NEEDED: InstallAtion shop in LA area: H&R SPRINGS

[dhirm5]

Originally Posted by mastek

Your H&R springs have no real-world R&D time...thats a fantasy to justify buying a cheap mod for a car so it looks cool ...and to the undoing of millions of dollars of real R&D by a world class car manufacturer.

Fact is the millions of dollars you're attributing to real world R&D on the factory springs are geared towards hitting the sweet spot between handling and comfort.

People adding spring such as H&R are implicitly trading some comfort for perceived handling and looks. The factory setup is decidedly not optimized for handling - not in the F10 M5. This is not a track car.

Personally, I wouldn't consider the KW setup on my car because it requires sacrificing the factory EDC. I am not interested in disabling any core function of my car in order to, let's face it, make it look better. Very few KW buyers are planning to track. Most that I've seen buy them to slam further than springs would allow.

I've never installed coilovers on any of my cars, but I've driven an E60 M5 on KWv3s and did find the ride to be very good. My E60 M5 was on Eibachs and while it was a bit firmer than stock, I liked how it felt and looked - and didn't consider KW, again, due to sacrificing factory EDC.

Whether it would have been faster around the 'ring on springs, coils, or the stock setup is entirely debatable, but I'd wager it would have a lot more to do with the driver than the setup at the corners.

[boots]

But yet out of his mouth BMW spent millions on this shock/spring setup and he totally disables his. go figure. Lets ignore this guy fellas. You can't teach him anything.

[greentrbo95gst]

Couple Xanax pills should fix the problem here.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by dhirm5

Fact is the millions of dollars you're attributing to real world R&D on the factory springs are geared towards hitting the sweet spot between handling and comfort.

On most BMWs, I would say YES
On M cars -- I think the bias is towards handling and Nurburgring numbers.

Originally Posted by dhirm5

People adding spring such as H&R are implicitly trading some comfort for perceived handling and looks. The factory setup is decidedly not optimized for handling - not in the F10 M5. This is not a track car.

Again, on most BMW cars I would agree.
But M cars are the only ones BMW posts official factory drivers lap times around Nurburgring, even the X5M. So saying this is not a track car is far from what BMW advertises M cars for.

Originally Posted by dhirm5

Personally, I wouldn't consider the KW setup on my car because it requires sacrificing the factory EDC. I am not interested in disabling any core function of my car in order to, let's face it, make it look better.

That's fair
However, you mention "sacrifice" and that "assumes" that losing the EDC functionality is a sacrifice against KWV3.
I've had the car for 3 months with KWV3s and not once have I reached for or even thought about the EDC button.

Originally Posted by dhirm5

Very few KW buyers are planning to track. Most that I've seen buy them to slam further than springs would allow.

Truth has been spoken.... but I never claimed or mentioned anything about KWV3 buyers mostly using it on track.
When I say your handling is compromised with H&R springs, I am applying that to the 99% of the time you will drive the car on the street.
And the only way to prove the point would be lap times, since lap times prove handling.

Originally Posted by dhirm5

I've never installed coilovers on any of my cars,

Aw man, this is not good.... not good at all.
I've had no less then 4 street cars with coilovers and 2 race cars with coilovers. So I think experience might be the key in this debate.

Originally Posted by dhirm5

but I've driven an E60 M5 on KWv3s and did find the ride to be very good. My E60 M5 was on Eibachs and while it was a bit firmer than stock, I liked how it felt and looked - and didn't consider KW, again, due to sacrificing factory EDC.

Originally Posted by dhirm5

Whether it would have been faster around the 'ring on springs, coils, or the stock setup is entirely debatable, but I'd wager it would have a lot more to do with the driver than the setup at the corners.

That goes without saying, the part about the driver and setup.
Of course it would be all things equal, same driver, same car, same track, same day. One on coilovers, one on H&R spings and one on OE suspension.... And the order they would come in is (C/O > OE > H&R).
And yes, that's debatable ... but there is alot of proof to my side.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by boots

But yet out of his mouth BMW spent millions on this shock/spring setup and he totally disables his. go figure. Lets ignore this guy fellas. You can't teach him anything.

boots
for the love of god ... relax yourself and take part in the debate ... rather then some one-sided, justification agenda that makes you feel better about your car mod choices.
Ignore this guy? Kinda like Texas ignores women's rights?

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Vic55

Are you ok sir? You seem to be quite hostile with your internet keyboard rebuttals. Do you know me or my experience with cars? I respect your thoughts and opinions but you cant tell me how I feel about my tangible experience no more than you can tell any other member.

Like I said before the springs worked for many here. We all know where your opinion lies.

Oh my Vic, what kind of debate have you gotten yourself into?

I find the entire point that this guy is trying to make to be so utterly pointless as he is referencing the F10 M5 as some sort of "super performance" machine (forgive me if I am misquoting him...same contextual meaning). As you pointed out, we are talking about a sedan that weighs 4k+ lbs. He also is directly stating that because it's an "M" that somehow BMW has allocated no thought to the development of a suspension on the F10 M5 that is geared at all towards comfort. Referencing the umpteen discussions we have had (and I believe boots and grntrbobeast have been participants in many of those with us as well) BMW has definitely made a steer towards a more "executive" driver, for lack of a better term. One who enjoys luxury and comfort, at the expense of weight, while still getting the old "mash and go" effect. In marketing, we call this being "in the center of the barbell"-not good. You end up sacrificing on both ends. It appears he is trying very hard to make a case for a track car, which I don't remember the OP mentioning, and which equally is silly with the F10 M5.

He apparently has no insight into your experience with cars, nor with mine, and I am sure a funny rebuttal will come.

The reality is that he is correct about better suitability for track with coilovers, but for most street applications the H&R are better suited. I have run both setups and experimented with different springs, including the Swift that he mentions. I have done so on my E60, F10 M5, F12 M6, 991 to name a few. Never has my performance decreased with H&R. In fact, I saw measurable increases in handling and most definitely a higher tolerance for typical road conditions (yes, we also have pretty decent roads here in GA and not often subject to detrimental weather conditions) which is especially beneficial in such a HEAVY car. The lower center of gravity no doubt plays a role as does the progressive spring rate. For comparison one evening I took out the F10 M5 on springs, the F12 M6 on springs and the new F13 M6 on OEM. BOTH the F10 M5 and the F12 out-performed the F13 on OEM with the F12 (even being a less rigid convertible) nudging out the M5. I believe this was purely a center of gravity issue and also a bit attributed to the naturally better stance/wheelbase of the F12. The improvement on my 991 is noticeable as well. No real need for PDCC yet the ride quality is great.

You honestly could not get me to ever use coilovers on a street car again. I don't personally know how much money that H&R puts into R&D but I do know that they have been at this a long time and that my experience, as well as the experiences of many others, PARTICULARLY F10 M5 owners have been great. Per many discussions, H&R finally got it REALLY right with the F10 sport springs.

F10 M5 as a track car.....yyeeeshhhh!

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by mastek

Again, on most BMW cars I would agree.
But M cars are the only ones BMW posts official factory drivers lap times around Nurburgring, even the X5M. So saying this is not a track car is far from what BMW advertises M cars for.

If you spend any time whatsoever with BMW Performance instructors they will tell you quite differently.

Originally Posted by mastek

That's fair
However, you mention "sacrifice" and that "assumes" that losing the EDC functionality is a sacrifice against KWV3.
I've had the car for 3 months with KWV3s and not once have I reached for or even thought about the EDC button.

I don't think the comment referenced only you. It was a broad statement about many owners. I never used it when I had coilovers because I couldn't. I have on all of my cars with springs. Came in handy on a moderate highway cruise Tuesday night in my California.

Originally Posted by mastek

When I say your handling is compromised with H&R springs, I am applying that to the 99% of the time you will drive the car on the street.
And the only way to prove the point would be lap times, since lap times prove handling.

Lap times prove ZERO in terms of street performance. It is not at all replicating street conditions. In fact, you can meet serious consequencse with track setups on the street with uneven surfaces and obstructions.

Originally Posted by mastek

So I think experience might be the key in this debate.

You sir are not the only one with experience. I know the guys with who you are debating and the fact that you single handedly give blanket dismissals of their opinions is quite laughable....except for Vic because well he's just odd hahahahahahahahahahaha!

[mastek]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Oh my Vic, what kind of debate have you gotten yourself into?

I find the entire point that this guy is trying to make to be so utterly pointless as he is referencing the F10 M5 as some sort of "super performance" machine (forgive me if I am misquoting him...same contextual meaning). As you pointed out, we are talking about a sedan that weighs 4k+ lbs. He also is directly stating that because it's an "M" that somehow BMW has allocated no thought to the development of a suspension on the F10 M5 that is geared at all towards comfort. Referencing the umpteen discussions we have had (and I believe boots and grntrbobeast have been participants in many of those with us as well) BMW has definitely made a steer towards a more "executive" driver, for lack of a better term. One who enjoys luxury and comfort, at the expense of weight, while still getting the old "mash and go" effect. In marketing, we call this being "in the center of the barbell"-not good. You end up sacrificing on both ends. It appears he is trying very hard to make a case for a track car, which I don't remember the OP mentioning, and which equally is silly with the F10 M5.

He apparently has no insight into your experience with cars, nor with mine, and I am sure a funny rebuttal will come.

The reality is that he is correct about better suitability for track with coilovers, but for most street applications the H&R are better suited. I have run both setups and experimented with different springs, including the Swift that he mentions. I have done so on my E60, F10 M5, F12 M6, 991 to name a few. Never has my performance decreased with H&R. In fact, I saw measurable increases in handling and most definitely a higher tolerance for typical road conditions (yes, we also have very good roads here in GA and not subject to detrimental weather conditions) which is especially beneficial in such a HEAVY car. The lower center of gravity no doubt plays a role as does the variable spring rate. For comparison one evening I took out the F10 M5 on springs, the F12 M6 on springs and the new F13 M6 on OEM. BOTH the F10 M5 and the F12 out-performed the F13 on OEM with the F12 (even being a less rigid convertible) nudging out the M5. I believe this was purely a center of gravity issue and also a bit attributed to the naturally better stance/wheelbase of the F12. The improvement on my 991 is noticeable as well. No real need for PDCC yet the ride quality is great.

You honestly could not get me to ever use coilovers on a street car again. I don't personally know how much money that H&R puts into R&D but I do know that they have been at this a long time and that my experience, as well as the experiences of many others, PARTICULARLY F10 M5 owners have been great. Per many discussions, H&R finally got it REALLY right with the F10 sport springs.

F10 M5 as a track car.....yyeeeshhhh!

Lots of nose in the air assumptions here Winthorp.
I'm sure your experience with cars is just magnanimous and I can't possibly be inclined to a discussion about how your H&R'd F10M5 would be slower around the same track using the same driver on the same day against a completely OE F10M5.
NOT because it's a track car.... but follow me here Jeeves.... because a difference in lap times using the same car, with the same power and tires and driver = suspension advantage.

So since I own and have owned and will own actual Race Cars ... I never asked the F10M5 to be a track car. Nor will I ever take it on the track. Why would I? My race car weighs 2300 lbs and has the power to weight ratio of a Ferrari 458.
But the point BMW makes by posting lap times for the F10M5 is?? Right... cause it can.... and cause it proves it's handling prowess.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Lap times prove ZERO in terms of street performance. It is not at all replicating street conditions. In fact, you can meet serious consequencse with track setups on the street with uneven surfaces and obstructions.

What??
How did you have me install a track setup suspension on an F10M5 in all that I said?

Read my text,
Your F10M5 with H&R will be slower around the same track, same driver, same car, same tires, same everything .... then the same car on OE suspension.
That means, that the OE example will handle better on the streets as well.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by mastek

What??
How did you have me install a track setup suspension on an F10M5 in all that I said?

Read my text,
Your F10M5 with H&R will be slower around the same track, same driver, same car, same tires, same everything .... then the same car on OE suspension.
That means, that the OE example will handle better on the streets as well.

Well your EXACT words were "and the only way to prove the point would be lap times, since lap times prove handling."

and prefaced by your assertion that you were talking about improving 99% on street.

Don't confuse yourself.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by ColdList

You sir are not the only one with experience. I know the guys with who you are debating and the fact that you single handedly give blanket dismissals of their opinions is quite laughable....except for Vic because well he's just odd hahahahahahahahahahaha!

WTF?? Are you talking about man?
Where was the "single-handed blanket dismissal of their opinions"
What did you read??

[mastek]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Well your EXACT words were "and the only way to prove the point would be lap times, since lap times prove handling."

and prefaced by your assertion that you were talking about improving 99% on street.

Don't confuse yourself.

Are you serious? Is this some sort of mind-fck vs. dyslexia?
I could not have been more clear --- but for the upteenth time --- and to refute what you are "claiming" I am saying vs. what I am actually saying ...here it is again:

Any F10M5 with H&R will be slower around the same track, same driver, same car, same tires, same everything .... then the same car on OE suspension.
That means, that the OE example will handle better on the streets as well.

Is there any confusion about this?
Are you a lawyer? .....Ya your a lawyer, arent you?..... I could tell by the way you twist the facts and modify the perception.... thats clever Jeeves, clever.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by mastek

Lots of nose in the air assumptions here Winthorp.
I'm sure your experience with cars is just magnanimous and I can't possibly be inclined to a discussion about how your H&R'd F10M5 would be slower around the same track using the same driver on the same day against a completely OE F10M5.
NOT because it's a track car.... but follow me here Jeeves.... because a difference in lap times using the same car, with the same power and tires and driver = suspension advantage.

Nope. Too many variables. Track proves zero. And if it did, a street driver on the track would have different results than a track driver.

Name calling now huh?-lol! At least get it right. That would be Winthorpe to you sir.

Originally Posted by mastek

So since I own and have owned and will own actual Race Cars ... I never asked the F10M5 to be a track car. Nor will I ever take it on the track. Why would I? My race car weighs 2300 lbs and has the power to weight ratio of a Ferrari 458.

"Race cars huh"? So what kind of "race cars" do you actually have? I have to assume that we are likely talking old M3s on springs. Correct? I think I am right...could be wrong...no, I think I am right.

Originally Posted by mastek

But the point BMW makes by posting lap times for the F10M5 is?? Right... cause it can.... and cause it proves it's handling prowess.

You forgot to add the "...for a 4,300 lb car."-lol!

Originally Posted by greentrbo95gst

Couple Xanax pills should fix the problem here.

Hahahahaha! So silly how worked up guys like this get. I love it.

[Vic55]

It appears that what some are typing are not read the same and vice a versa.

Mastek I read your posts (intent or not) as you are the expert and that anyone who chose H&R is an idiot (dont say "where did I say anyone was an idiot"). Its not always what one says but how others infer it. You asked Boots to take a proper role in the debate and not a one sided justification about his choice... maybe you should take that same approach.

I know you will quite possibly read this wrong and retort in some fashion. I was happy with my M5 H&R springs while I owned the car. I could care less about Nurburgring times and what BMW's intent was regarding that track. I love the car for its driveability and power on the streets where 95% of the M5 owners use their cars.

[greentrbo95gst]

.....or maybe bi-polar medication.
Just drop it, refer the OP to a shop you had good experience with and in your head think that F10M5 is a track monster, KW's $hit dont stink, and H&R's are just oem springs cut by kids in Ethiopia. Deal?
This is pointless.

[greentrbo95gst]

On a different note, keep on going. I wanna catch RPIDave's post count.

[pochesq]

OP. I along with numerous others have had the H&R springs installed at Trinity Auto Sports in Santa Ana, CA.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by greentrbo95gst

H&R's are just oem springs cut by kids in Ethiopia.

You are kidding me! I thought all along that H&R stood for Hungarian and Russian!

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by pochesq

OP. I along with numerous others have had the H&R springs installed at Trinity Auto Sports in Santa Ana, CA.

Excellent referral. I live too far to visit personally but I have heard stellar reviews and my purchasing experiences with them have been absolutely superb! Plus, they USE the products themselves. You want an expert opinion other than those silly ones from us goofballs then call Trinity. Ask for Nerwyll.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by Vic55

It appears that what some are typing are not read the same and vice a versa.

Mastek I read your posts (intent or not) as you are the expert and that anyone who chose H&R is an idiot (dont say "where did I say anyone was an idiot"). Its not always what one says but how others infer it. You asked Boots to take a proper role in the debate and not a one sided justification about his choice... maybe you should take that same approach.

I know you will quite possibly read this wrong and retort in some fashion. I was happy with my M5 H&R springs while I owned the car. I could care less about Nurburgring times and what BMW's intent was regarding that track. I love the car for its driveability and power on the streets where 95% of the M5 owners use their cars.

How could I read this wrong?
Except for the fact that I'm not "inferring" that anyone who buys H&R is an idiot.
I am "suggesting" that you might have a worse handling car then OE with them.

I know you could care less about Nurburgring times -- but that's not why BMW spends millions to post those lap times and tests every M car there.
Not because YOU dont care. But for those that DO. And those that do, buy the cars for that little bit of prestige as well.
And great lap times on a bumpy, curvy stretch like the Nordschleife means the car handles VERY well on the streets and on track.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Vic55

(dont say "where did I say anyone was an idiot").

Originally Posted by mastek

I'm not "infering" (not a word) that anyone who buys H&R is an idiot.

He couldn't resist.

[greentrbo95gst]

Originally Posted by ColdList

You are kidding me! I thought all along that H&R stood for Hungarian and Russian!

They do have sweat shops in Hungary and Russia, no?