchased it in December of 2016 with roughly 20K miles on it from a 1 owner Doctor out of Phoenix Arizona. The car checked every box for me and was not tracked or tuned and came with all the service records including a detailed history of the break-in period.


For the first 2 years, the only mods were a front splitter and a set of HRE 300’s or classics (can’t really see the difference in the two). Also, during these first 2 years, I religiously changed the oil every 5k miles using BMW 0W-30 oil and DCT Fluid changes once a year. After the 2nd year the car was sitting at about 60,000 miles, I decided to put a tune on her and went with a stage 1 BPM tune. I dropped the oil change intervals to 3500 miles and continued drive daily. Spark plugs were replaced every 25-30k miles after the tune. I later added a Eisenmann full race exhaust with mid-pipes and exhaust meister to open and close the flaps remotely, but kept the stock downpipes.



The following year is when I began to transform the car into something different and more exciting. On the 3rd year of ownership (2019), she went through a full make-over. Mike Benvo built a stage 2 tune for catless downpipes and full after market exhaust. I went with a full Eisenmann Exhaust system with Race Mufflers and Fabworks Catless Downpipes. The wheels I ended up going with were a set of 21 inch BC-Forged HCS21’s, brushed gold with a polished lip (21 x 9.5 and 21 x 11). Wrapped in Michelin PS4S 275/30/21 front and 325/25/21 (later moved down to 305/25/21). For the suspension I went with KWV4 coilovers and lowered the car to the perfect height just above the rubber. The car also received the very best PSM Carbon fiber side skirts, rear spoiler and rear diffuser. The front splitter was damaged early and I just went back with a basic one. I continued to perform oil changes every 3500 miles and even with all the mods listed above, my biggest repair bill was when I needed rotors and pads.


So here’s where I need your help….

Last year, the check engine light would come on and go off intermittently. Also, during that time, I began to see some blueish smoke coming out of the exhaust every so often. When I was able to catch the code, it came back as a crankcase ventilation issue and fuel mixture too rich. We changed out the PCV hoses but that didn’t stop the smoke. One day the check engine light went off and it passed emissions. The very next day, the check engine light came back on and never went off. Fast forward to today… The smoke began to occur almost all the time. I took the car in and found it was misfiring and needed plugs and coils. This was despite changing out both about 10,000 miles ago. The shop then found the driver’s side turbo to be completely shot and it needed a valve cover gasket job. We thought the turbo or the valve cover could be the reason for the smoke so both were replaced. The fuel is still too rich and now the shop believes the piston seals could be compromised causing oil to seep into the combustion chamber. I own the car outright but my goal was to holdout for a 2016 ish 911 turbo S in a few years. Should I invest in tearing the motor down to find the root cause, rebuild a forged motor or move on to something else?

I also forgot to mention, she’s sitting on roughly 185K miles. Rebuild or move on?

[SCD-1983]

Hi Blaxwil!

I fully understand your thoughts and they are legit. However, just going through months of a forged engine upgrade, and now enjoying my rare frozen blue M5 again, is a priceless experience
I’m on my 3rd F10 M5, my second M5 was imperial blue as well, gorgeous color 🤩
My chassis has 100k miles and by now, I could have gotten a F90 or something else.
But I decided to stick with my 2014 M5, due to its spec and being reliable all the way.
The engine rebuilt was a rather spontaneous decision, it was running great.

In your case and knowing your M5, I would definitely invest and enjoy her once again.
IMHO, it’s a timeless design and plan on keeping her for good!

Please keep us posted, your M5 is stunning!
All the best buddy.

[Blaxwil]

Man. I appreciate your advice. Who did you use for your rebuild and what internals did you go with? Shoot me a PM.

[M5_Raz]

The fuel mixture too rich sounds to me like one or more injectors are on their way out. I would swap them out and see if that fixes it.

As for the smoke and oil burning, have you measured how much it is burning? With catless downpipes visible smoke is considered normal on our engines, I am surprised yours didn't for so long. Most S63TU engines burn oil, at any mileage. As long as you keep checking and filling when needed, everything is fine.

Your car looks amazing, it really isn't worth selling / getting rid of it for the value it will bring. I think the F10 M5 is the best M5 imo, the V8 Twin Turbo has tons of power and a very unique sound, RWD is pure fun, and the DCT transmission sounds and shifts incredibly.

[SCD-1983]

Originally Posted by Blaxwil

Man. I appreciate your advice. Who did you use for your rebuild and what internals did you go with? Shoot me a PM.

Sure, we are car guys and the F10 platform is top notch 💪
I will soon create a full post about my engine build, here are some details upfront:

Engine builder in Germany:
MA Performance, near Frankfurt

Sleeved block with GTR sleeves (up to 1500 hp)
FCP Engineering rods
JE pistons, reduced compression
King rod and main upgrade bearings
Balanced crankshaft
All wear parts replaced
New oil and water pump
TTH950 upgrade turbos (up to 950 hp)
F90 M5 HPFP
SSP Spec-R upgrade clutch
RK Autowerks diff brace
Eventuri intake system
BMS upgrade charge coolers
200 cells Downpipes
New injectors/gapped plugs/coils

Software:
BM3, no stage yet due to break-in phase
XHP for DCT

Engine oil:
currently Ravenol RUP 5w40
after break-in: Motul 300v 5w50

I have more than a hundred pics 🤐
Attached are a pic of the sleeved block and the engine bay 😁

[MarcF10]

Originally Posted by Blaxwil

Hello Forum. My M5 and I are at a major crossroad and I’m asking my forum brethren for some advice...she’s sitting on roughly 185K miles. Rebuild or move on?

Hi buddy. Great read, thoroughly enjoyed it. I really admired your journey thus far, obviously having some exciting times driving this beauty. I can't blame you for seeking advice. It's clear that your engine is now approaching the end of its life, and problems are cropping up after the modifications strained the already worn components. In my opinion, it's just regular wear and tear. When you notice blue smoke, it's usually due to piston rings. Keep in mind that some folks in this forum have already rebuilt their engines at 60k miles or even less.

I might sound a bit controversial, but if you're willing to invest 15-20k in a thorough rebuild, including all the "right" components (even if you're not aiming for more horsepower, go for forged parts), then by all means, keep the car as long as you still enjoy it. However, if dropping 15-20k on this car at this stage feels like a hefty sum, it might be time to move on. Considering a Porsche is somewhat akin to experiencing a mid-life crisis, you know. You've spent your prime years with an amazing spouse who checked all the boxes, raised your kids, had great times, and was always classy, but one day, you're at the mall with the kids, and an attractive lady sends a shiver down your spine, lingering in your thoughts, making you wonder, "What if..."

You don't have anything to prove. Sometimes, coming full circle with things brings a sense of nostalgia or regret, but that's just life, I suppose. Unless you can afford to keep both cars? If you can, then you've got your answer! If not, perhaps it's worth exploring the other side of the fence, hoping the grass is greener.

Best of luck, my friend! Wishing you all the best!

[M5Rick]

I'd just rebuild without the forged parts, replace the worn components and save a pile of handy bucks as won't be keeping it forever.

[Blaxwil]

Thank you SCD-1983 M5_Raz MarcF10 M5Rick for the comments and suggestions.

A lot to digest in order to make a good decision at this point. I believe you all have valid opinions on what the next step should be. Either way, I’ll be rebuilding the engine. Whether it be stock or forged, I think that’s the best way to go considering all I’ve put into the car thus far.

In the next few weeks, I’ll be making a decision on what shop will do the rebuild.

Again, thanks for the advice and feedback.

[SCD-1983]

Originally Posted by Blaxwil

Thank you SCD-1983 M5_Raz MarcF10 M5Rick for the comments and suggestions.

A lot to digest in order to make a good decision at this point. I believe you all have valid opinions on what the next step should be. Either way, I’ll be rebuilding the engine. Whether it be stock or forged, I think that’s the best way to go considering all I’ve put into the car thus far.

In the next few weeks, I’ll be making a decision on what shop will do the rebuild.

Again, thanks for the advice and feedback.

Excellent decision, a rebuild is the way to go. And it doesn’t matter if you go for a stock rebuild or all in forged build. I’m just happy to hear that you will keep this beautiful M5 and get her taken care of!!!
If you ever have any questions regarding the S63, please don’t hesitate to contact me 💪
I wish you best of luck finding a reputable shop and please keep us posted!

[m5rosco]

The "forged" parts only account for about 20% of the costs, so in my opinion it's rude not to! Even if not chasing silly power, forging ensures peace of mind and reliability, ensuring no more worries, and even if you sold the car in the not so distant future, would be a good selling point.

[TinCanSailor]

Originally Posted by SCD-1983

Sure, we are car guys and the F10 platform is top notch 💪
I will soon create a full post about my engine build, here are some details upfront:

Engine builder in Germany:
MA Performance, near Frankfurt

Sleeved block with GTR sleeves (up to 1500 hp)
FCP Engineering rods
JE pistons, reduced compression
King rod and main upgrade bearings
Balanced crankshaft
All wear parts replaced
New oil and water pump
TTH950 upgrade turbos (up to 950 hp)
F90 M5 HPFP
SSP Spec-R upgrade clutch
RK Autowerks diff brace
Eventuri intake system
BMS upgrade charge coolers
200 cells Downpipes
New injectors/gapped plugs/coils

Software:
BM3, no stage yet due to break-in phase
XHP for DCT

Engine oil:
currently Ravenol RUP 5w40
after break-in: Motul 300v 5w50

I have more than a hundred pics 🤐
Attached are a pic of the sleeved block and the engine bay 😁

Properly done! Looks great.

I am on my 3rd engine with my F06 M6 and I was either going to send her to a disassembler/scrapper or rebuild. I erred for the long term as the car as she stands is ageless in design and I honestly should have done a forged build on my after the first engine but allowed myself to get in a bit of a rush and took the stock rebuild that was on the shelf ready. I am barely over 100k miles right now but the car as she sits is in great physical condition and I get regular compliments. I think the F1x is on track to become a future classic and those that decide to hold will be reward for their decision with years of fun driving and lots of compliments on the curb appeal.

[TinCanSailor]

If you haven't spoke with Sales@RKautowerks yet about the rebuild it is well worth the call. I have had a great experience with them on my stock rebuild, yes I destroyed that one but I fully accept responsibility for it, and I now have a forged engine as I do like playing with the mystical forces of power adders.

You could send your car to them and get a stock rebuild of your engine, for number matching purposes, but they will work with you on adding things like forged rods and upgraded bearings. I am not building a power car and they told me that if I am not looking for high HP I could get away with just rods and bearings.

[TinCanSailor]

Originally Posted by Blaxwil

Hello Forum. My M5 and I are at a major crossroad and I’m asking my forum brethren for some advice. It’s a Imperial Blue 2014 model with every option except night vision, ceramic brakes and the rear entertainment screens. The interior is full merino Amaro n Brown leather and I purchased it in December of 2016 with roughly 20K miles on it from a 1 owner Doctor out of Phoenix Arizona. The car checked every box for me and was not tracked or tuned and came with all the service records including a detailed history of the break-in period.


For the first 2 years, the only mods were a front splitter and a set of HRE 300’s or classics (can’t really see the difference in the two). Also, during these first 2 years, I religiously changed the oil every 5k miles using BMW 0W-30 oil and DCT Fluid changes once a year. After the 2nd year the car was sitting at about 60,000 miles, I decided to put a tune on her and went with a stage 1 BPM tune. I dropped the oil change intervals to 3500 miles and continued drive daily. Spark plugs were replaced every 25-30k miles after the tune. I later added a Eisenmann full race exhaust with mid-pipes and exhaust meister to open and close the flaps remotely, but kept the stock downpipes.



The following year is when I began to transform the car into something different and more exciting. On the 3rd year of ownership (2019), she went through a full make-over. Mike Benvo built a stage 2 tune for catless downpipes and full after market exhaust. I went with a full Eisenmann Exhaust system with Race Mufflers and Fabworks Catless Downpipes. The wheels I ended up going with were a set of 21 inch BC-Forged HCS21’s, brushed gold with a polished lip (21 x 9.5 and 21 x 11). Wrapped in Michelin PS4S 275/30/21 front and 325/25/21 (later moved down to 305/25/21). For the suspension I went with KWV4 coilovers and lowered the car to the perfect height just above the rubber. The car also received the very best PSM Carbon fiber side skirts, rear spoiler and rear diffuser. The front splitter was damaged early and I just went back with a basic one. I continued to perform oil changes every 3500 miles and even with all the mods listed above, my biggest repair bill was when I needed rotors and pads.


So here’s where I need your help….

Last year, the check engine light would come on and go off intermittently. Also, during that time, I began to see some blueish smoke coming out of the exhaust every so often. When I was able to catch the code, it came back as a crankcase ventilation issue and fuel mixture too rich. We changed out the PCV hoses but that didn’t stop the smoke. One day the check engine light went off and it passed emissions. The very next day, the check engine light came back on and never went off. Fast forward to today… The smoke began to occur almost all the time. I took the car in and found it was misfiring and needed plugs and coils. This was despite changing out both about 10,000 miles ago. The shop then found the driver’s side turbo to be completely shot and it needed a valve cover gasket job. We thought the turbo or the valve cover could be the reason for the smoke so both were replaced. The fuel is still too rich and now the shop believes the piston seals could be compromised causing oil to seep into the combustion chamber. I own the car outright but my goal was to holdout for a 2016 ish 911 turbo S in a few years. Should I invest in tearing the motor down to find the root cause, rebuild a forged motor or move on to something else?

I also forgot to mention, she’s sitting on roughly 185K miles. Rebuild or move on?

A very beautiful car and glad to read that you are going to keep it.

[Jhow257415]

Nice car buddy. I am also another person that voted for a rebuild. As mentioned these are future classics.

[m5dream]

wow man amazing build
that amazing you owned the car since 20k miles from 2016 to 185k
thats very impressive. so ur car is on its original motor at 185k??? please confirm
and you never replaced fuel injectors or o2 sensors for it?

[Blaxwil]

Affirmative. I’ve put 160K miles on it as the 2nd owner.

Never replaced the fuel injectors.
Never replaced the clutch.
Same motor.
O2 sensors were just replaced last week.

I would attribute the longevity to the following:

1: Religiously changing the oil every 3-5k miles. Swapped over to liquid moly 5W/40 at about 60k miles.

2: Proper warming up.

3: Never launched and never WOT in lower gears.

By the way, I’ve decided to go with a forged engine rebuild. Working on the particulars now and will keep everyone updated.

[SCD-1983]

Originally Posted by Blaxwil

Affirmative. I’ve put 160K miles on it as the 2nd owner.

Never replaced the fuel injectors.
Never replaced the clutch.
Same motor.
O2 sensors were just replaced last week.

I would attribute the longevity to the following:

1: Religiously changing the oil every 3-5k miles. Swapped over to liquid moly 5W/40 at about 60k miles.

2: Proper warming up.

3: Never launched and never WOT in lower gears.

By the way, I’ve decided to go with a forged engine rebuild. Working on the particulars now and will keep everyone updated.

Excellent advice for all M owners, these cars are built to last 💪
They are made for rolling starts and then they are total beasts, I would prefer other cars to race from a dig!
Subscribed, I’m ready to hear more about your forged build, will be a reliable monster 👿
Please keep us posted 💪

[MarcF10]

Originally Posted by Blaxwil

Affirmative. I’ve put 160K miles on it as the 2nd owner.

Never replaced the fuel injectors.
Never replaced the clutch.
Same motor.
O2 sensors were just replaced last week.

I would attribute the longevity to the following:

1: Religiously changing the oil every 3-5k miles. Swapped over to liquid moly 5W/40 at about 60k miles.

2: Proper warming up.

3: Never launched and never WOT in lower gears.

By the way, I’ve decided to go with a forged engine rebuild. Working on the particulars now and will keep everyone updated.

you are the man!

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by SCD-1983

Sure, we are car guys and the F10 platform is top notch 💪
I will soon create a full post about my engine build, here are some details upfront:

Engine builder in Germany:
MA Performance, near Frankfurt

Sleeved block with GTR sleeves (up to 1500 hp)
FCP Engineering rods
JE pistons, reduced compression
King rod and main upgrade bearings
Balanced crankshaft
All wear parts replaced
New oil and water pump
TTH950 upgrade turbos (up to 950 hp)
F90 M5 HPFP
SSP Spec-R upgrade clutch
RK Autowerks diff brace
Eventuri intake system
BMS upgrade charge coolers
200 cells Downpipes
New injectors/gapped plugs/coils

Software:
BM3, no stage yet due to break-in phase
XHP for DCT

Engine oil:
currently Ravenol RUP 5w40
after break-in: Motul 300v 5w50

I have more than a hundred pics 🤐
Attached are a pic of the sleeved block and the engine bay 😁

How do these 'King' rod bearings differ from the standard BMW ones.

[SCD-1983]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

How do these 'King' rod bearings differ from the standard BMW ones.

Based on their website and the vast experience of my engine specialist, the following characteristics are provided:

All King Bearings are specifically engineered to withstand the highest loads and RPMs generated by today’s top competition engines. All King Performance Engine Bearings feature:

“Bull’s Eye Tolerance”. King engine bearings have the closest wall tolerances in the industry, with all shells matched to 0.0001".
Increased Height. Greater rod bearing height improves bearing-to-bore contact/heat transfer and reduces spin potential at high RPM.
Improved Oiling. Mains feature enlarged, chamfered oil holes.
Medium Eccentricity. This enables optimum load distribution and improved oiling.
Dowel Holes. Most rod bearings are available with or without dowel holes.
Narrowed Design. Mains and rods are narrowed for large-radius crankshafts.

They are well known, as well as ACL bearings.

[Blaxwil]

So much information to input at this points.

As it stands today, my goal is to look at a few options before I fully commit to the type of build I want. Those options are:

#1 Stock Build w/ stock internals. Keep it simple and go back to downpipes and a stage 2 tune.

#2 Stock Build w/ some upgraded internals such as KING/ACL bearings for longevity and peace of mind. Downpipes and a stage 2 tune.

#3 Fully Forged with stock turbos, downpipes and a stage 2 tune. Stay with stock clutches and keep power below 725hp.

#4 Fully Forged with stage 1/2 turbos, upgraded clutches and the ability to build beyond 750hp. Then will have to make another decision on SSP or Deka. Both have issues reported.

[SCD-1983]

Originally Posted by Blaxwil

So much information to input at this points.

As it stands today, my goal is to look at a few options before I fully commit to the type of build I want. Those options are:

#1 Stock Build w/ stock internals. Keep it simple and go back to downpipes and a stage 2 tune.

#2 Stock Build w/ some upgraded internals such as KING/ACL bearings for longevity and peace of mind. Downpipes and a stage 2 tune.

#3 Fully Forged with stock turbos, downpipes and a stage 2 tune. Stay with stock clutches and keep power below 725hp.

#4 Fully Forged with stage 1/2 turbos, upgraded clutches and the ability to build beyond 750hp. Then will have to make another decision on SSP or Deka. Both have issues reported.

Great summary of the potential options.
I originally went with option #2 and enjoyed the reliable power.
Then I was able to drive a F13 M6 with a sleeved and forged S63, it was an incredible experience and I finally pulled the trigger for option #4.
It’s neither reasonable nor justifiable, it’s purely a personal preference and all about being a power nut 😁
By the way, I’m very happy with my SSP Spec-R so far, but the engine is still in the break in period. Once massive levels of power are released, I will report back.

Happy motoring buddy!