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      07-23-2012, 09:53 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by 48Laws View Post
Whether there is one officer or 300, they are a person designated to protect the public. Their mission is the same. To protect the public as a whole. One or 300 cops working to protect me doesn't change the mission.

How are helicopters, vantage points, hundreds of armed, al beit lower caliber weapons, officers not an advantage? You see, terrorism, and that was terrorism, is designed to cause confusion. But the confusion that occurred that day wasn't a disadvantage to an entire LAPD force. It took time for them to harness their talent.

Listen, MPOWER specifically said "similar firepower" to which you replied the NHSO was a good example. It is not. 9mm hand guns =/= 7.62mm assault rifles.

What good does a helicopter do besides let you know where they are? Are you going to go all Grand Theft Auto and crash the helicopter into them? You also don't understand how underpowered the police were or the basics of the shootout. The gunmen were standing in front of the bank while most of the police were over 30 feet away. Once the shooting started they retreated into the parking lot across the street for cover since their squad cars offered zero protection. A 9mm pistol isn't the most accurate weapon past 30 feet, especially when you have to expose yourself to fully automatic fire in order to shoot back.

The gunmen also had the advantage of force multiplication. This documentary I saw said they fired around 1,300 rounds during the time of the shootout, which equals a round every 2 seconds. With their drum rounds one gunman could give covering fire and keep the police pinned down while the other reloaded and vice versa. Effectively they created a non stop barrage of bullets which kept the police pinned down. Even if you have hundreds of officers none of them are going to be stupid enough to expose themselves in order to shoot back. Special Forces apply this same tactic of firing non stop in order to give the illusion that they are a much larger group then they actually are.

And once SWAT arrived with their AR-15's the firefight was over in a matter of minutes. If every officer had been armed in such a way, most likely, the fight wouldn't have lasted more than 5.
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      07-23-2012, 10:06 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by The J-Man View Post
The most disturbing thing about this thread is that only one person has brought up the issue of gun ownership to protect against the government. This was and is the purpose of the second amendment, and should thus be preserved for that reason. Do you all believe that tyranny does not exist in the 21st century? In the course of human history, it was a blink ago that Hitler and Stalin were rounding up and exterminating millions of unarmed people. The people pulling the strings in this world are generally very bad people, and have much to gain from gun control. These shootings make said people very happy. Strangely enough, there is a major gun control treaty coming up in a few weeks. Very convenient timing.

Bottom line is that government has killed exponentially more people in the past one hundred years than any sort of terrorist. The second amendement in the United States does more to promote freedom and deter tyranny around the world than most people have ever even considered. Once the 2nd amendement falls, what dpes anybody have left to defend themselves with?

Yep, most people failed to understand this, the 2nd amendment was not about you preserving your rights to protect your property from you neighbor but to protect your property from the government.

As long as the people can own guns it allow the people a fighting chance against a government who wishes to take your right away. What the stupified sheep public fails to see is the government slowing limiting your rights one law at a time.

By the way, maybe if one person in the Denver Theater was carrying less people would have been killed or injured.

Like this guy

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=428_1342491285

I guaranty the shooter was a pussy and if someone started shooting at him he would have ran like a scared kid. As someone already said it is very easy to stand there and shot when nothing is returning. If you do not believe me, go play pain ball, I never see people just stand there and take round after round most run and hide when paint comes fly back. It call self preservation and it is a involuntary action that the mind going through to protect you.

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      07-23-2012, 10:22 AM   #135
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Here is an example of our government attacking its citizens...this is why we need guns...and rifles...and a whole bunch of other stuff

a little OT...this is the true origin of the term "redneck"...a prideful group of union miners that organized a labor strike and ultimately fought the government...somehow it has since taken on a negative racial connotation

http://www.wvculture.org/history/minewars.html


On September 1, President Harding finally sent federal troops from Fort Thomas, Kentucky. War hero Billy Mitchell led an air squadron from Langley Field near Washington, D.C. The squadron set up headquarters in a vacant field in the present Kanawha City section of Charleston. Several planes did not make it, crashing in such distant places as Nicholas County, Raleigh County, and southwestern Virginia, and military air power played no important part in the battle. On the 3rd, the first federal troops arrived at Jeffrey, Sharples, Blair, and Logan. Confronted with the possibility of fighting against U.S. troops, most of the miners surrendered. Some of the miners on Blair Mountain continued fighting until the 4th, at which time virtually all surrendered or returned to their homes. During the fighting, at least twelve miners and four men from Chafin's army were killed.
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      07-23-2012, 11:24 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augenbrauezug View Post
If you're argument would include so many lols, dudes, and 'owned' I don't think you'd even need to bother 'jumping in'.

Our constitution was written over 200 years ago, by mortal men.
Lol lighten up dude before you get owned. This is a BMW forum, not congress. Good post, good post... LOL

Your posts have been well thought out. Don't be so condescending just because I didn't put together the time to write a post at the level of you guys. I've had this conversation millions of times, pardon me for not really getting into it for leisure.

Your last sentence though... Again exuding arrogance. So you live 200 years later than the men that wrote the constitution, are you saying you have better judgement on what is best for people currently? How about in 50 years. Will your opinions be outdated? With the risk of getting slightly philosophical, people do NOT change. What surrounds them does. The constitution is aimed directly at what we do and require at the core of ourselves, not what we need in the world surrounding us. Someone earlier made an extremely interesting point branched of the real meaning of the second amendment: arming ourselves against the government. While slightly cynical, he said that our elected representatives are actually pleased about shootings like this, giving them firepower to support their campaigns and ultimately give them more power. I believe the modern interpretation of the 2nd amendment is that we shouldn't be reliant on others to help us, but rather self sufficient. YOU may choose not to be, but the other person may they want to. I understand the huge variable that unknown people carrying weapons brings in, but understand that your feelings have an exact opposite as well. The people that do want to have it in their own hands think- why would I not take action for my own life, others shouldn't tell me how to protect myself- and I believe that is just as morally right as you not wanting someone else taking action, especially since it is backed by the constitution. So there you go, no dudes-LOL's-or owned('s?) in that paragraph for you to whine about .
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Last edited by Sauce; 07-23-2012 at 11:47 AM..
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      07-23-2012, 11:39 AM   #137
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This whole discussion on "Gun possession" is moot.

The language is clear:

the right of the people to keep(possess) and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

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      07-23-2012, 12:05 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Augenbrauezug View Post
If your talking about my post, you vastly misconstrued it.

I also starkly disagree with the bold area. In a dark, tear gas filled movie theater, with people screaming and shoving, the likely hood of someone stopping this with their own gun was highly unlikely. I'd be willing to bet that if you asked ANY of the officers that responded that night, none would say they wish someone ELSE had been carrying a gun.

Now in 99% of situations I do agree, I'd rather the random guy next to me be carrying. As you said police response time isn't quick enough to keep someone from shooting me. I'm not arguing we change the constitution, or ban guns.
You are free to disagree, but you're wrong. A single trained individual could and likely would have made a huge difference in the outcome of the situation. It appears you do not have much experience with interpersonal violence. Tell me why you think it unlikely that a trained, motivated and experienced person couldn't have made a difference. There are many people in this world who have spent considerable time in dark, smoke filled arenas with people trying to kill them. I would bet that a person like that would have prevailed in Colorado.

Now, I'm not saying Joe average with a CCW could have handled it, but that isn't what I said earlier either. Also, I am not saying that my trained person would have prevented ALL death or injury, but minimized the exposure to shots being fired by the assailant.
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      07-23-2012, 12:31 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by sjk9671 View Post
This whole discussion on "Gun possession" is moot.

The language is clear:

the right of the people to keep(possess) and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Doesn't sound very "clear" to me. Other than preventing the banning of arms ownership, all other details are open to interpretation and regulation.
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      07-23-2012, 12:35 PM   #140
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they'd have to come take my guns from my dead body and by the looks of thing, they may come in handy in the near future if the world economies fail.
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      07-23-2012, 12:38 PM   #141
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they'd have to come take my guns from my dead body and by the looks of thing, they may come in handy in the near future if the world economies fail.
lol
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      07-23-2012, 01:12 PM   #142
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I am personally glad all the guns I own, mostly hunting rifles and shotguns were bough long before all these laws were put in place. Meaning no one but me knows what I have which is way it should be.

When people talk about gun controls I always like this picture- yeah I know it fake but it makes the point nicely.

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      07-23-2012, 01:13 PM   #143
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Perhaps making a mandatory registration process between private sales of firearms might cut down on wrongful ownership. I don't know. Like it was stated before the Colorado shooter had no problem passing the BATF check. I prefer gun laws to restrict felons and habitual offenders from retail access. Guns will never be eliminated from this country even if thr government performed a house by house sweep. Knowing that, I want to have the right to own a firearm to protect myself and my family.
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      07-23-2012, 01:25 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Chrisruf911 View Post
Perhaps making a mandatory registration process between private sales of firearms might cut down on wrongful ownership. I don't know. Like it was stated before the Colorado shooter had no problem passing the BATF check. I prefer gun laws to restrict felons and habitual offenders from retail access. Guns will never be eliminated from this country even if thr government performed a house by house sweep. Knowing that, I want to have the right to own a firearm to protect myself and my family.
Yea exactly...

lol at the sign 2 comments above
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looks like unicorn vomit.
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      07-23-2012, 03:57 PM   #145
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There are certainly some situations where having 1 more armed person could have reduced the body count, such as a more well-lit area, where identification of the "good guys" vs the "bad guys" is more readily apparent.

This situation is not one of them. I would not be surprised if the shooter chose this environment specifically for that reason. He even waited for a loud, intense action scene to do the deed.

It's very dark, except for sudden, bright flashes of light as action takes place on the screen. The loud sound effects contribute to the chaos of the atmosphere. To top it all off, many people are wearing unusual costumes to this event, so someone wearing body armor would not necessarily stand out like they would at a screening of a romantic comedy.

The shooter lets off canisters of gas, thus (literally) clouding the visibility even worse.

You are sitting with your handgun. Shots are fired. Thru the smoke, you can probably briefly see outlines of people during the bright flashes of action on screen. You are not the only armed "good guy" in the theatre. There is a guy with orange hair and body armor, returning fire with another person who has a gun, and who also may be in costume. In the chaos of it all, who do you shoot at ? Is it obvious who the bad guy is? It would be really easy in the cap the wrong person here. Even if you do, someone else who is armed then plugs you, because you had the misfortune to sit under a THX surround sound speaker so it seems that many shots are coming from your position due to the action scene.

This is not the same as some well lit mall food court, where the shooter is wearing combat gear, and all the other shoppers are in shorts and t-shirts.
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      07-23-2012, 04:07 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
There are certainly some situations where having 1 more armed person could have reduced the body count, such as a more well-lit area, where identification of the "good guys" vs the "bad guys" is more readily apparent.

This situation is not one of them. I would not be surprised if the shooter chose this environment specifically for that reason. He even waited for a loud, intense action scene to do the deed.

It's very dark, except for sudden, bright flashes of light as action takes place on the screen. The loud sound effects contribute to the chaos of the atmosphere. To top it all off, many people are wearing unusual costumes to this event, so someone wearing body armor would not necessarily stand out like they would at a screening of a romantic comedy.

The shooter lets off canisters of gas, thus (literally) clouding the visibility even worse.

You are sitting with your handgun. Shots are fired. Thru the smoke, you can probably briefly see outlines of people during the bright flashes of action on screen. You are not the only armed "good guy" in the theatre. There is a guy with orange hair and body armor, returning fire with another person who has a gun, and who also may be in costume. In the chaos of it all, who do you shoot at ? Is it obvious who the bad guy is? It would be really easy in the cap the wrong person here. Even if you do, someone else who is armed then plugs you, because you had the misfortune to sit under a THX surround sound speaker so it seems that many shots are coming from your position due to the action scene.

This is not the same as some well lit mall food court, where the shooter is wearing combat gear, and all the other shoppers are in shorts and t-shirts.
While I agree that the theater is not the same as the mall, do you think that police and military only train for well lit occasions on perfect 75 degree days? You're wrong. Muzzle flashes are substantially different than movie flashes and smoke is not a complete deterrent, ESPECIALLY in the dark. Here's an example of what I mean.

No imagine this image about 70 times. Scary? Yes. Difficult? No.
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      07-23-2012, 04:23 PM   #147
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While I agree that the theater is not the same as the mall, do you think that police and military only train for well lit occasions on perfect 75 degree days?
I dont think that police and military only train for ideal clear conditions. If the only people allowed to carry guns always had to have that level of training, then maybe yes they could have stopped the shooter.

However, as the laws are now, I dont believe you have to undergo that level of training to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

Lets assume that if you were in that theatre, you could remain relatively composed, and identify the bad guy to your background. You aim your gun at him. I'm also there, but I have no such background, although I do have a gun. The craziness of it all scares the shit out of me, and my untrained ear hears lots of shots coming from you (or the THX speaker), and I panic and decide that you are the bad guy since you might be wearing a batman costume which might resemble body armor, and shoot you while trying to do the right thing...
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      07-23-2012, 04:27 PM   #148
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Lol, dude, 48Laws, you're getting absolutely OWNED here. I don't even feel the need to jump in with an argument, CollinsE90 is handling this.

All I will say is it is in our constitution and our right to be able to bear arms. Anything can be a weapon. What I find odd is that whether guns are legal to carry or not, the criminal-the one killing people, still has them. I feel as if it only limits the people that SHOULD be carrying.
Considering the demographics of this forum and the daily topics, you would think someone like me who clearly has a more broader view of these issues is getting "owned". Simple view points always attract the simple minded because they are way too lazy to understand topics in their entirety. They rather fight tooth and nail based on what they think is true because that's what they've always believed. They have absolutely no room for a broader perspective. If you criticize something about gun ownership in this nation, you're totally against guns. Oh, MY LORD!!!! There's not a subject matter this kid can "own" me on. Who you kiddin'?

By the way, the US Constitution is a living, breathing document and must be adapted to our times.
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      07-23-2012, 04:28 PM   #149
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First of all, you are now adding in hypotheticals into a scenario that don't exist. We can what if any scenario until it is un-winnable.

Secondly, if you were scared shitless, you'd probably run, not fight.

Third, if you are that untrained that you can't differentiate between the threat and the solution, leave your gun at home.

Fourth, By the time I shot, you probably wouldn't even see me or have time to react. I will not be advertising my position like the bad guy.

And lastly, don't be stupid. I wouldn't be caught dead in a batman costume at a movie theater.
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      07-23-2012, 04:35 PM   #150
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But, the part of the constitution that is flawed isn't the 2nd Amendment. If we did a better job at preventing the import of illegal firearms into the wrong hands, some of the issues would be resolved.
What a genius. Wouldn't that only be accomplished through gun control, ya know the topic at hand? Geez


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When you deal with 300 million people, not everything can go perfectly. You have to do what you can to help as a whole, not fix one single issue by punishing everyone as a group.
How is everyone getting punished? You see, this is the typical uninformed gun-nut response. Have your rights personally ever been interrupted illegally by a gov't? Have your legally acquired firearms ever been confiscated without provocation? Can you NOT purchased a firearm in 2012? So, please show me how "everyone" is getting this so called punishment? Basically, your entire position is fear-mongering. It's based off the fallacy that the gov't will take all of your guns based on the idea that if we talk about the issues surrounding gun violence in this nation, that automatically means, "weez gonna take yer gunz..."
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      07-23-2012, 04:41 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by immiketoo View Post
Third, if you are that untrained that you can't differentiate between the threat and the solution, leave your gun at home.
I agree with the sentiment of this statement.

Do you know of a way to ensure that is the case, that only the people who can be counted on to use a gun correctly in a crazy situation are allowed to take the gun out of the house with them?

It seems to me, the system as it is now does not have any way to enforce this idea.

A repeating theme of some comments is not "if only a trained, experienced LEO or military personnel was there", but the more generic "if only 1 more person in that theatre was carrying, then fewer would be killed".

That's the point I am trying to make. Those two kinds of people are NOT interchangable. One is an asset (but in short supply), and one is a liability (but in generous supply).

ps: dont knock the batman leotard till you've tried it !
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      07-23-2012, 04:42 PM   #152
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Guys none of you were there and to think it could have played in various ways is ridiculous. In a situation like this no one know what they may do until it happens. We would all like to think we would be man enough to take this guy on but look at how many men in the threater pussy out and left friend, family, and love ones behind and ran for the doors.
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      07-23-2012, 04:43 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
I dont think that police and military only train for ideal clear conditions. If the only people allowed to carry guns always had to have that level of training, then maybe yes they could have stopped the shooter.

However, as the laws are now, I dont believe you have to undergo that level of training to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

Lets assume that if you were in that theatre, you could remain relatively composed, and identify the bad guy to your background. You aim your gun at him. I'm also there, but I have no such background, although I do have a gun. The craziness of it all scares the shit out of me, and my untrained ear hears lots of shots coming from you (or the THX speaker), and I panic and decide that you are the bad guy since you might be wearing a batman costume which might resemble body armor, and shoot you while trying to do the right thing...

Through all the chaos, that may be true, but....shooting an ar15 indoors has a distinct and LOUD sound compared to a handgun. Also, if he was dumping mags or just very fast semi-auto, the muzzle flash alone from an ar15 is enough to spot the bad guy.
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      07-23-2012, 04:49 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
This situation is not one of them. I would not be surprised if the shooter chose this environment specifically for that reason. He even waited for a loud, intense action scene to do the deed....
Well, I imagine he was also quite certain there won't be other armed people, so...
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