An Interesting and relevant thread

[JOHNBMWM5]

For UK drivers anyway of the "Potent M5".

http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/new-c...h-power-enough

[Palmnuts]

This is very relevant John and quite timely to my thoughts on my M6.

It is a fabulous and outrageously capable car - in almost every objective measure, the best I've had. But it's not the most fun, simply because for the use it gets here in the UK (even if you happen to considerably breach the speed limit ), the car is operating at such low level of its capability that it's quite unremarkable. I'm sure that if one was to try 100mph+ on a B road (for our foreign friends that's normally a little bendy road) the car would be soaking it all in, fully at ease and gauging very little sensation on just how hard it's working. BMW have literally engineered out every imperfection levelled at its predecessors and in one go, almost made it too good.

Now, I have had the pleasure of driving my car on the continent where rules for us UK drivers are somewhat more relaxed - in most countries we just risk a fine rather than losing our licence, and in Germany....well, we all know what happens there! And the car simply comes alive at higher speeds, on better surfaced roads and where there's a lot more space.

I had similar issue with my previous 997.2 turbo - limited real world satisfaction given it was hugely fast (although I do seriously believe the M6 has the edge on it once on a roll which us frankly remarkable given the luxury and weight of the big-M!). That was worse though as the 4WD raised the limits even further. The reality is, whilst i love my M6 for the big, refined, luxurious yet exceedingly fast GT that it is, I've had more fun in cars that are ultimately less powerful (M3 stands out here) or similar in concept the M6 but less ultimately capable/perfect (Jaguar XKR-S comes to mind, which was particularly effective on our broken roads, as it should be given it's a British-engineered car).

I'm sure this opinion will cause shudders and instigate flaming from others who are blinded by the brilliance of their big-M's, but that's my thoughts on this.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by Palmnuts

This is very relevant John and quite timely to my thoughts on my M6.

It is a fabulous and outrageously capable car - in almost every objective measure, the best I've had. But it's not the most fun, simply because for the use it gets here in the UK (even if you happen to considerably breach the speed limit ), the car is operating at such low level of its capability that it's quite unremarkable. I'm sure that if one was to try 100mph+ on a B road (for our foreign friends that's normally a little bendy road) the car would be soaking it all in, fully at ease and gauging very little sensation on just how hard it's working. BMW have literally engineered out every imperfection levelled at its predecessors and in one go, almost made it too good.

Now, I have had the pleasure of driving my car on the continent where rules for us UK drivers are somewhat more relaxed - in most countries we just risk a fine rather than losing our licence, and in Germany....well, we all know what happens there! And the car simply comes alive at higher speeds, on better surfaced roads and where there's a lot more space.

I had similar issue with my previous 997.2 turbo - limited real world satisfaction given it was hugely fast (although I do seriously believe the M6 has the edge on it once on a roll which us frankly remarkable given the luxury and weight of the big-M!). That was worse though as the 4WD raised the limits even further. The reality is, whilst i love my M6 for the big, refined, luxurious yet exceedingly fast GT that it is, I've had more fun in cars that are ultimately less powerful (M3 stands out here) or similar in concept the M6 but less ultimately capable/perfect (Jaguar XKR-S comes to mind, which was particularly effective on our broken roads, as it should be given it's a British-engineered car).

I'm sure this opinion will cause shudders and instigate flaming from others who are blinded by the brilliance of their big-M's, but that's my thoughts on this.

I have a similar view to yours Andrew, the M5/6 here in the UK are to all intents and purposes "Over powered" and can only be exploited here in the first 3 gears on dry empty roads with eyes front and behind

I am enjoying the car don't get me wrong, even in mid-range overtakes the car is epic , but I had more fun in my "less powerful" E90 M3 for sure.

[RPiM5]

Dude, I think about this A LOT!

The F10 M5 or F13 M6 today definitely makes too much power for the street. It really all depends on where you live with such machines though. Back in California it makes the most sense to own high powered cars, or South Africa, or Germany. In some places around the world, the laws and law enforcement are more lax and they have the infrastructure/roads to accommodate these cars full potential of acceleration, max speed, and handling. Other places like Texas have the space to enjoy the acceleration and max speed, but not the handling, there's no mountains in Texas and hardly any racetracks. This is all stuff no driver is supposed to be doing on public roads anyways, but you own 560hp, you paid for 560hp, you want to use it, and you don't have access to a racetrack 24/7, what are you supposed to do? Not enjoy your car that you paid for? Lol! Like that dude back in Eastern European nation of Georgia who drifted his E34 M5 over almost every public road in the whole damned country and people shamed him/loved him for it. This is a very controversial, sensitive, and troublesome topic for anyone who loves cars or for even those that don't. Safety is always the concern yet people die every day in car crashes from texting or whatever.

I'm still trying to decide if the (now) rare acceleration up to 7,200rpm on the highway on-ramp with full straightpipes is worth the high ownership costs to me. To others it might be worth it, but everyone is different. I'm starting to wonder if owning a slower and lower horsepower but more exotic car makes more sense in areas of the world where it's simply not possible to exploit their full potential due to heavy traffic and/or law enforcement. Say a Ferrari F430 to a F13 M6, or an Audi R8 4.2L to an F10 M5, or Aston Martin Vantage V8 to a 2014 Mercedes E63 AMG-S. I'm speaking as a single guy with no kids though. For a family oriented person, the 2014 E63 AMG-S Wagon makes a lot more sense than a 2006 Lambo Gallardo, even if you live in a bad traffic area or an area with no racetracks or no mountain roads around you. Is there some horsepower threshold where anything above that in a heavy traffic city just makes no sense because you simply can't use it? Is it worth it to own anything higher than a BMW 435i when you're stuck in bumper to bumper traffic every time you try to get to the Target across town? I dunno. Since I've moved to an area with a stupid amount of traffic, I've found that my secondary car helps keep my sanity. My tuned Fiat Abarth which makes about 200hp is far more satisfying than my F10 M5 in trafficky conditions. I can use the full potential of the Fiat nearly 100% of the time that I drive it. That's what makes it so much fun. But, in some ways I think it's sad to have to own a secondary car just to enjoy driving. With the F10 M5, if I drive it in traffic, I feel like I'm driving an extremely nicely equipped 528i, which I don't like. Like many of us here, I am a driver, I love driving. I've had many people that I know which live on the East Coast, including family members of mine tell me to just take the train when I tell them I'm going up to NYC for the weekend. They don't understand that I LOVE driving. I love revving the engine out on the highway from time to time and taking onramp/offramps a faster speeds. It's like in the article when he said: "But when the moment does come, it’s magnificent." And it really is, but is it worth it? That is for each of us to decide. Back when I lived in automobile paradise, I wondered if I would even bother with owning a high horsepower/performing car if I lived anywhere else. Now I'm in that situation and I'm starting to struggle with that thought. I haven't even mentioned the weather either. Lol! lately, I've been wondering about owning such a high performance car when you only drive it occasionally, and drive it to it's max potential on even more rare occasions. Since many of us love driving, would it be better just to save the money and go participate in the BMW ///M Performance Driving School once a month, or even go through a professional racing school and get your racing license, which all equate to the high costs of an ///M car anyway? You know since were not supposed to be driving fast in high performance cars on public roads anyways. Afterall, that's how some pro Formula 1 Car drivers did it, they owned junkers and spent all of their money on racing before they made it big. I guess the real question is why do we want to own these cars, when most of the time it's not legal or physically possible to drive them the way they were designed to be driven? It's almost like buying a boat when you never take it out on the water.

Ok, rant over. Just feeling frustrated with all of this bad weather we've been having. Maybe it's time for a new hobby. Lol!

[MichaelJohn]

You said it in one sentence - when that moment comes, it's magnificent. Unless you have over-extended yourself financially, it's definitely worth it. Those moments just don't happen in lesser cars.

[Lual]

Doest it make sense to have under your right foot 575 hp? No, not at all unless you track it regularly and your skills are at a high levels.

It has probably 200 hp too much for a civilised country like Switzerland, where the fines are paid in some cases proportionally to your wealth, and most of inhabitants behave as police officials.

I miss a bit the feeling of other cars when you rev up. Surely because the excessive torque, that obliges you to break when you are reaching only 3.500 in open roads.

Would I buy this car again? Yes, no doubt. Because of the feeling, the sound, the image, the power and because is one of the few super sport cars where you can put a wife and up to 3 kids. And because the german Autobahn is up there...

[RPiM5]

I'm also starting wonder if the BMW i8 isn't such a bad idea. Now if all the production slots weren't sold already. Hmmm... Lol!

[skrambles297]

I'm glad that it's not just me having such thoughts!

I also love driving, to a ridiculous extent, but it is often a very frustrating experience in a car like the f10 m5 because I feel like I spend most of the time (whether in traffic, open country roads or on the motorway) feathering the loud pedal. Either there's too much traffic, or speed cameras, or unmarked cop cars floating around, or sneaky speed detector cars/vans, so that I don't get the opportunity to take the car into the rev range where it really comes alive. I love the refinement of the m5, but this is also its disadvantage in south east England.

I don't want to stick the car in the garage and use another simpler car on a daily basis: the m5 is special but it is not sufficiently special (in my view) for that sort of treatment. With this sort of car, I now believe in the wisdom of the expression "use it or lose it". With my e60, I had a similar issue and, for quite a while, I took the train to work instead of driving it because it didn't feel special enough to just potter around in: soon, I realised that I simply wasn't using the car enough and so used it for the commute as well as other stuff. But, again, it had to be given a bootful to come alive and that wasn't really possible on UK roads.

I am currently wondering whether something as simple as changing the exhaust on the m5 would make it more satisfying/less frustrating for general use, or whether it's time to start the search for something more exciting or visceral: m4? r8 v10? Jag F type R? 911 gt3?

[shahano]

Guys I feel your frustration, but trust me that when the moment comes with beautiful sunshine, empty roads, twisties, and you gun it, you forget of all those frustrations and just remember how amazing it is to own the F10 M5. You should all come visit Lebanon. All kinds of mountain twisty roads, with no cops and no speeding tickets or anything of the sort. Yes of course we have some instability in the country, but everything gets forgotten once you get into the car and just start driving.

[mdm0515]

For someone who travels a ton, and therefore drives little but LOVES to drive, it's just nice to know the beast is sitting in the garage and waiting for me. Due to work schedules I can go two or three weeks without driving it at all but, happily, I can get out of traffic and into the fun with little effort and time investment because of where I live. If I lived in DC, NY or similar urban location I know I'd be too frustrated and would definitely not have the F10 for my daily driver. It's hard enough to endure my semi-regular trips on I-95 through the DC/Balto corridor several times a year. I can't imagine living that every day. I'm personally happy to just wait for the special moments. Having bought the car outright I really have no running cost concerns to weigh on my mind. That said, I certainly won't keep the car off warranty.

[6spdterror]

My take on it is similar to most of you guys. I LOVE DRIVING. I dont look at cars as a point A to point B aparatus. I have to like it if im going to drive it. Being a sales manager for a dealership gives me access to drive all kinds of cars and its a dream career for a gearhead like myself. That being said, you cant have an M5 as your only car living in NYC. My AWD Acura TL only has 305 HP but i drive it at its max almost everytime i drive it and it doesnt garner any extra attention from the cops, still gives relative great gas mileage (at least compared to the M5!), is as reliable as old faithful and with a 6 speed manual tranny is as fun to drive as any. I always turn off traction control in it and i can act like a hooligan regardless of weather conditions. So one might ask...."why own 100k+, 560 HP, RWD impractical beast?!?" Because you cant put a price on the euphoric feeling you get when you do drive it. Its annoying to have to check the forecast everyday to decide which car youre going to drive but when i do drive my M5 and get to stretch the legs a little, im like a kid in toys r us for the first time all over again! I know im preaching to the choir here since we all own the same car but even when i walk up to my car just looking at it standing still makes me smile, it never gets old.
On another note, i took my wife to the beautiful island of St Lucia a couple months back for vacay. I met the only F10 M5 owner on the island (yes theres only one in that whole island nation!) Very nice guy that owned a couple businesses and he couldnt stop ranting how he loves to drive his M5 all the time because its always great weather, crime rate is so low that you never even see the cops and if u do get pulled over by one, nothing a quick "donation" wont fix! I explained to him my troubles in NYC and he says "i would never live there!"
All in all, life is way too short and we all should be thankful we can afford to enjoy such an amazing machine.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by 6spdterror

All in all, life is way too short and we all should be thankful we can afford to enjoy such an amazing machine.

Well said, I drove mine today and really enjoyed it.

[6spdterror]

Originally Posted by johnbmw6

Well said, I drove mine today and really enjoyed it.

Same here!! The weather in NYC is shitty as usual but i still drove it!

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by 6spdterror

Same here!! The weather in NYC is shitty as usual but i still drove it!

Weather in DC is really shitty today. Too much ice on the roads today, I did not drive mine. Stupid frozen liquid water!

[shahano]

Originally Posted by johnbmw6

Well said, I drove mine today and really enjoyed it.

Agreed.

[RPiM5]

Is it bad that I wish I could do this everyday in my F10 M5? Lol! No, just kidding. But really I wish I could, but no just kidding.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9a3_1382188356

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by johnbmw6

the M5/6 here in the UK are to all intents and purposes "Over powered" and can only be exploited here in the first 3 gears on dry empty roads with eyes front and behind

I am enjoying the car don't get me wrong, even in mid-range overtakes the car is epic , but I had more fun in my "less powerful" E90 M3 for sure.

As you have no doubt gathered from my previous posts I'm at the extreme end of the scale in terms of underutilising the performance on offer. I prefer to stay within speed limits but corner hard and, in that respect, find that the M5 doesn't inspire extreme confidence. I was more confident throwing the E70 around, even if it was much less capable. The M5 is too refined to feel fast, but then that is some of it's appeal if you use it as a DD; it still has drama and I look forward to driving it more so that the 535d it replaced (in real life use in UK, just as effortless as the M5 and I'd image your 550i was the same). All these cars are somewhat aloof.

Originally Posted by Palmnuts

I had similar issue with my previous 997.2 turbo - limited real world satisfaction given it was hugely fast. That was worse though as the 4WD raised the limits even further.

I was toying with a Porsche keeper alongside the M5, perhaps 991 GT3, but posts such as this are making me concerned that the performance may go to waste, even if the handling does not. Starting to feel that I may be disappointed, even with 981 Cayman S - I know both of these would turn into 'garage queens'. A Mini Cooper S would probably turn out to be more fun and a lot more useable (I never use the M5 for local runs & GT3/Cayman S would go the same way).

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Is it worth it to own anything higher than a BMW 435i when you're stuck in bumper to bumper traffic every time you try to get to the Target across town? With the F10 M5, if I drive it in traffic, I feel like I'm driving an extremely nicely equipped 528i, which I don't like.

The problem is that many of us trading the M5 for a 435i would lament the M5. Last time I participated in an online forum was when I had my e46 M3 - I had similar thoughts then (too fast for road use - and back then UK wasn't as restricted as it is now). Sold it (followed by short stint in E60 530i SE auto, then almost 2 years in E46 330i M Sport manual, so similar to what you suggest), but was warned by the forum members that I would yearn for a performance car and, to be honest, that warning held true, albeit I managed to be 'sensible' for almost 10 years. M5 may feel like a 528i in traffic, but for some of us the likes of GT3 could become tiresome as a DD after having experienced the luxury of the M5. Only way I see p-car working for me is alongside M5. I don't doubt how enjoyable the Abarth is, but there must be times when you wish you were driving the M5 instead. My question would be, how often is that feeling reversed?

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

The problem is that many of us trading the M5 for a 435i would lament the M5. Last time I participated in an online forum was when I had my e46 M3 - I had similar thoughts then (too fast for road use - and back then UK wasn't as restricted as it is now). Sold it (followed by short stint in E60 530i SE auto, then almost 2 years in E46 330i M Sport manual, so similar to what you suggest), but was warned by the forum members that I would yearn for a performance car and, to be honest, that warning held true, albeit I managed to be 'sensible' for almost 10 years. M5 may feel like a 528i in traffic, but for some of us the likes of GT3 could become tiresome as a DD after having experienced the luxury of the M5. I don't doubt how enjoyable the Abarth is, but there must be times when you wish you were driving the M5 instead. My question would be, how often is that feeling reversed?

There's 3 things I really LOVE about driving the F10 M5 in heavy traffic. #1 DCT. #2 Bang&Olufsen #3 Smell of my Full Leather cabin.

What I don't like, which is what I was talking about before, is the 600+hp under my right foot that I can't use, and I can't hear my straightpipes at full song at only 1,200rpm.

It's just not worth it to me to drive it in heavy traffic a lot when it's all rainy and snowy out on the roads.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

What I don't like, which is what I was talking about before, is the 600+hp under my right foot that I can't use, and I can't hear my straightpipes at full song at only 1,200rpm.

Apologies, didn't phrase my post very well (more haste, less speed needed on my behalf) - what I meant was that although M5 can feel like a waste whilst in the in heavy traffic, for me the anticipation of full throttle blast (and I'd image an aftermarket exhaust would increase that effect) once the traffic clears makes the M5 feel less of a waste (obviously I haven't yet got caught in traffic often enough for that feeling to turn into frustration), whereas 435i, etc. wouldn't provide the same feeling (never did for me in the 330i, etc.).

Abarth question was in terms of, if choosing something similar as 'sporty car' (agreed would feel less of a waste in traffic), assuming the traffic does actually clear, do you ever wish you were in the M5 instead (I often get that feeling in our not sporty other cars, not sure if a sporty car like the Abarth would be the same, i.e. is it worth it)?

[skrambles297]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

Only way I see p-car working for me is alongside M5.

The Porsche does work well alongside the m5 (with the m5 as the DD) - keeps the 911 feeling special for weekends / Germany trips etc.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Is it bad that I wish I could do this everyday in my F10 M5? Lol! No, just kidding. But really I wish I could, but no just kidding.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9a3_1382188356

That is so insane on multiple levels (the driving in the video….)

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by skrambles297

The Porsche does work well alongside the m5 (with the m5 as the DD) - keeps the 911 feeling special for weekends / Germany trips etc.

That's sort of where my head is, however, if I had an 911 for occasional use, and a sensible car (say 520d) as DD, I believe I'd get more frustrated driving the 520d at all times (traffic or not) then driving an M5 and occasionally getting caught in traffic (obviously, if I was caught in traffic all the time, I might not think the same). IMHO, M5 isn't special enough to use as occasional car (having said that I park mine up for weeks at a time, but it is still my DD).

M5 works great for me as DD and I don't regret buying it. What I still feel I'm missing is a true sports car, but just couldn't use a 991, 981, even Mini Cooper as long distance car. Too many currupting 'dual nationality' threads on this forum.

That's my answer to Autocar's 'how much power is enough question' (560hp is fine in UK as long as it's used with discretion).

I would question the traction limitations more than the power in this car.

Clearly in my case power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely!