Does your M5 need a kick up its arse?

[SteveC]

Traded an M135i for a new 2015 M5 CP which has just had its 1200 mile running in service.

Off the line the M5 feels pretty quick but when cruising at near the general speed limit its a different story. In the M135i any whiff of gas and it was away....always in the right gear and instantly ready for a sprint. It felt fast. The M5 is a different beast altogether. It feels lazy. Give it a little gas at speed and nothing much happens. You've got to boot its ass to get it to downshift and sprint. At first I thought it was down to the comfort map and a D1 gearbox setting, so I tried switching it to M1 and M2 (D3 and Sport+ throttle map) when I wanted rapid acceleration. I expected instant reactions like the M135i but nope....same requirement for a boot full of throttle.

As a consequence, the M5 feels remarkably swift when booting it or from standstill, but otherwise a bit reticent and lazy and certainly not instantly responsive like the little 1 Series.
Could it be that the gearbox is adaptive and has learned to avoid kick down due to some fairly sedate running in driving? In its performance the M135i felt entirely linear and damned fast. In the M5, when accelerating from speed it feels a bit like the M135i did in eco-plus mode....somewhat numb to the throttle. I never used Eco-Plus in the 135 because the car became entirely non-responsive, whereas Comfort was dynamite. For the most part I rarely needed Sport or Sport+

So you know exactly what I'm talking about, imagine you're on cruise control at 65mph and want to overtake something. You put your foot on the gas and ease down but nothing much happens until you find the right point on the throttle to cause acceleration.

I have to say that up to this point, as a driver's car the M5 feels rapid and highly sophisticated, but the M135i had a lot more Freude am Fahren and instantly available performance. I hope I didn't make a mistake trading it for the full fat M car

[drbru]

cant say I agree with this....

However.....

Im always in m mode ie never in automatic and hence the paddles are always there for me to ensure Im in the gear I want to be in and the power is always there!

[SteveC]

In the M135i the 8 speed auto was always 1 step ahead of you. Always in the right gear or able to downshift instantly. In the M5, auto feels like its several steps behind in its reticence to downshift. Journalists always report the F10 M5 gearbox as a highlight, which seems a real contradiction to my experience so far.

When cruising in the M135, it could be at lazy revs but the desired amount of instantaneous acceleration was always just an eye blink away. You would describe it as linear and highly responsive
Driving the M5 the same way, a small increase in gas results in very little...and even a fairly large increase is underwhelming. Taking off from standstill you've got a tiger by the tail but drive at 65 for any distance and it all goes quiet....like 500 horses sleeping.
Clearly I can drive it in manual but with so much horsepower and low down torque I'm wondering why the response becomes so underwhelming once cruising in auto. I was hoping I was getting a far more edgy and responsive car than the M135i but so far that appears not to be the case.
Hopefully its down to the gearbox adjusting its shift pattern to my undemanding style of driving during running in....hopefully

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by SteveC

In the M135i the 8 speed auto was always 1 step ahead of you. Always in the right gear or able to downshift instantly. In the M5, auto feels like its several steps behind in its reticence to downshift. Journalists always report the F10 M5 gearbox as a highlight, which seems a real contradiction to my experience so far.

When cruising in the M135, it could be at lazy revs but the desired amount of instantaneous acceleration was always just an eye blink away. You would describe it as linear and highly responsive
Driving the M5 the same way, a small increase in gas results in very little...and even a fairly large increase is underwhelming. Taking off from standstill you've got a tiger by the tail but drive at 65 for any distance and it all goes quiet....like 500 horses sleeping.
Clearly I can drive it in manual but with so much horsepower and low down torque I'm wondering why the response becomes so underwhelming once cruising in auto. I was hoping I was getting a far more edgy and responsive car than the M135i but so far that appears not to be the case.
Hopefully its down to the gearbox adjusting its shift pattern to my undemanding style of driving during running in....hopefully

In my opinion, I think it's just you and your "feeling."
Granted I will give you this. There is in fact some turbo lag, although not a huge amount, due the cats. If you drive my M5 with Catless Downpipes and full exhaust and in D3 mode on the highway, the DCT "kicks down" as you say, faster than instantaneously and the cars throttle response and initial acceleration feels like engine is naturally aspirated. Whenever I get a chance to drive another F10 M5 with the stock downpipes, I'm always surprised at how much I can tell the difference in throttle response and acceleration.

However, I still think that in throttle Sport Plus mode with the stock downpipes, the initial acceleration and response is quite astonishing for a turbo charged car with a large displacement engine.

[Wills2]

Can't say I feel the same way, I've just come from a 335d xdrive with the ZF8 and the M5 feels like a rocket ship compared to that even during the running in period.

[SteveC]

I would really appreciate the next time you're out, take your M5 to say 65 MPH (or thereabouts), cruise for a while at steady speed then give it a little extra gas, like you wanted to pass someone quickly but without hitting 90. The M135i would be immediately up on its toes, accelerating as the pedal moved in a linear fashion. The M5 seems to hardly notice, which I find quite disconcerting, given the torque and HP on tap.

[eleven11]

I'm with RPiM5 about this being a feeling. From a cruising speed (e.g.60mph), your M5 can take/hang with about any vehicle on the road, if you mash the accelerator. If you're not wanting to mash the accelerator, it will still pick up speed at an incredible rate. It might not feel like it, but just look at your speedometer. 60-90 can be achieved with a rather mild push of the pedal, without a significant visceral anger. 60-120 happens with the blink of an eye, if you want. Its power response is going to be more of a deep wave of energy, versus that kick of power you're describing. If you learn the best RPM ranges, you can reproduce that feeling you desire with manual M3 or D3 modes.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by eleven11

I'm with RPiM5 about this being a feeling. From a cruising speed (e.g.60mph), your M5 can take/hang with about any vehicle on the road, if you mash the accelerator. If you're not wanting to mash the accelerator, it will still pick up speed at an incredible rate. It might not feel like it, but just look at your speedometer. 60-90 can be achieved with a rather mild push of the pedal, without a significant visceral anger. 60-120 happens with the blink of an eye, if you want. Its power response is going to be more of a deep wave of energy, versus that kick of power you're describing. If you learn the best RPM ranges, you can reproduce that feeling you desire with manual M3 or D3 modes.

Eleven11 alludes to something I should have thought of earlier.

That lack of "feeling" may be due to the non-performance side of the car. I'm taking about the luxury of the vehicle. If you drive almost any other car back to back with an M5/M6 you will feel like the car may be faster because you can hear more outside noise, feel more vibrations through the road, etc.. We know that a 135i is poorly insulated with no premium materials used in the cabin, same with an Alfa Romeo 4C, same with a Subaru, heck even the same with the F80 M3. All of those cars have considerably less insulation than a 5 or 7 series. I was once told that driving a BAC Mono at 40mph feels like a 100mph. Maybe that's your problem. You are just not used to luxury.

[Yeru]

I had similar perceptions to the OP in my transition from 335i 6MT with PPK to '13 M3 ZCP 6MT. Torque was effortlessly on-tap in 5th or 6th gear, and I too, initially wondered whether I made the right choice.
Over time I became better acquainted with the M's linear torque curve and how to better manage it to achieve the desired results.
OP, I think as you gradually adapt your driving style to your M's personality, fond memories of your old M135i will fade very quickly. Mine did.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I would really appreciate the next time you're out, take your M5 to say 65 MPH (or thereabouts), cruise for a while at steady speed then give it a little extra gas, like you wanted to pass someone quickly but without hitting 90. The M135i would be immediately up on its toes, accelerating as the pedal moved in a linear fashion. The M5 seems to hardly notice, which I find quite disconcerting, given the torque and HP on tap.

would you try this one:
Set it up to sport or sport+ on throttle/ D2 or D3 on transmission
at highway speed (60-65) just mash the gas (pass the kickdown point) and let us know how you feel...
On a side note, M5 is much heavier than M135 (900-1000 lb); so basically you don't feel that much acceleration; however indeed there is that much acceleration out there

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

would you try this one:
Set it up to sport or sport+ on throttle/ D2 or D3 on transmission
at highway speed (60-65) just mash the gas (pass the kickdown point) and let us know how you feel...
On a side note, M5 is much heavier than M135 (900-1000 lb); so basically you don't feel that much acceleration; however indeed there is that much acceleration out there

Yes, cleary its a fast as all hell when you mash the gas pedal to the floor and wait. Or when you take off from standstill and rev it through the gears. But once the revs fall to anything less than 2000 its numb. Starting from under 2000 I'm actually scared to overtake cars because its nowhere near as fast as my M135i at anything less than full gas and full kickdown, which I incidentally almost never used in the M135i
It goes like hell from standstill through the gears and it goes like hell when it kicks down at full throttle, but accelerating at part throttle from a steady a 50 or 60 I would think a 330d is quicker, in fact I'm sure it is. And that makes it relatively slow point to point unless you're keeping it one or two gears higher than I used in the 1 Series.

I think I'm going to take it back to the dealers and ask them to check it out, because I'm seriously not enjoying its all or nothing performance.

[variable229]

Originally Posted by SteveC

It goes like hell from standstill through the gears and it goes like hell when it kicks down at full throttle, but accelerating at part throttle from a steady a 50 or 60 I would think a 330d is quicker, in fact I'm sure it is. And that makes it relatively slow point to point unless you're keeping it one or two gears higher than I used in the 1 Series.

I think I'm going to take it back to the dealers and ask them to check it out, because I'm seriously not enjoying its all or nothing performance.

If you are not redlining the M5, you are driving this car wrong. One of the things you'll see some of the BMW M school drivers do is near redline every shift during acceleration to peak out the hp/torque.

Are you really looking for a car that delivers torque early? You should have bought a Tesla P85D, I hear it makes 850 lbs.

[SocalBM]

Uh, it's just you. Your "feels" might tell you the 1 series is faster, but it's not.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Yes, cleary its a fast as all hell when you mash the gas pedal to the floor and wait. Or when you take off from standstill and rev it through the gears. But once the revs fall to anything less than 2000 its numb. Starting from under 2000 I'm actually scared to overtake cars because its nowhere near as fast as my M135i at anything less than full gas and full kickdown, which I incidentally almost never used in the M135i
It goes like hell from standstill through the gears and it goes like hell when it kicks down at full throttle, but accelerating at part throttle from a steady a 50 or 60 I would think a 330d is quicker, in fact I'm sure it is. And that makes it relatively slow point to point unless you're keeping it one or two gears higher than I used in the 1 Series.

I think I'm going to take it back to the dealers and ask them to check it out, because I'm seriously not enjoying its all or nothing performance.

Sorry buddy but dealer cannot help you. This is the way S63tu is designed. The torque curve has a jump at 1500 RPM which is about 200-300 RPM higher than M135 (1200-1300) so basically you need to keep the RPM higher than 1500 to have maximum torque Upto 5750 (1000 -1200 RPM higher than M135 which is 4500)... I believe in case of 330d the maximum torque is available between 1500-3000 RPM.
It's interesting that many people are either complaining or happy with the huge amount of torque at lower RPM of current M cars (S55 and S63tu) but you I have a feeling if this torque monster had max torque available at 1000 RPM then nobody could get it moved from standstill or drive it on street
This is a DD car not a race or drag car...

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Yes, cleary its a fast as all hell when you mash the gas pedal to the floor and wait. Or when you take off from standstill and rev it through the gears. But once the revs fall to anything less than 2000 its numb. Starting from under 2000 I'm actually scared to overtake cars because its nowhere near as fast as my M135i at anything less than full gas and full kickdown, which I incidentally almost never used in the M135i
It goes like hell from standstill through the gears and it goes like hell when it kicks down at full throttle, but accelerating at part throttle from a steady a 50 or 60 I would think a 330d is quicker, in fact I'm sure it is. And that makes it relatively slow point to point unless you're keeping it one or two gears higher than I used in the 1 Series.

I think I'm going to take it back to the dealers and ask them to check it out, because I'm seriously not enjoying its all or nothing performance.

Honestly I don't recognise the car you're describing, I've only had my M5 for 2 weeks (it gets the running in service tomorrow)

I've come to the M5 from the following e46 M3-e92 M3-997.2 C2S-e92 M3-335d xdrive and I've never driven anything with the grunt and power the M5 has, nothing.

I've driven the M135i and it simply doesn't compare on any level with the M5 these things have over 500ft/lb from almost tickover and rumour has it nearly 600hp stock.

I'm used to quick cars but this is on another level, the way it takes off in any gear at any speed is incredible, I think there must be an issue with your car.

To be honest the 330d quote is a bit laughable my last car was 335d and the M5 makes that feel like an asthmatic hamster and will go to 100mph in half the time it takes a 330d, it wouldn't have a chance in any gear at any speed, I'd be rejecting my car if I were you.

[Bigmuz7]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I think I'm going to take it back to the dealers and ask them to check it out, because I'm seriously not enjoying its all or nothing performance.

Had V8's and BM's for years but first M5 .. to me, it has an adaptive gearbox, and I learned a trick when I had an Audi S6 with the same problem .. drive it slow for ages, and you are not going to get a fast response from the box .. the reason is .. your wife might be driving .. If on the other hand its you driving and you stab the loud pedal with out needing it, then stab it again .. you should get what you are looking for .. all auto boxes are different, and this one has many different shift patterns and settings (I'm still learning it ... a DCT is awesome ) but the M5 when you master it, is a beast from hell

[SteveC]

I'm driving along at 60 mph in 7th and put my foot down...not to the floor but a significant way. What happens? Not a great deal. It doesn't downshift, the revs don't really start to climb and the speedo barely moves. In this situation, it doesn't feel like a high performance car. It feels like a manual would feel if you put your foot down in 6th and your car is way out of its power band.

In the same situation the M135i would downshift before you could blink an eye and be off up the road in a series of rapid fire upshifts. Not terribly hard hard to tell the difference

I'm pretty sure the M5 didn't feel like this before its 1200 mile service so I'm wondering if something has been reset or reprogrammed or alternatively if the recent cold weather, low traction and corresponding careful driving has caused the adaptive gearbox to chose a minimal downshift profile

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I'm pretty sure the M5 didn't feel like this before its 1200 mile service so I'm wondering if something has been reset or reprogrammed

Now you're worrying me Steve! The car is electric at the moment even though I'm being gentle (ish) so much so that I started to wonder if they would mess it up some how at the running in service. (daft I know)

Can I ask did they or did you ask for any software updates etc....

[SteveC]

No I didn't ask for any SW updates and the service was done while I waited so it really wasn't there very long.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I'm driving along at 60 mph in 7th and put my foot down...not to the floor but a significant way. What happens? Not a great deal. It doesn't downshift, the revs don't really start to climb and the speedo barely moves. In this situation, it doesn't feel like a high performance car. It feels like a manual would feel if you put your foot down in 6th and your car is way out of its power band.

In the same situation the M135i would downshift before you could blink an eye and be off up the road in a series of rapid fire upshifts. Not terribly hard hard to tell the difference

I'm pretty sure the M5 didn't feel like this before its 1200 mile service so I'm wondering if something has been reset or reprogrammed or alternatively if the recent cold weather, low traction and corresponding careful driving has caused the adaptive gearbox to chose a minimal downshift profile

Buddy, that's exactly what I was referring but looks like you didn't get my point. The point I was trying to make is "Shift point" which has to be set by Drivelogic of DCT
Here is what you have to do if you really want to enjoy your car:
1. Set M1 or M2 to Sport+/D3
2. Drive at 60-70 or whatever you want and let gear goes to 7th while M1(2) is selected.
3. Depress the gas but not to the kickdown point.

Or

1. Put it in any setting you want (except Sequential mode) including the softest setting (Efficient/D1)
2. Drive at 60-70 or whatever you want and let gear goes to 7th.
3. Floor the gas and pass the kickdown point.

In both case you will feel hard acceleration how ever in second case if you have softest setting you will feel some delay which is turbo lag

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by SteveC

No I didn't ask for any SW updates and the service was done while I waited so it really wasn't there very long.

Hmmm, maybe see if they will swap back for the M135?

M cars are different to the rest of the range and do need a little bit of effort/thought to get the best out of, they're not for everyone.

[MCarsFan]

Get a remap if you aren't happy. I actually agree with your description but I think it's a combination of a 4300lb car and the DCT setup. With the remap its quite a phenomenal car and it feels much more responsive.. that said its a monster in the wet with all the low down torque.