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      04-20-2014, 08:42 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I'm not "above it all" at all

Neither have I ever said so, quite the contrary. In your last rant against me as a European I acknowledged the fact that Europe would not have been what it is today without the Marshall aid plan after WWII. Or as a very important ally during WWII, the cold war and today. To me the US is a favourite holiday destination. I have US family living close by me over here (one of them is actually having dinner at our house now). We visit our US family frequently and will celebrate 4th of July with them this summer. I have several active duty military family members in the US, including a Navy Seal. I have great respect for the US and my country has very close military and political ties with the US My country's constitution (which is 200 years this year, making it the second oldest democratic constitution in the world that is still in place in it's original form) is based on the US and French constitutions, indicating what major impact the US had on Europe as well.

But you obviously must have a grudge against us Europeans, since a simple comment about "marque vs marquee" makes you insult me as a European and everything else European... THAT is amusing

If you feel the US is "above Europe" (based on your "quite the contrary" comment). Good for you In many, many areas, the US is above/better than Europe
OK. you are sucking the positive energy out of me here.

Let's get serious, and get back to basics here. YOU decided to respond to my original post to do NOTHING more than point out a simple spelling error, and now you want to make an argument for why I am acting like the jerk?

Look in the mirror, and just accept the fact that I have made my own opinion of you (after reading several of your posts), and I am convinced you are a condescending person. I simply have no patience for it as I don't think I am better than anyone else, even you. Thanks and back to wheel spin now, ok!
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      04-20-2014, 08:48 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ColdList View Post
Funny how you got attacked. Fact of the matter is that you are CORRECT. It is wildly out of control when you try to put the power down. All of these "super drivers" claiming to have such skill to control the car and advising that you attend driving school, etc. are experiencing EXACTLY what you are. I have had an F10 M5 and currently am F12 M6 cab and pretty much every time I drive the M6 I get the same feeling. People "adapt" to what they drive and learn to overlook the flaws. Many will argue until they are blue in the face to defend the car, right or wrong. Remember the MotorTrend track comparison against the AMG, 911, etc, where Randy Probst said "The only car I didn't want to take around the track again was the M6"? Yeah, I found myself defending the car. Now I get it. Fact is, it is an issue. The new M cars are wonderful cars and have ridiculously good characteristics but this is truly a flaw. BMW has not figured out how to make the power usable at low end. Driving the M car side by side with a powerful AWD car makes it off the charts noticeable. I get put of my Porsche TTS (I know this comparison will irritate some but nonetheless it is very much a reality) that literally jumps off the line and sticks in turns harder as you mash the throttle and then into the M6 and I find it to be almost as if it is completely out of control. Constant modulation of the throttle is necessary to avoid wheel spin from a stop unless you very gradually apply throttle off the line and in curves-forget it. Then there's Launch "Control". No "Control" about it. BMW has not gotten the power to ground formula figured out in this car. Great car but with this much power AWD is needed. Would vastly improve the drivability. BMW has the problem of added weight however. I suspect this is the actual reason for not going to AWD rather than BMWs claim that they want the car to remain a "true RWD driving car." It's not a track car. Far too heavy. Need to take advantage of its strength-POWER! AWD would do that instantly and guaranteed everyone opposing your view would trade their RWD the day it was available.
Right!

I think part of the problem is that I actually drive an F10 M5 and have a life long love for BMW in general. It's different when some Audi or MB guy drops into a forum like this to spew anti BMW rants. But that's not the case here; we all selected this machine as our own.

I think it's important to restate that I do love the car. We have great weather in the NE now and I can't tell you how much I enjoyed hand washing and then driving my new M5 yesterday. I certainly made the right decision. I am excited to get my 1200 mile service on Wed too!!!

But the traction totally effing sucks, that's all! LOL
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      04-20-2014, 09:11 AM   #69
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This whole thread gets this long and you haven't even done 1200 miles in your M5?

You're going to have real traction problems after Wednesday when you take it over 5,500rpm.

And to the people saying that we are just covering up BMW flaws by saying "learn to drive"...

I know how to drive. I have years of on track experience from tracks all over the country. I don't have any problem getting the power down in the M5.

If people are having problems with the power then it is something that only seat time, instruction and experience can help fix. If not, either deal with it and leave the TC on or sell the car and get something else.

For me, I didn't want a lighter weight, agile, rough riding car. I just had that in my E90 M3. I think the M5 is a perfect grand touring sedan and love the blend of comfort and power.
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      04-20-2014, 09:12 AM   #70
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A few comments here.
I love the RWD because of the ability to kick it out whenever I want. This is my daily driver, and I've not had this much fun driving to work in a long time. IMO these are not track cars.
For the track, I have a 911 turbo, which is great on the street too, but you can't just spin the rear wheels. You can get the Porsche sideways around turns and have fun, but it's not the same as doing it effortlessly in the M5 at slower speeds.
In reply to buying a used M5 from stealth, I couldn't agree more. I bought mine with 8k miles on it. I did get all the options I wanted, so I could understand that living in Canada maybe more limited in supply.
Either way, M5 RWD all the way, IMO.
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      04-20-2014, 11:17 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWonlyZone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I'm not "above it all" at all

Neither have I ever said so, quite the contrary. In your last rant against me as a European I acknowledged the fact that Europe would not have been what it is today without the Marshall aid plan after WWII. Or as a very important ally during WWII, the cold war and today. To me the US is a favourite holiday destination. I have US family living close by me over here (one of them is actually having dinner at our house now). We visit our US family frequently and will celebrate 4th of July with them this summer. I have several active duty military family members in the US, including a Navy Seal. I have great respect for the US and my country has very close military and political ties with the US My country's constitution (which is 200 years this year, making it the second oldest democratic constitution in the world that is still in place in it's original form) is based on the US and French constitutions, indicating what major impact the US had on Europe as well.

But you obviously must have a grudge against us Europeans, since a simple comment about "marque vs marquee" makes you insult me as a European and everything else European... THAT is amusing

If you feel the US is "above Europe" (based on your "quite the contrary" comment). Good for you In many, many areas, the US is above/better than Europe
OK. you are sucking the positive energy out of me here.

Let's get serious, and get back to basics here. YOU decided to respond to my original post to do NOTHING more than point out a simple spelling error, and now you want to make an argument for why I am acting like the jerk?

Look in the mirror, and just accept the fact that I have made my own opinion of you (after reading several of your posts), and I am convinced you are a condescending person. I simply have no patience for it as I don't think I am better than anyone else, even you. Thanks and back to wheel spin now, ok!
I apologize for my "joke" about the marque/marquee thing. I thought it was fun since a marquee is such a different thing than a car. It was not my intention to make fun of you. IMHO it was just a common spelling error and not a reflection on you as a person. That's why I thought it was OK to joke about it. I clearly get that it didn't go down the way I thought it would.

Again, I'm sorry if I offended you. Honestly!
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      04-20-2014, 12:07 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I apologize for my "joke" about the marque/marquee thing. I thought it was fun since a marquee is such a different thing than a car. It was not my intention to make fun of you. IMHO it was just a common spelling error and not a reflection on you as a person. That's why I thought it was OK to joke about it. I clearly get that it didn't go down the way I thought it would.

Again, I'm sorry if I offended you. Honestly!
btw a marquee may mean bunch of tents in Europe but here in the U.S. it means a billboard - like the ones you see above theater entrances advertising the shows.
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      04-20-2014, 12:13 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GNALUZU View Post
This whole thread gets this long and you haven't even done 1200 miles in your M5?

You're going to have real traction problems after Wednesday when you take it over 5,500rpm.

And to the people saying that we are just covering up BMW flaws by saying "learn to drive"...

I know how to drive. I have years of on track experience from tracks all over the country. I don't have any problem getting the power down in the M5.

If people are having problems with the power then it is something that only seat time, instruction and experience can help fix. If not, either deal with it and leave the TC on or sell the car and get something else.

For me, I didn't want a lighter weight, agile, rough riding car. I just had that in my E90 M3. I think the M5 is a perfect grand touring sedan and love the blend of comfort and power.
Well said. This is the very reason I went from an E92 M3 to an M5. You need to know what you really want when you buy a car.
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      04-20-2014, 12:28 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJohn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I apologize for my "joke" about the marque/marquee thing. I thought it was fun since a marquee is such a different thing than a car. It was not my intention to make fun of you. IMHO it was just a common spelling error and not a reflection on you as a person. That's why I thought it was OK to joke about it. I clearly get that it didn't go down the way I thought it would.

Again, I'm sorry if I offended you. Honestly!
btw a marquee may mean bunch of tents in Europe but here in the U.S. it means a billboard - like the ones you see above theater entrances advertising the shows.
Learn something new everyday
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      04-20-2014, 12:45 PM   #75
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I hate the word meh and those who use it.

The word basically signifies indifference and apathy. And those who use it are usually joyless losers with no passion.

If you don't like something, get rid of it. But don't sit there apathetically and live life without joy.

What makes it even more annoying in this instance is that BMW has made in the M5 a car which makes the pulse race. How someone can drive an m5 and not smile, laugh, feel joy for every instant is beyond me! Quite frankly I would think you have to be dead on the inside to use the word meh in reference to the M5.

In fact you have to be dead on the inside to use the word meh at all. Why not get rid if the things you don't like and fill your life with joy!
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      04-20-2014, 12:54 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList
Funny how you got attacked. Fact of the matter is that you are CORRECT. It is wildly out of control when you try to put the power down. All of these "super drivers" claiming to have such skill to control the car and advising that you attend driving school, etc. are experiencing EXACTLY what you are. I have had an F10 M5 and currently am F12 M6 cab and pretty much every time I drive the M6 I get the same feeling. People "adapt" to what they drive and learn to overlook the flaws. Many will argue until they are blue in the face to defend the car, right or wrong. Remember the MotorTrend track comparison against the AMG, 911, etc, where Randy Probst said "The only car I didn't want to take around the track again was the M6"? Yeah, I found myself defending the car. Now I get it. Fact is, it is an issue. The new M cars are wonderful cars and have ridiculously good characteristics but this is truly a flaw. BMW has not figured out how to make the power usable at low end. Driving the M car side by side with a powerful AWD car makes it off the charts noticeable. I get put of my Porsche TTS (I know this comparison will irritate some but nonetheless it is very much a reality) that literally jumps off the line and sticks in turns harder as you mash the throttle and then into the M6 and I find it to be almost as if it is completely out of control. Constant modulation of the throttle is necessary to avoid wheel spin from a stop unless you very gradually apply throttle off the line and in curves-forget it. Then there's Launch "Control". No "Control" about it. BMW has not gotten the power to ground formula figured out in this car. Great car but with this much power AWD is needed. Would vastly improve the drivability. BMW has the problem of added weight however. I suspect this is the actual reason for not going to AWD rather than BMWs claim that they want the car to remain a "true RWD driving car." It's not a track car. Far too heavy. Need to take advantage of its strength-POWER! AWD would do that instantly and guaranteed everyone opposing your view would trade their RWD the day it was available.
Chris Harris seemed to be of the exact opposite opinion of Pobst in his review of the M6 vs AMG vs XF-R S. The M6 was the fun car on the track...

I think this just shows how different the current gen M5/6 is perceived. Some reviews put it last because of lack of AWD, other praise it's RWD agility and fun factor. Which is why I also said previously that the difference this gen M5 has over previous generations are it's torque. And why there are arguments for both RWD and AWD.

I have driven the M6 in the wet, and it's just hilarious how little traction you really have... But still a lot of fun, just not efficient if you are comparing it with an RS7. On the Autobahn, the Manhart M5 with well over 700hp was no problem at all. This is an environment where the M5 really shines! Fast, effortless and totally at home driving at 200-280km/h all day Also a blast on mountain passes with fluid turns and twists.

However an RS6/7 would outaccelerate it in many daily scenarioes. However I think that what makes the M5 fun to some is exactly what is frustrating for others. And both views have their own merit.
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      04-20-2014, 12:56 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GNALUZU
This whole thread gets this long and you haven't even done 1200 miles in your M5?

You're going to have real traction problems after Wednesday when you take it over 5,500rpm.

And to the people saying that we are just covering up BMW flaws by saying "learn to drive"...

I know how to drive. I have years of on track experience from tracks all over the country. I don't have any problem getting the power down in the M5.

If people are having problems with the power then it is something that only seat time, instruction and experience can help fix. If not, either deal with it and leave the TC on or sell the car and get something else.

For me, I didn't want a lighter weight, agile, rough riding car. I just had that in my E90 M3. I think the M5 is a perfect grand touring sedan and love the blend of comfort and power.
Uh huh...You are not getting anywhere near the torque that the car possesses down on a start. The car does not handle it. I have a ton of seat time in both the M5/M6.

It is not about how great of a driver someone is. It's the design of the car. You cannot put the pedal to the floor and get off the line in anywhere near the fashion that a proper AWD car will.

Not a shot at you personally here. Line them up side by side and it's obvious. Sort of why the TTS will take the McClaren MP4 0-60.
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      04-20-2014, 01:00 PM   #78
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C'mon Strealth. Condemning people as ignorant because of their choice of words?....


I get it when it comes to jeans around the knees but not all people are idiots because they use a certain word and have a different opinion about a car.

This place would be terribly boring if it were all about "rah rah". It would sort of be, well, sort of "meh"-lol!
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      04-20-2014, 01:03 PM   #79
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Why would anyone trade their car for a Marquee? Maybe a Mercury Marquis but not a bunch of tents or even a billboard-unless maybe it had a picture of Denise Richards :-)
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      04-20-2014, 01:26 PM   #80
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Swap for a marquee with this?
Attached Images
 
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      04-20-2014, 01:35 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList View Post
C'mon Strealth. Condemning people as ignorant because of their choice of words?....


I get it when it comes to jeans around the knees but not all people are idiots because they use a certain word and have a different opinion about a car.

This place would be terribly boring if it were all about "rah rah". It would sort of be, well, sort of "meh"-lol!
Don't get me wrong. I would have more respect for him if he said he hated the M5. It's the indifference that riles me.

And going online to post about his indifference. WTF!
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      04-20-2014, 01:49 PM   #82
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Lol! I'm just giving you crap. :-)
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      04-20-2014, 01:50 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Actor
Swap for a marquee with this?
Yes!
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      04-20-2014, 01:58 PM   #84
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No worries, I'm not offended.

Sometimes I think this whole debate is just, well, meh.
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      04-20-2014, 02:02 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by GNALUZU View Post
No worries, I'm not offended.

Sometimes I think this whole debate is just, well, meh.
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      04-20-2014, 04:57 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList
Quote:
Originally Posted by GNALUZU
This whole thread gets this long and you haven't even done 1200 miles in your M5?

You're going to have real traction problems after Wednesday when you take it over 5,500rpm.

And to the people saying that we are just covering up BMW flaws by saying "learn to drive"...

I know how to drive. I have years of on track experience from tracks all over the country. I don't have any problem getting the power down in the M5.

If people are having problems with the power then it is something that only seat time, instruction and experience can help fix. If not, either deal with it and leave the TC on or sell the car and get something else.

For me, I didn't want a lighter weight, agile, rough riding car. I just had that in my E90 M3. I think the M5 is a perfect grand touring sedan and love the blend of comfort and power.
Uh huh...You are not getting anywhere near the torque that the car possesses down on a start. The car does not handle it. I have a ton of seat time in both the M5/M6.

It is not about how great of a driver someone is. It's the design of the car. You cannot put the pedal to the floor and get off the line in anywhere near the fashion that a proper AWD car will.

Not a shot at you personally here. Line them up side by side and it's obvious. Sort of why the TTS will take the McClaren MP4 0-60.
But isn't exactly that what some find thrilling? That they, the driver, have to balance throttle input in relation to available traction?

When F1 banned traction control some years ago it became much more clear which of the drivers that had better throttle control in the wet... The ban on traction control helped the good drivers whereas TC was an equalizer between drivers with great throttle control and those that didn't have that.

Everyone can get a GTR off the line using LC and get it fast out of a corner relying on it's AWD. It's very effective and quick. But doing the same in a RWD car gives more satisfaction to many, because it needs more involvement and perhaps skills from the driver. And is exactly what others find frustrating, because there is power resources left unused due to lack of traction. They would rather like to be able to put the pedal to the metal and get full use of all the power at all times. I see both sides of that view. It's personal preferences and possibly not a "right or wrong" situation...

Perhaps the same reason the 911 GT3 is RWD and the Turbo is AWD...? I guess the GT3 is more of a drivers car that requires more from the driver to do the same lap times as the Turbo?
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      04-20-2014, 05:15 PM   #87
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One thing to also keep in mind, the M5 wasn't meant to compete in the Stop Light Grand Prix. If you live your life a quarter mile at a time then this isn't the right car. Get an AWD like the GTR or a modified Evo or WRX.

Heck, you can buy a modified '91 Eagle Talon if traction is that important.
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      04-20-2014, 06:00 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
But isn't exactly that what some find thrilling? That they, the driver, have to balance throttle input in relation to available traction?

When F1 banned traction control some years ago it became much more clear which of the drivers that had better throttle control in the wet... The ban on traction control helped the good drivers whereas TC was an equalizer between drivers with great throttle control and those that didn't have that.

Everyone can get a GTR off the line using LC and get it fast out of a corner relying on it's AWD. It's very effective and quick. But doing the same in a RWD car gives more satisfaction to many, because it needs more involvement and perhaps skills from the driver. And is exactly what others find frustrating, because there is power resources left unused due to lack of traction. They would rather like to be able to put the pedal to the metal and get full use of all the power at all times. I see both sides of that view. It's personal preferences and possibly not a "right or wrong" situation...

Perhaps the same reason the 911 GT3 is RWD and the Turbo is AWD...? I guess the GT3 is more of a drivers car that requires more from the driver to do the same lap times as the Turbo?
Everybody cracks me up with these F1 car comparisons-what?!

First of all-F1 cars are FAST but they don't LAUNCH out of the hole. They are LOW TORQUE and they certainly put their power down right off the line and in a very linear manner they accelerate to ridiculously high speeds (think E60 M5):
[u2b]
[/u2b]

Secondly, the OP said the M5 does not effectively put down power to the wheels in a way that inspires confidence. He is right. It burns the tires very easily. This discussion wasn't about how different people prefer it. It was about the OP pointing this out and his not being so fond of it. He gets attacked for it and told that he should "get a different car" or "should have known better". He never said he hated or didn't want the car. I don't think I have ever purchased a car and loved everything about it. All of you who say "well, that's the fun of it" are reinforcing his point. It does not put the power down well. It SPINS very very easily. We all know it. We all have one. We all can just go right out in the driveway, fire it up, stomp on the gas and burn the wheels-meaning that you CANNOT effectively put all the power down to the road. We can sit here all day and point out areas where it can be made to do it well but if you have to do that then the car does not actually put power down well. It merely works in certain conditions. It also does not do it well in turns (so here we deviate from the claim that the OP and anyone else who opposes the "fan at all costs" view is talking about 0-60 only-which I find HYSTERICAL because just look back at all the threads where everyone WAS talking about the 0-60 times of the M5. It seems to be discussed when it suits people) because it LEANS heavily under the weight and the tires do not stay planted when you add a little throttle. Spinning tires=not putting power down. It does not always put the power down well from slow rolls either. I always felt that my M5 was just right there on the edge of being reckless for lack of a better term. You have to be very careful to not let it get away from you. YES-it can be fun and some prefer that-GREAT. Doesn't mean the OP is an idiot because he points out the challenges that do NOT appeal to him.

The car is a MAGNIFICENT Grand-Tourer and let's face it, GTs are not really meant for drag races, hard curves or TRACK. Even at BMW Performance school they tell you they don't adore the M5 on the track. It is a heavy car with a powerful engine that is meant to be a powerful mash and go car. It just doesn't fit into the "sports" category or the "luxury" category completely. Sort of a mix but more towards luxury with massive power. Reminds me of my Ferrari California in a big way, except that I think the M5 is actually more fun to drive in some ways. The car has insane throttle response but I am not throwing it hard into a turn. It does however cruise very well and is very comfortable and very pretty to look at.

And does the GT3 really require more of the driver to put down better lap times? Who knows? Different car, different suspension and really not meant for the road no matter how "compliant" Porsche tells you that it is. The Turbo is the road car and frankly is the perfect example of what a road car should be. It has massive horse power and insane torque. It is 100% usable ALL of the time. You jump on the throttle and you feel the Gs pinning you to the seat. It corners well, brakes well-basically exactly what you should want in a road car. I am imagining you guys talking about how you love spinning those tires and kicking the rear ends out-REALLY? I did this in my 1980 Camaro in HS. Are you guys really the ones doing fishtails everywhere? C'mon. I can't at all believe that when you want to pull out into a traffic lane with cars moving at decent speeds that you wouldn't really like to know that you can hit that gas and get in there without fighting wheel spin. The M6 does not allow this. You sort of give it some gas and hop out there hoping not to spin and then gradually lay into it to get going. It's just not confidence inspiring.

OUTSTANDING cars and certainly better than most cars on the road-hands down best in class but it is not perfect. The power to the road issue is just one of the challenges with it. EVERY car has it's shortcomings.
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Last edited by ColdList; 04-20-2014 at 06:12 PM..
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