Is it me or is the Harmon Kardon louder than the Bang & Olufsen?

[RPiM5]

Kind of reviving an old topic of discussion here, but hey it's not like M is releasing the Competition Package Mark III for the F10 M5 for us to talk about so I figured what the hay.

A couple of weeks ago I had to drop off old Mika to get her control arm replaced thanks to the wonderful streets here in the DC area. The dealership gave me a brand spanking new 328d for a loaner, which had about 30 miles on it. The 328d they gave me was fully fully loaded, every option ticket, and I was pleasantly surprised by the cars qualities. It even had the M Sports Package. So naturally when I accept a loaner and before driving off the dealer lot I configure the vehicle to my specifications, i.e. adjust the mirrors, adjust the seat, set up the car to use my iPhone for music, and so on. Being that the car was brand new I also adjusted the Equalizer settings for the Harmon Kardon. When I took off from the dealer and started to play music through my iPhone connected through the USB, I quickly noticed that the sound system sounded pretty damn good. I could easily identify that the it was very much lacking in bass and clarity in the lower and upper channels though, but I honestly felt that it sounded about 80% as good as the Bang & Olufsen. One thing I did notice though was loudness of the system. In the 328d with the Harmon Kardon I could barely get the volume up to 50% without feeling like my eardrums are going to get blown out. I tested several songs in the 328d to make sure I wasn't losing my mind. A day later when I returned the loaner and stepped back into my M5, I reconnected my iPhone via USB and switch to Studio Mode on the B&O to get a closer sound to what I felt like I experienced with the Harmon Kardon and I cranked up the music. I definitely felt like I could easily get up to 75% volume on the B&O before it started to become uncomfortable. So now I'm thinking this is really weired for BMW to make such a difference between a 328's Harmon Kardon and the B&O in the M5. Two cars that are pretty much the opposite ends of their line up.

It was nice to hear the better clarity in the B&O for sure, but the comparison between the two makes me feel like BMW is ripping customers off by charging 77% more for a system that sounds 20-25% better. Keep in mind that I never tested the Harmon Kardon or the B&O before buying the M5 or test driving any F-Series BMW, even after a few years of driving the M5 so I'm kind of surprised. Unless of course 77% of the cost of the B&O is the elegant looking speaker covers. Considering other German companies like Porsche and Audi do the same thing, I wouldn't be surprised if it was true. But seriously look at how much Volvo charges for the Bowers and Wilkins system which is superior to the B&O and you'll see what I mean. Sound systems on German cars seem to be subject to a lot of "rich guy tax." Lol!

On a side note, I really enjoyed the 328d and it was kind of nice getting 54mpg on the highway. Although no power or torque in that thing after driving the M5. Would make an excellent daily if I had space for another car.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

It was nice to hear the better clarity in the B&O for sure, but the comparison between the two makes me feel like BMW is ripping customers off by charging 77% more for a system that sounds 20-25% better

Nowhere more than hi-fidelity does the law of diminishing returns apply. People will often pay double or triple for what other people may regard as a fairly trivial improvement in sound.

Having said that, in the hi-fi world, neither Harman Kardon nor B&O are renowned for great sound quality. One is known for its value for money, the other for its styling, but neither are rated too highly in the sound quality stakes.

But far worse than the sound systems is the sound of certain compressed format digital files typically stored on an iPhone. MP3 files for example sound absolutely terrible. I tried some Amazon downloads once and frankly I'd rather listen to the exhaust note and thrum of Michelins on tarmac than that ghastly compressed music that's lacking in bass, treble air and ambience. Dull, lifeless, flat and totally irritating only begin to describe the sound of a low resolution MP3.

Perceived loudness can be a number of things:
Distance from the speakers
Efficiency of the speakers
Amplifier power
Level & type of distortion

The less distorted the sound, the higher the volume you can tolerate without discomfort. The more distortion present, the louder the system is perceived

Finally, in my experience, the HK systems sound best and most musical when the equalizer is left on flat response. Unless your ears are lacking in the frequency extremes, boosting either is eventually tiring...again in my experience

[boots]

Dave the best sounding m was when they had cassette tapes. Before that 8 track. Now take that!!! Lol. Who needs b&o

[frisky]

Note also that the 3 series has a smaller cabin in terms of volume than the 5. Not by much, to be sure, but the smaller enclosed space will have more of an affect in perceived "loudness" than fidelity.

f.

[elitex]

What Steve said. After a certain point you have to start spending big money for minimal upgrade.

[dadysev]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Nowhere more than hi-fidelity does the law of diminishing returns apply. People will often pay double or triple for what other people may regard as a fairly trivial improvement in sound.

Having said that, in the hi-fi world, neither Harman Kardon nor B&O are renowned for great sound quality. One is known for its value for money, the other for its styling, but neither are rated too highly in the sound quality stakes.

But far worse than the sound systems is the sound of certain compressed format digital files typically stored on an iPhone. MP3 files for example sound absolutely terrible. I tried some Amazon downloads once and frankly I'd rather listen to the exhaust note and thrum of Michelins on tarmac than that ghastly compressed music that's lacking in bass, treble air and ambience. Dull, lifeless, flat and totally irritating only begin to describe the sound of a low resolution MP3.

Perceived loudness can be a number of things:
Distance from the speakers
Efficiency of the speakers
Amplifier power
Level & type of distortion

The less distorted the sound, the higher the volume you can tolerate without discomfort. The more distortion present, the louder the system is perceived

Finally, in my experience, the HK systems sound best and most musical when the equalizer is left on flat response. Unless your ears are lacking in the frequency extremes, boosting either is eventually tiring...again in my experience

What he said ^^^ . I'm a part time DJ and most of the music used now a days is MP3's. I laugh when other Djs talk about sound systems and quality. Garbage in, garbage out. Back in the days when we played records it was a different game. But this compressed format just sucks for quality testing.

[evilb]

SteveC is spot on. The next big thing will be 96/24 audio as the norm.

[RPiM5]

Well said Steve. I'm personally a fan of streaming music via mobile devices, although I do have quite a few high quality songs downloaded from the internet and stored on the M5's hard drive and they do sound spectacular on the B&O, but I like to listen to a variety of music that I don't have to download as well. I know some Musics Apps for mobile devices stream high quality music and the best way to listen to it is via a USB connection and not the Bluetooth, but I think as time goes on, technology gets more advanced, we will start to see more and more high quality sources of music come about. I've really enjoyed my B&O since day 1 and I feel the price I paid for it was worth every penny, even if it is ridiculous, as I am 99.5% always riding my car alone and can listen to whatever I want. Otherwise I do think the B&O is a great conversation piece whenever people ride in my car and ask what that thing on top of the dash is. Lol!

While we are on this topic, anybody get a chance to listen to the new Bowers and Wilkins system in another brand vehicle that will be coming to a BMW near you in the future? I know Volvo has it. The new G11 7-Series has it and I know the next generation M5 will have it too.

[frisky]

Originally Posted by dadysev

What he said ^^^ . I'm a part time DJ and most of the music used now a days is MP3's. I laugh when other Djs talk about sound systems and quality. Garbage in, garbage out. Back in the days when we played records it was a different game. But this compressed format just sucks for quality testing.

Yep. Exactly. Ive been in music tech for more than 15 years. I always laugh when people say they can "hear" the difference between a 256K and 320K MP3 file. Most people (>90%) cant even tell the difference between a FLAC lossless file and 128K mp3. Thats why all these lossless streaming services are more marketing than anything.

But I digress...
f.

[dadysev]

Originally Posted by frisky

Yep. Exactly. Ive been in music tech for more than 15 years. I always laugh when people say they can "hear" the difference between a 256K and 320K MP3 file. Most people (>90%) cant even tell the difference between a FLAC lossless file and 128K mp3. Thats why all these lossless streaming services are more marketing than anything.

But I digress...
f.

lol !! Yup!! desensitized to lossless music now a days.

[R3dn3k Flyby]

In my opinion, it's all about how you setup the EQ.

My '07 335i had the Logic 7. My '08 M3 and '11 M3 both had the Enhanced Premium Sound. My '13 M5 has the B&O. All of them sounded like garbage when I purchased the car, and once I dialed in the EQ, they all sound phenomenal. The B&O is definitely the king of the heap in the sound quality/clarity department and the bass it's able to deliver when tuned properly overshadows the others as well in my opinion.

-James

[David 12]

Music in the digital domain is certainly convenient but has always sounded a little sterile to me unless you have a high quality DAC. That's why audiophile grade turntables and tube amps have made a comeback.

I remember my high school/college days when I was running a real car audio system. Talk about high fidelity with a fair amount of bass.

I do not have the B & O option but I agree with fly by in that you have to dial in any system.

Dave

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by R3dn3k Flyby

In my opinion, it's all about how you setup the EQ.

My '07 335i had the Logic 7. My '08 M3 and '11 M3 both had the Enhanced Premium Sound. My '13 M5 has the B&O. All of them sounded like garbage when I purchased the car, and once I dialed in the EQ, they all sound phenomenal. The B&O is definitely the king of the heap in the sound quality/clarity department and the bass it's able to deliver when tuned properly overshadows the others as well in my opinion.

-James

Hi James, with respect, I have never owned any sound system, ever, that sounded better with large parts of the sonic spectrum either boosted or cut. I have been an audiophile for 40 years and in that time have owned many different systems, including home concocted and manufacturer configured. My home systems typically do not offer graphic equalization, as its not seen as beneficial by most high-end hi-fi manufacturers.

Car systems and personal stereos on the other hand seem to treat graphic equalization as a must-have feature.
I listen to a lot of music. For the most part, dialling in some sort of sound effect just sounds like what it is.....distortion....a type of coloration that's present on every recording. It may sound spectacular to begin with but ultimately becomes tiring. The acid test after dialling in changes is to remove them after a few days. If you get a sense of relief or a feeling of getting rid of oppressive bass or treble, you know your adjustments aren't working.

There are of course a few recording that do benefit from a slight boost of bass, treble or midrange to compensate for poor recording technique, but I've never found a setting on any system I've owned that sounded better on all recordings with anything other than flat frequency response.

Of course there are cases where graphic equalization comes into its own. Listening at abnormally low or high levels or for people with frequency related hearing defects spring to mind.

BMWs offer the potential for some fairly serious tuning to their sound systems. Sorting out the various crossovers between speakers rather than relying on the speaker's natural bandwidth limiting roll-off brings some real clean-up of the sound, as does beefing up the damping and stiffness of speaker baffles like shelves and door panels.

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Well said Steve. I'm personally a fan of streaming music via mobile devices, although I do have quite a few high quality songs downloaded from the internet and stored on the M5's hard drive and they do sound spectacular on the B&O, but I like to listen to a variety of music that I don't have to download as well. I know some Musics Apps for mobile devices stream high quality music and the best way to listen to it is via a USB connection and not the Bluetooth, but I think as time goes on, technology gets more advanced, we will start to see more and more high quality sources of music come about. I've really enjoyed my B&O since day 1 and I feel the price I paid for it was worth every penny, even if it is ridiculous, as I am 99.5% always riding my car alone and can listen to whatever I want. Otherwise I do think the B&O is a great conversation piece whenever people ride in my car and ask what that thing on top of the dash is. Lol!

While we are on this topic, anybody get a chance to listen to the new Bowers and Wilkins system in another brand vehicle that will be coming to a BMW near you in the future? I know Volvo has it. The new G11 7-Series has it and I know the next generation M5 will have it too.

I test drove the new Volvo T6 which has the B&W system. Very high clarity, but then I agree the laws of increasing diminishing returns really does kick in versus the stock Harmon Kardon in the current M5. I have the B&O and honestly the difference in sound isn't worth the extra $ IMO anyway.

[stealth.pilot]

What is the total watts divided by the number of speakers?

[B-1Pilot]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

While we are on this topic, anybody get a chance to listen to the new Bowers and Wilkins system in another brand vehicle that will be coming to a BMW near you in the future? I know Volvo has it. The new G11 7-Series has it and I know the next generation M5 will have it too.

I have it in my new Volvo XC-90 (picked up from the Factory in Sweden one week ago -- sweet ride).

I think the B&W is fantastic -- very nicely appointed speakers and look -- you can see the kevlar through the grills.

For the sound I think it is great. I did not have the B&O in the M5 so I can't give a direct comparison. I have the HK in my 3 series and it blows that away. But it also requires a lot more knob motion to get loud.

The best parts of the Volvo system are the DSP built in to it, and the exterior vented sub. The Nautilus tweeters give amazing clarity that really shines in high def audio sources. The base is very tight and integrated well. It has a Goteborg Concert hall mode that is quite interesting in that it give a nice larger room feel, but can also do customized seating programs for just the driver, or for just the front seats, or for all seven seats, depending on who is onboard and listening.

To answer Stealth, the system in the Volvo is a 19 speaker, 1400W system. http://blog.bowers-wilkins.com/speak...tem-for-volvo/




and obligatory pic of the whole car:

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

What is the total watts divided by the number of speakers?

Good question.

The Harman Kardon has 16 Speakers and 625 watts total. Giving 39 watts per speaker.

http://www.harman.com/en-us/newscent...x#.Va-5JfnZW-8

The Bang & Olufsen has 16 Speakers and 1,200 watts total. Giving 75 watts per speaker.

http://www.bang-olufsen.com/en/car-a...es,-,Limousine

But I'm telling you that I'm not crazy when I tell you that the Harman Kardon in the 328d I drove hurt my ears when at only 50% volume level. Maybe there is something wrong with my B&O or my iDrive then. I may need to sit in another owners M5 or 5 series with the B&O and play music to just make sure that I'm not crazy. I was even messing with my B&O again this morning on the way to work. I can easily get it up to 75-80% volume without feeling uncomfortable.

[SteveC]

# of watts divided by # of speakers is a completely meaningless calculation without knowing the speakers' efficiency

To give you an example one speaker may produce 85dB from a one watt input while another may produce 116dB from the same watt, all depending on the speaker's efficiency. Given that 3dB increase is a doubling of sound pressure, that's quite a difference. Some of the finest high-end hi-fi is based on extremely low powered amplifiers and high efficiency speakers.

In the no-free-lunch stakes, high output amplifiers usually trade off finesse and accuracy for high output, so power alone is not a good benchmark when it comes to sound quality.

[Mr.SugarSkulls]

Am I the only person who seems to prefer the sound in the HK over the B&O? :

That little pop up speaker on the B&O is neat though.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by SteveC

# of watts divided by # of speakers is a completely meaningless calculation without knowing the speakers' efficiency

To give you an example one speaker may produce 85dB from a one watt input while another may produce 116dB from the same watt, all depending on the speaker's efficiency. Given that 3dB increase is a doubling of sound pressure, that's quite a difference. Some of the finest high-end hi-fi is based on extremely low powered amplifiers and high efficiency speakers.

In the no-free-lunch stakes, high output amplifiers usually trade off finesse and accuracy for high output, so power alone is not a good benchmark when it comes to sound quality.

Cool! Didn't know that.

So I guess what you are saying is that it is totally possible for the HK to be louder than the B&O.

[shellbmb]

And why does the HK system in my wife's GL550 sound better than the HK system in my F10? It's not even close. Curious if they use different components or what.

[mcvaughan]

Wow! And I thought already the B&O was loud. It's definitely louder than the system in my E60.