Chris Harris Drives: BMW M5 30 Jahre vs Lexus GS F (Video)

doug_999 · 02-25-2017, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Law

Nope, actually, you got it reversed.
The thing on the right...that's turbo lag

Sigh...
Most LEDs, at least those powered by AC current have a much longer delay in turning on. Google it. Or put them in your house. Powered by DC current? Different story if done right - but a terrible analogy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Law

It's not the same thing.
Having predictability & full control of the throttle is important in enthusiastic driving.

Yes, no wonder they are not used in Formula One racing... wait a minute...they are...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Law

Well, we may have buried this horse a few times here.
But 'twas a good discussion, even if you still have a few things misunderstood

Yes, obviously

PS - have you really driven a modern day turbo? Something tells me you have not. My turbo cars all have predictability, and weird as it sounds, I seem to have full control of the damn throttle? So, I'm kind of at a loss as to what you drove to get these impressions.

I will say this - a NA car almost always sounds better.

Law · 02-25-2017, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug_999

Sigh...
Most LEDs, at least those powered by AC current have a much longer delay in turning on. Google it. Or put them in your house. Powered by DC current? Different story if done right - but a terrible analogy.

I'm not an electrical engineer but everything I've read and seen in person point to the fact that LEDs achieve full brightness noticeably faster than a conventional bulb. Perhaps my analogy was in reference to DC currents then

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug_999

Yes, no wonder they are not used in Formula One racing... wait a minute...they are...

NA engines were used exclusively for a long time before they had to make turbos mandatory for political correctness (i.e., give the impression that F1 is an environmentally conscious sport

).

Yes I know there was also a turbo era back then, but...LAG...

It's funny because BMW M from yesteryear refused to implement turbos in their street cars because of this very reason. To them then, a high-revving engine with individual throttles reflected more of the character and powerband of a contemporary F1 engine. There are tons of literature and interviews on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug_999

Yes, obviously

PS - have you really driven a modern day turbo? Something tells me you have not. My turbo cars all have predictability, and weird as it sounds, I seem to have full control of the damn throttle? So, I'm kind of at a loss as to what you drove to get these impressions.

I will say this - a NA car almost always sounds better.

Actually I have. N20/N26/N54/N55/S55. I've driven them all except for N63/S63. Like I said, admittedly, on a daily basis, they [turbo engines] provide more "accessible" and "usable" fun, but I'm still biased toward NA engines for the reasons i've already enumerated. Yes, sound is a big part of it, but actually, I also enjoy revving out an engine. I realize by now I'm probably an oddball, but it's more enjoyable than a "lazy" powerband that doesn't require an engine to work hard.

I know I'm not going to convince you, and I'm not trying to, nor are you going to convince me otherwise, but while I like a good turbo engine, and BMW overall has done a good job, it doesn't mean I prefer them over their previous NA offerings.

mister2d · 02-25-2017, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Law

I'm not an electrical engineer but everything I've read and seen in person point to the fact that LEDs achieve full brightness noticeably faster than a conventional bulb. Perhaps my analogy was in reference to DC currents then

NA engines were used exclusively for a long time before they had to make turbos mandatory for political correctness (i.e., give the impression that F1 is an environmentally conscious sport

).

Yes I know there was also a turbo era back then, but...LAG...

It's funny because BMW M from yesteryear refused to implement turbos in their street cars because of this very reason. To them then, a high-revving engine with individual throttles reflected more of the character and powerband of a contemporary F1 engine. There are tons of literature and interviews on this.

Actually I have. N20/N26/N54/N55/S55. I've driven them all except for N63/S63. Like I said, admittedly, on a daily basis, they [turbo engines] provide more "accessible" and "usable" fun, but I'm still biased toward NA engines for the reasons i've already enumerated. Yes, sound is a big part of it, but actually, I also enjoy revving out an engine. I realize by now I'm probably an oddball, but it's more enjoyable than a "lazy" powerband that doesn't require an engine to work hard.

I know I'm not going to convince you, and I'm not trying to, nor are you going to convince me otherwise, but while I like a good turbo engine, and BMW overall has done a good job, it doesn't mean I prefer them over their previous NA offerings.

FWIW I get what you're saying about turbo lag, and I agree.

When I drive our 750 vs my F10 M5 there is a bit of jealousy I get with regards to throttle response. It is literally instant on the 750 whereas it's some delay on my M5. I really wish that wasn't the case.

I'm not sure how one gets low end torque confused with throttle response. Not the same thing at all. You could get a big lump of torque in the low end range but it's very different from a linear response from the NA engine. Neck snapping torque isn't the same as throttle response.

Phatcat · 02-26-2017, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Law

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug_999

Don't need to try... your "throttle response" comes at 4K+, mine comes at 1.5K+. You must drive at high RPMs all the time so have a different "understanding" of throttle response.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/fiat/...r-s-toyota-86/

"Associate editor Scott Evans said the engine was smooth and extremely responsive, and the steering was precise."

PS - and yes, this is a dig... I lusted for a E90 M3... and when the dealer finally sold their blue M3, I picked up the 1M. I assure you, the 1M puts a smile on my face 7/8ths of the time driving it - vs. what I expect the E90 M3 would have done (1/8th). That engine is like my old E60 M5 - torqueless (worse actually) and no fun whatsoever until the RPMs are way up there. That doesn't work for me. Sure, on the track it is probably very nice - but I just don't drive on that daily, weekly... crap, even monthly...

You're still talking about low-end torque, which is not the same as throttle response. Nobody is disputing that a comparable turbocharged engine is torquier down-low than a high-revving NA engine.

In an NA engine, the throttle response is the same at any RPM, because when the throttle opens, the air is combusted instantaneously.
The driver gets 100% of the power and torque at a given RPM @ WOT as soon as the throttle is activated.
In a turbo engine, there is a lag in the delivery of power & torque at a given RPM @ WOT. The air is combusted sans boost and the turbine is not spinning until there is enough exhaust gases to bring the turbine up to full speed to deliver 100% of the power/torque @ a given RPM.
It doesn't matter how minuscule the lag is, it is always there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elitex

I really don't think you understand what Law is talking about. Even the best of turbo engines are not as responsive as their NA counterparts, period. There's always the bit of rubber band feeling when the torque kicks in. Some doing it more noticeably than the others. Yes, this is the new norm, and yes turbo engines are much more useable everyday.

I've gone back and fourth between Turbo and non-turbo engines and end up lusting after the one I don't have. Best case scenario is to buy both types. Problem solved.

I am thinking Huracan performante and an M3. Perfect combo.

The rubber band feeling is exactly what i'm talking about.
Yes, in daily driving, it may be a moot point, as many may prefer a powerband that maximizes torque at low RPM, but for a nice weekend drive or track driving, there is little that can replace the feeling of instantaneous response of the throttle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phatcat

I think they have different opinion on what is responsiveness. What exactly is throttle responsiveness? Are they talking about technical terms or what a driver would feel?

Most of NA engines has low torque at low rpm, so unless you are always at high rpm, NA engines can feel sluggish to a typical driver.

Meanwhile, modern turbo engine provides gobs of torque at low rpm, can get the car moving much more quickly than a NA engine. So on the street, where keeping the car at high rpm is nearly impossible, a well designed turbo car can feel more responsive to throttle input.

Turbo engines has gotten a lot better and will only get better since it is now at the center of engine development due to tougher emission laws for most of the car manufacturers. And also, we drive the car, not just the engine. Clever engineers will (and have) design other supplementary technology such as electric motor to help combat turbo lag and improve throttle responsiveness. That's why I said earlier that it is not inconceivable that a turbo engine or car will eventually have the good characteristics of a NA engine in every way and you won't be able to tell the difference.

Think of it this way.
The throttle of an NA engine is like an LED lightbulb. The light is activated instantly. It may be just a small LED, but it reaches full illumination right away and without delay.
One is in full control of how and when the light is activated and the lighting element is focused and sharp.
The throttle of a turbo engine is like a large incandescent lightbulb. While this large incandescent lightbulb may have a larger ray of light at full brightness than a single LED bulb, there is a noticeable delay between the time it takes from "off" to full illumination and the light is not as focused or sharp.

That's the difference.

That's why I think you two are arguing on two different fronts. One is talking about NA vs Turbo on technical terms, while the other is talking more of how a driver would feel.

I'm not confused between what low down torque and throttle response is, I'm simply saying low down torque may blur people's perception of what throttle response is.

soooma · 02-26-2017, 01:35 AM

Didn't care for review

ur20v · 02-26-2017, 04:59 AM

Chris is spot on with his comments on the lack of traction th F10 M5 has especially when tuned.

Fundguy1 · 02-26-2017, 06:12 AM

So the bmw is better in every way except on a snowy bumpy welsh road. Go figure. I don't expect to be on many of those living in central Florida.

josec70 · 02-26-2017, 08:56 AM

LOL

Blackraven · 02-26-2017, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

So the bmw is better in every way except on a snowy bumpy welsh road. Go figure. I don't expect to be on many of those living in central Florida.

In terms of power, the M5 is the victor here. The Lexus might have had a chance if it had at least 500 HP.

That said:
The Lexus wins in the exhust sound category. The Yamaha-tuned engine soundtrack can't be ignored.

NA > Turbo when it comes to stock exhaust sound

Fundguy1 · 02-26-2017, 12:47 PM

Ok so exhaust note and slush driving =Lexus winner
Power, ergonomics, looks, room, handling, dry flat driving, corners, highway driving, range, =BMW winner. That and you can add an exhaust to the BMW... Hmmmm

Blackraven · 02-26-2017, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Ok so exhaust note and slush driving =Lexus winner
Power, ergonomics, looks, room, handling, dry flat driving, corners, highway driving, range,

Oh and something to add in favor of the Lexus: RELIABILITY =)

Quote:

That and you can add an exhaust to the BMW... Hmmmm

You can as option but imho, the car should already have decent sounding exhaust direct from the factory.

Maybe BMW should take a page from Audi and MB on how to improve the exhaust sound of their factory exhaust

M6-Coupe · 02-26-2017, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Quote:

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Agreed with road comments but disagreed with M5 comments.
F10 M5 is not designed for drift only and e-diff (Active M Differential ) is one of the best LSD out there but you can not repeal the laws of physic. With that said you can turn off the DSC and go for a complete scary drift if you are skilled enough person and still drive the car as a monster highway cruiser to beat almost every single car including exotic cars at rolling over 100 km/h or 60 mph. In case of 0-60 this is obvious AWD car has much better performance than a powerful RWD with frontward weight distribution. I admit M5/M6 have difficulty putting the power down but again this is the law of physic. I have the same issue putting the power down with my current M4 CP if I want to turn the DSC OFF. Almost the same issue I had with my M6 you are referring too...
There are some high light with M5 that we have to admit. DCT, Differential, Engine beside the suspension and comfortale seats are the main ones...

Quite a few magazine review complained that the M5 has power that the chassis can't handle. There are RWD cars out there with even more power and lighter weight that doesn't receive the same complaint. So I do believe there are some truths to that the F10 M5 has trouble putting the power down, that it could have been engineered better even in RWD form, maybe with something like four wheel steering, rear wheel steering whatever they call it.

SA said that the chassis has not kept up with the power development.

But it's a 2012 car, I'm sure BMW has learned a lot since then and will improve upon the weakness of the F10 M5.

You said there are cars...
Like what? Which car ?

raysspl · 02-26-2017, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amw896

The new Lexus cars are storybook examples of what happens when you let accountants build dream cars instead of real engineers.

Having studied & practice both accounting & engineering, that statement never gets old because it's true

Eddien123 · 02-27-2017, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeroSix

I always respected the IS-F but would have chosen the E90 M3 over it every time. Same goes for this, I do like that it is N/A, but for that price I'll go for a fully loaded F80.

I agree. I wish BMW was the one does the NA stuff. Respect Lexus for it no doubt but for that kind of money... I couldn't ignore the m3/4

elitex · 02-27-2017, 06:39 AM

But but but. Let's be honest here. Lexus isn't doing NA these days because it's more fun, it's just cheaper for them. They are using the same engine they built over 10 years ago.

Developing a performance turbo engine will cost them a lot of money. I'm sure they will soon. You can already see turbo engines creep up in their regular lineup.

Phatcat · 02-27-2017, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Quote:

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Agreed with road comments but disagreed with M5 comments.
F10 M5 is not designed for drift only and e-diff (Active M Differential ) is one of the best LSD out there but you can not repeal the laws of physic. With that said you can turn off the DSC and go for a complete scary drift if you are skilled enough person and still drive the car as a monster highway cruiser to beat almost every single car including exotic cars at rolling over 100 km/h or 60 mph. In case of 0-60 this is obvious AWD car has much better performance than a powerful RWD with frontward weight distribution. I admit M5/M6 have difficulty putting the power down but again this is the law of physic. I have the same issue putting the power down with my current M4 CP if I want to turn the DSC OFF. Almost the same issue I had with my M6 you are referring too...
There are some high light with M5 that we have to admit. DCT, Differential, Engine beside the suspension and comfortale seats are the main ones...

Quite a few magazine review complained that the M5 has power that the chassis can't handle. There are RWD cars out there with even more power and lighter weight that doesn't receive the same complaint. So I do believe there are some truths to that the F10 M5 has trouble putting the power down, that it could have been engineered better even in RWD form, maybe with something like four wheel steering, rear wheel steering whatever they call it.

SA said that the chassis has not kept up with the power development.

But it's a 2012 car, I'm sure BMW has learned a lot since then and will improve upon the weakness of the F10 M5.

You said there are cars...
Like what? Which car ?

Do your own research M6 Coupe.

Fundguy1 · 02-27-2017, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Do your own research M6 Coupe.

Corvette, viper, camaro... Hellcat cars if you swap tires.

M6-Coupe · 02-27-2017, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Do your own research M6 Coupe.

Haha... I did but couldn't find any... help me my friend

carrera2RSL · 02-28-2017, 02:21 PM

I like Chris Harris but....

Sorry Chris my CP M5 is not too stiff for me, I don't want to drive a wallowy boat even if it's quicker. I want something stiffer and ha ve moved to Dinan coils and just picked up some KW V3's. As for interiors ergonomically dreadful and aesthetically worse, no comparison for me. Yes I'd prefer zero turbo lag and NA but the compromise is less performance and low torque in the case of a 5 I'll take the turbo. My E39 was stellar aurally with a Kelleners exhaust but slower.... As for looks, the M5 looks too tame for what it can do but the Lexus IS bloody awful, period.

Chris, Mate I know the Lexus IS quirky but anything that ugly with that amount of poorly thought through Engineering solutions will be quirky. Charm and Charisma is the domain of the Italians not the Asians

mister2d · 02-28-2017, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrera2RSL

I like Chris Harris but....

Sorry Chris my CP M5 is not too stiff for me, I don't want to drive a wallowy boat even if it's quicker. I want something stiffer and ha ve moved to Dinan coils and just picked up some KW V3's. As for interiors ergonomically dreadful and aesthetically worse, no comparison for me. Yes I'd prefer zero turbo lag and NA but the compromise is less performance and low torque in the case of a 5 I'll take the turbo. My E39 was stellar aurally with a Kelleners exhaust but slower.... As for looks, the M5 looks too tame for what it can do but the Lexus IS bloody awful, period.

Chris, Mate I know the Lexus IS quirky but anything that ugly with that amount of poorly thought through Engineering solutions will be quirky. Charm and Charisma is the domain of the Italians not the Asians

Plenty of Asians have charisma. Sung Kang immediately comes to mind. No need to be an elitist prick.

carrera2RSL · 02-28-2017, 03:49 PM

RAUH-Welt Begriff has charisma too but neither are car manufacturers. I was going to say with respect but I won't. My comments were related to car manufacturers and in quirky cars. Worry not I'm not in any way racist and no offence was meant. More than I can say for your comment.

mister2d · 02-28-2017, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrera2RSL

RAUH-Welt Begriff has charisma too but neither are car manufacturers. I was going to say with respect but I won't. My comments were related to car manufacturers and in quirky cars. Worry not I'm not in any way racist and no offence was meant. More than I can say for your comment.

"Elitist prick" has no relation to race. You were the only one to throw out the slur.

02-26-2017, 01:35 AM	#71
soooma ///MD 1378 Rep 3,998 Posts Drives: M5 F90 Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: NC iTrader: (1)	Didn't care for review
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02-26-2017, 04:59 AM	#72
ur20v Captain 184 Rep 788 Posts Drives: F10 M5 Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: WA Australia iTrader: (0)	Chris is spot on with his comments on the lack of traction th F10 M5 has especially when tuned.
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02-26-2017, 06:12 AM	#73
Fundguy1 Major General 2032 Rep 8,339 Posts Drives: 335 e93 Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Orlando, fl iTrader: (0)	So the bmw is better in every way except on a snowy bumpy welsh road. Go figure. I don't expect to be on many of those living in central Florida.
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02-26-2017, 08:56 AM	#74
josec70 Major General 4074 Rep 5,233 Posts Drives: 22' Individual Chalk M5C Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Miami iTrader: (2)	LOL __________________ CURRENT: 22' INDIVIDUAL M5\| CHALK \| TARTUFO \| CCB \| MPE \| H&R \| IND GONE: 19' M5C\| SINGAPORE GREY\| ARAGON\|VELOS VLS-06\|H&R\|iPE\|IND\|XPEL\|CF\|RADENSO GONE: 15' F10 M5\|BSM\|BLACK\|VELOS VSS-S2\|KW\|AKRA\|IND\|CF \|ESCORT 360\|VELOS PIGGY GONE: 13' F10 M5\|SG\|BLACK\|AKRA\|KW\|IND LONG GONE: 09' E60 M5\|02' E39 M5
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02-26-2017, 12:47 PM	#76
Fundguy1 Major General 2032 Rep 8,339 Posts Drives: 335 e93 Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Orlando, fl iTrader: (0)	Ok so exhaust note and slush driving =Lexus winner Power, ergonomics, looks, room, handling, dry flat driving, corners, highway driving, range, =BMW winner. That and you can add an exhaust to the BMW... Hmmmm
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02-27-2017, 06:39 AM	#81
elitex . 1231 Rep 1,918 Posts Drives: 22 M8C Coupe, 21 X5MC Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Atlanta iTrader: (0) Garage List 2020 Mercedes C63S ... [0.00] 2021 X5M Competition [0.00]	But but but. Let's be honest here. Lexus isn't doing NA these days because it's more fun, it's just cheaper for them. They are using the same engine they built over 10 years ago. Developing a performance turbo engine will cost them a lot of money. I'm sure they will soon. You can already see turbo engines creep up in their regular lineup. __________________ Previous 21 X5M MBB, 20 Evora GT, 20 C63S Coupe,19 X5 50i, 18 Giulia QV, 18 M5, 17 Evora 400, 18 LX570, 17 GT350,18 M4 Comp,17 R8 V10 ,17 M3 Comp,17 GT350,16 Escalade Plat ESV, 16 570S,16 911 GTS,15 M5, 15 LX570, 13 M5,13 Viper,14 Cayman S,13 M3,13 S4,10 RX8,12 A4,10 G37, 04 Mini Cooper S, 08 Scion TC, 06 Altima V6, 05 Altima, 01 Altima, 00 Altima, 94 Explorer, 92 Toyota Pickup, 98 Altima
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02-28-2017, 02:21 PM	#85
carrera2RSL Lieutenant 183 Rep 579 Posts Drives: F10 M5 CP Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	I like Chris Harris but.... Sorry Chris my CP M5 is not too stiff for me, I don't want to drive a wallowy boat even if it's quicker. I want something stiffer and ha ve moved to Dinan coils and just picked up some KW V3's. As for interiors ergonomically dreadful and aesthetically worse, no comparison for me. Yes I'd prefer zero turbo lag and NA but the compromise is less performance and low torque in the case of a 5 I'll take the turbo. My E39 was stellar aurally with a Kelleners exhaust but slower.... As for looks, the M5 looks too tame for what it can do but the Lexus IS bloody awful, period. Chris, Mate I know the Lexus IS quirky but anything that ugly with that amount of poorly thought through Engineering solutions will be quirky. Charm and Charisma is the domain of the Italians not the Asians
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02-28-2017, 03:49 PM	#87
carrera2RSL Lieutenant 183 Rep 579 Posts Drives: F10 M5 CP Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	RAUH-Welt Begriff has charisma too but neither are car manufacturers. I was going to say with respect but I won't. My comments were related to car manufacturers and in quirky cars. Worry not I'm not in any way racist and no offence was meant. More than I can say for your comment.
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