M5 Ring-Taxi crash closes Nürburgring today...

[Kayani_1]

After watching the video in slow mo my opinion is the same. I think it was savable the driver is very slow with counter steering.

Originally Posted by OC3

Not sure about that. When the backend stepped out, the driver puts in very little counter-steering and very slowly too. Freeze-frame the video when the car is at mid-track and in a large slip angle, and the direction of the front tires nowhere matches that angle.

That slide was saveable.




How does a professional driver not know how to quickly opposite lock and steer into a slide to counter it? That guy is an amateur. As the article stated, in way over his head.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by karussell

brunnchen 2 is a nasty nasty turn.

depending on the car its a 3rd or 4th gear turn. very high speed perfect apex. the exit falls away. in this case the taxi driver was probably less than 6 inches too early on turn in. back left tire touches the super slick cement on left while its fully loaded and it pitches the car. when it does you are a passenger. nothing can be done to correct it at that speed. thats all it takes. these guys are pro's and even they make mistakes. the GT2 behind him probably was noted but not a factor in making this mistake.

this turn kills the most motorcyclists as well.

its better to just turn in later shift down to third. slightly late apex and give your self a more straighter approach up towards eis curve. better with high hp cars and especially when its wet.

Originally Posted by OC3

Not sure about that. When the backend stepped out, the driver puts in very little counter-steering and very slowly too. Freeze-frame the video when the car is at mid-track and in a large slip angle, and the direction of the front tires nowhere matches that angle.

That slide was saveable.




How does a professional driver not know how to quickly opposite lock and steer into a slide to counter it? That guy is an amateur. As the article stated, in way over his head.

Originally Posted by composed

Agreed. Of course you never know what was going on (in his head or otherwise) at the exact moment the driver was making a decision (or no decision) about what to do, but it is painfully obvious (and I think important for people learning from this video, as I did back in my racing/instructing days) that he should have counter-steered a lot more and quickly. These are second nature skills to experienced drivers and would have given him a far better chance of recovery.

Originally Posted by composed

It appears to me that the start of the problem was giving too much throttle at the corner exit (where he was already at the traction limit) creating on oversteer condition - you can hear him get on the throttle more right before he gets to the brick curb apron, and then him let off after he starts to slide. At the very instant you feel the start of the slide you have to very quickly react with opposite lock to counter the slide (ie: quickly turning the steering wheel more to the left in this case so that the angle of your front wheels matches the angle of the slide, it's just something you have to feel) and modulate the throttle gently if needed - that's how he could have saved it, but it doesn't appear that he did this enough - you can see his front wheels are not turned very much and they were very slow even getting to the angle he did. By then he is already headed for the wall instead of down the track on the slip angle he would have been on if he reacted quickly. And secondarily lifting off the throttle too much doesn't help either because the weight shifts to the front and the rear loses even more traction - might have contributed some in this case. This all requires a very quick response (watch how quick Formula 1 drivers do it - so fast you hardly recognize it!) and if not, you're done. Doing what is mentioned above would give you a very high potential of a successful recovery, or at least mitigate enough that you might not hit a wall/rail. Hard to find a reason this technique wouldn't have worked here...

Note that the above procedure is just to neutralize the initial slide so, even if he did do the above, he still would have had to recover the second half of the slide as the car begins moving the opposite direction and straighten the car back out to normal (by steering back to the right and steady throttle).

This is a very common beginner mistake I've seen as an instructor many times, especially in higher HP cars with traction control off - be careful out there!

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

After watching the video in slow mo my opinion is the same. I think it was savable the driver is very slow with counter steering.

As an amateur I will not try to analyze the driving etc here

But since member @karussell probably is the only poster in this thread with extensive racing and track day experience on the Nurburgring, I am inclined to listen to his opinion on this incident

[PawnStar]

Amazing how stable and glued to the track all of the Porsches were...Even the convertibles were like...yawn, get out of the way ...

[karussell]

Originally Posted by composed

Agreed. Of course you never know what was going on (in his head or otherwise) at the exact moment the driver was making a decision (or no decision) about what to do, but it is painfully obvious (and I think important for people learning from this video, as I did back in my racing/instructing days) that he should have counter-steered a lot more and quickly. These are second nature skills to experienced drivers and would have given him a far better chance of recovery.

The taxi drivers all race professionally at that track either previously or currently active along with test drive duties on the nurburgring. they have over a thousand laps on that track. and yes they can make mistakes too. the mistake he made was turning in slightly too early for the load limit of the tires. early apex.

Its easy to look at the video and say oh yeah countersteer duh. why don't you try it for yourself then? its a high 3rd gear corner. that concrete is slick as snot and it falls away from the track making it a vacuum. when it pitches a car at the limit you aren't likely to get out of it. judging by the impact he probably was concerned with saving the passengers and was on the brakes hard once the car went around on him. hell its probably team orders for that turn.

I don't know this driver but I rode with claudia hurtgen. Andy Priaulx is another ring taxi driver. look them up. they know how to countersteer along with winning races...

[karussell]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

Amazing how stable and glued to the track all of the Porsches were...Even the convertibles were like...yawn, get out of the way ...

every 911 can get around the track quite well as long as the driver knows what they are doing. the M5 is heavy and its loaded with passengers. I am pretty sure the drivers have to keep the speed down too as it definitely can go faster on the straights yet they hold back. I think they need to stick to a 9 minute b2g lap from what i see there. now if it were me having to drive the ring taxi all day long and i want to get some practice in i would probably coast on the straights and talk with passengers while pushing in the corners to get most of my time.

[karussell]

on this track above all others shit happens. every bmw taxi driver knows this well. i still think its probably best ride in the park...certainly safest. you might be unlucky and get a lap with a real lunatic like me sometime.

[qbix]

It looks like he was late with counter lock. I don't take the explanation that the stripe of concrete was slippery as then the front wheels would give up first and the car would go understeer.

He was too early on the throttle and just went wide out of the corner.
Then lifted the throttle and went oversteer. The rears lost traction.
Too narrow track to save it. Whatever he would try to do the result would be the same.
Hit nicely with the front first which was the safest for all the guys onboard.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by qbix

It looks like he was late with counter lock. I don't take the explanation that the stripe of concrete was slippery as then the front wheels would give up first and the car would go understeer.

He was too early on the throttle and just went wide out of the corner.
Then lifted the throttle and went oversteer. The rears lost traction.
Too narrow track to save it. Whatever he would try to do the result would be the same.
Hit nicely with the front first which was the safest for all the guys onboard.

When I watch the video the front left tire always stays on the tarmac and doesn't enter the concrete at all...

[M54ccibo]

Just watched a few other ring videos, and it appears that in most vids the F10 ring taxis try intentionally power slide out of the corner...check it out:

I'm no track expert but looks like he was carried a bit too much into the corner and didn't react fast enough to the slide. It happens, maybe he put focus on the P-car behind instead of driving - knowing that he should have let him pass.

Glad nobody was hurt.

[Tony B]

Originally Posted by Smooth 330i

I can't understand why was he pushing it with passengers in it? I mean drive at 75% and have fun safely it's not a race.

They push it, to entertain the paying passengers!

If my Ring Taxi driver only went at 75%, I would be quite disappointed.

I don't recognise the driver, and I am guessing that he is not too experienced with driving that car, with the extra weight of 3 passengers, including 2 in the rear. Frankly the M5 is so well sorted, and he really was not soooo hot going into the turn (barely off-line at the exit) it looks like a pretty poor bit of car control.

If he was losing it before the apex, or way off line at the exit, it might be different, but this was poor car control rather than excess speed into the corner. Maybe even lifting off......

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by Tony B

They push it, to entertain the paying passengers!

If my Ring Taxi driver only went at 75%, I would be quite disappointed.

I don't recognise the driver, and I am guessing that he is not too experienced with driving that car, with the extra weight of 3 passengers, including 2 in the rear. Frankly the M5 is so well sorted, and he really was not soooo hot going into the turn (barely off-line at the exit) it looks like a pretty poor bit of car control.

If he was losing it before the apex, or way off line at the exit, it might be different, but this was poor car control rather than excess speed into the corner. Maybe even lifting off......

Well I guess that's my point also. If he did not have sufficient experience in a 5K lb M5 than 75% sounds pretty good cause 100% isn't pretty.

I am amazed how quickly those P's stopped - just amazing!

[Emeye]

Originally Posted by Smooth 330i

Well I guess that's my point also. If he did not have sufficient experience in a 5K lb M5 than 75% sounds pretty good cause 100% isn't pretty.

I am amazed how quickly those P's stopped - just amazing!

What surprises me is they all stop suddenly and block the track - surely common sense says get out of the way cos there is a truck load of very fast cars following? If a couple of cars stop to check the driver is ok then great.

It reminds me of when an ambulance approaches a busy junction - most drivers just have no idea what to do and panic!

[Pentium]

Originally Posted by M54ccibo

Just watched a few other ring videos, and it appears that in most vids the F10 ring taxis try intentionally power slide out of the corner...check it out:

I'm no track expert but looks like he was carried a bit too much into the corner and didn't react fast enough to the slide. It happens, maybe he put focus on the P-car behind instead of driving - knowing that he should have let him pass.

Glad nobody was hurt.

That's some nice dancing there

glad nobody hurt...sure he was trying to power slide....
guess it was a bad day for the passengers also....not only the driver...

[soooma]

Originally Posted by Pentium

That's some nice dancing there

glad nobody hurt...sure he was trying to power slide....
guess it was a bad day for the passengers also....not only the driver...

Bad but forever a memorable lesson !!

[Fuman]

That felt really terrible for me.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Fuman

That felt really terrible for me.

[jpk774]

Originally Posted by ufgtrs2007

That's terrible, even the pros make mistakes. This has me worried about driving the ring on my upcoming ED in October.

I wouldnt worry about it. I did the ED last year in sept. As long as you move over and take the first lap easy and get to know the track you will be fine. Dont try to break any records on a track you dont even know. Half way through you will gain more confidence. And play LOTS of grand turismo lol seriously the track is in the game and gives you great insight.. perfect simulator before you role onto the track. Spend 2 days and take a go pro.

-JP

[GreM5lin]

Taking ED of M5 now and did a lap on the Ring the same morning. As we finished the lap around 09:45am, we stopped off at the souvenir shop to get some stuff for the kids, and just happened to take these pics of cars lining up for ring....

@ufgtrs2007 - like the others said, just run it for fun and not to impress or for time. I got a bit worried reading about the things that could happen but decide to do a lap. The wife and 9, 7, & 4 years old all rode in the car for the lap. Everyone agreed it was better than any roller coaster they've been on.

[ufgtrs2007]

Originally Posted by jpk774

I wouldnt worry about it. I did the ED last year in sept. As long as you move over and take the first lap easy and get to know the track you will be fine. Dont try to break any records on a track you dont even know. Half way through you will gain more confidence. And play LOTS of grand turismo lol seriously the track is in the game and gives you great insight.. perfect simulator before you role onto the track. Spend 2 days and take a go pro.

-JP

Thanks for the advice. I've been playing GT5 and learning the track. I'll be there on Wednesday October 15th for the after hours/afternoon tourist ride, so hopefully there won't be much traffic.

[ufgtrs2007]

Originally Posted by GreM5lin

Taking ED of M5 now and did a lap on the Ring the same morning. As we finished the lap around 09:45am, we stopped off at the souvenir shop to get some stuff for the kids, and just happened to take these pics of cars lining up for ring....

@ufgtrs2007 - like the others said, just run it for fun and not to impress or for time. I got a bit worried reading about the things that could happen but decide to do a lap. The wife and 9, 7, & 4 years old all rode in the car for the lap. Everyone agreed it was better than any roller coaster they've been on.

Awesome Glad you and your family enjoyed it in the beast

[ufgtrs2007]

Originally Posted by dclowd9901

Ever done a track day? Just take it easy and yield to faster traffic. You don't have to prove anything to anyone -- it's the hardest frigging track on the planet.

I'd be interested in knowing if anyone's developed an iPhone app or something to be a veritable "codriver" for this track (handing you speeds/gears to be in for the various turns). If not, maybe I should jump on it before my trip.

Yeah, I've done plenty of track days and consider myself a competent driver. I think I'm more worried about everyone else around me as well as being on a new track. I've driven the track many times on GT5, so I'm confident in my ability to be able to drive it. I plan to take it easy and enjoy the experience more than anything else.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by karussell

The taxi drivers all race professionally at that track either previously or currently active along with test drive duties on the nurburgring. they have over a thousand laps on that track. and yes they can make mistakes too. the mistake he made was turning in slightly too early for the load limit of the tires. early apex.

Its easy to look at the video and say oh yeah countersteer duh. why don't you try it for yourself then? its a high 3rd gear corner. that concrete is slick as snot and it falls away from the track making it a vacuum. when it pitches a car at the limit you aren't likely to get out of it. judging by the impact he probably was concerned with saving the passengers and was on the brakes hard once the car went around on him. hell its probably team orders for that turn.

I don't know this driver but I rode with claudia hurtgen. Andy Priaulx is another ring taxi driver. look them up. they know how to countersteer along with winning races...

I still say it was saveable and this driver is at the bottom of the rung amongst the M5 taxi driver group.

The wheel/spokes on the front tires should not be visible to to the viewer when viewed from straight back side of the scene, as shown in the first (screenshot from the video posted by @M54ccibo) of the following photos.

Compared that to the following 3 stillshots from this crash video and look how the wheel spokes are clearly visible to the viewer at the back. The front tires should've been turned much more so that all you'd see is the tire tread.