Running in the Engine

[JOHNBMWM5]

Interesting article on this here: From R&T Magazine.......
BMW is quietly rolling out a Customer Care Package, or CCP, for its N63 twin-turbocharged V8 to fix a handful of glitches that have plagued the 4.4L since it was launched in 2008. The CCP is not a recall since it does not address safety-related concerns.
According to Road & Track, the CCP covers a wide range of items, from timing chains prone to failure to leaky fuel lines to faulty vacuum pumps. The CCP even reduces the N63's oil service interval from 15,000 miles to 10,000 miles. Interestingly, that reduction in mileage is the result of customers taking it too easy on the V8 rather than the other way around -- without a proper flogging during the break-in period, the N63 has a tendency to consume more oil.


I have always (once Oil is up to temperature) Pushed the new "M" engines for the first 50 miles or so using lower gears to slow down, this has always resulted in No Oil used., looks like I was right.

[GarbageMan]

Originally Posted by JOHNBMWM5

Interesting article on this here: From R&T Magazine.......
BMW is quietly rolling out a Customer Care Package, or CCP, for its N63 twin-turbocharged V8 to fix a handful of glitches that have plagued the 4.4L since it was launched in 2008. The CCP is not a recall since it does not address safety-related concerns.
According to Road & Track, the CCP covers a wide range of items, from timing chains prone to failure to leaky fuel lines to faulty vacuum pumps. The CCP even reduces the N63's oil service interval from 15,000 miles to 10,000 miles. Interestingly, that reduction in mileage is the result of customers taking it too easy on the V8 rather than the other way around -- without a proper flogging during the break-in period, the N63 has a tendency to consume more oil.


I have always (once Oil is up to temperature) Pushed the new "M" engines for the first 50 miles or so using lower gears to slow down, this has always resulted in No Oil used., looks like I was right.

Conversely, I went easy, and mine doesn't use a drop; it looks like I was right...

[mstmng]

Originally Posted by JOHNBMWM5

Interesting article on this here: From R&T Magazine.......
BMW is quietly rolling out a Customer Care Package, or CCP, for its N63 twin-turbocharged V8 to fix a handful of glitches that have plagued the 4.4L since it was launched in 2008. The CCP is not a recall since it does not address safety-related concerns.
According to Road & Track, the CCP covers a wide range of items, from timing chains prone to failure to leaky fuel lines to faulty vacuum pumps. The CCP even reduces the N63's oil service interval from 15,000 miles to 10,000 miles. Interestingly, that reduction in mileage is the result of customers taking it too easy on the V8 rather than the other way around -- without a proper flogging during the break-in period, the N63 has a tendency to consume more oil.


I have always (once Oil is up to temperature) Pushed the new "M" engines for the first 50 miles or so using lower gears to slow down, this has always resulted in No Oil used., looks like I was right.

it is such a joke to change oil every 15k miles and even every 10k miles
i change oil every 3k to 5k miles
and castrol bmw uses is another joke as well, it ruins your engine, especially if you change oil with that long intervals, but bmw obviously does it to make sure that your engine does not last more than 60-80k miles and then you get huge bill

if anyone is interested i will make a thread on it, so everyone can benefit

[Bönz]

There are already a dozen threads on this subject that include scientific oil analyses. Modern oils (especially synthetics or synthetic blends) do not need changing every 3~5k miles. Some reports demonstrate that the oil itself doesn't reach peak effectiveness until 1~2k miles. But if it makes you feel better, it's your money.

And if you truly believe BMW is intentionally over extending change intervals to decrease engine life for financial gain, well then I don't know what to say. That's just ridiculous.

[E90potentialbuyer]

Originally Posted by Bönz

There are already a dozen threads on this subject that include scientific oil analyses. Modern oils (especially synthetics or synthetic blends) do not need changing every 3~5k miles. Some reports demonstrate that the oil itself doesn't reach peak effectiveness until 1~2k miles. But if it makes you feel better, it's your money.

And if you truly believe BMW is intentionally over extending change intervals to decrease engine life for financial gain, well then I don't know what to say. That's just ridiculous.

+1

[brainblade]

Originally Posted by Bönz

There are already a dozen threads on this subject that include scientific oil analyses. Modern oils (especially synthetics or synthetic blends) do not need changing every 3~5k miles. Some reports demonstrate that the oil itself doesn't reach peak effectiveness until 1~2k miles. But if it makes you feel better, it's your money.

And if you truly believe BMW is intentionally over extending change intervals to decrease engine life for financial gain, well then I don't know what to say. That's just ridiculous.

A long while back, I worked as a lab technician as a summer internship job during college. The division I worked in concentrated on polymer research and I specifically worked on water treatment polymers. During lunch I would sit with senior research scientists at the company and two of them were car enthusiasts. At the time in 1993, the synthetic oil market was taking off. I remember having a long lunch conversation about synthetic oil and the impact on engine wear. The head of the group claimed that he believed(at the time) that extending oil change intervals because of synthetic oil is not recommended. While the viscosity breakdown of synthetics is better, he said that the wear comes from the introduction of carbon particles in the oil which creates the friction. So dirty synthetic with carbon particles still creates wear and tear. The idea is to change yours every 3-5 k miles.

There was also a auto paint division at the company where the lab technician in the group would create 4x8 slabs of sheet metal with different colored auto paints and would perform accelerated tests on them like leaving them in the oven, exposing them to bright uv lights and acid rain tests. I remember asking about what he thought was the best wax and he told me to use nu finish and avoid anything that beads. He said beading creates small droplets that eventually evaporate thus leaving the dirt/pollutant particle that is the center of the water droplet that over time etches into the paint. So use a sealant that sheets water off rather than beads. Granted this was 22 years ago. I remember him saying that of all the colors that performed the best, he found turquoise used on the acura integra to hold up and hide stuff. ???

[mstmng]

Originally Posted by Bönz

There are already a dozen threads on this subject that include scientific oil analyses. Modern oils (especially synthetics or synthetic blends) do not need changing every 3~5k miles. Some reports demonstrate that the oil itself doesn't reach peak effectiveness until 1~2k miles. But if it makes you feel better, it's your money.

And if you truly believe BMW is intentionally over extending change intervals to decrease engine life for financial gain, well then I don't know what to say. That's just ridiculous.

i do not belive that bmw over extending change intervals i can see it by my computer

my car is 2012 and my intervals are at 15k miles, all LCI models come with 10k miles ? why? if oil getting better why they reduce mileage in between oil changes? because people complaint and it is not 2/3L petrol engine with 6 cylinders its 600hp 4.4L V8 with 2 turbos on it! it runs some serious power and it does need fresh oil/ oil filter more often then you think or "scientists" have proved. who are those scientists? same people who work for castrol/shell/mobil...? all these business are connected in tight contracts
castrol provides ok'ish oil to run the car, bmw provides you car and says USE ONLY THIS OIL or your warranty is gone
you say no problem, if bmw says, means its good

you drive your car, 80k miles later your engine starts to fall apart, you get blue'ish smoke from exhaust, they take engine apart and OMG what you see inside makes you want to cry and once you see the bill for repair it is even worse

i will post couple videos later today, that prove that castrol is shit and long term intervals are even worse

i understand most people here will never keep cars till that mileage and even more people lease their cars so they have 0 worries

but if you are an enthusiast and you care so much about your car/paint protection/leather protection/etc you should care about your engine as well

on top of that i had a consumption of 1L every 700-1000 miles when i used castrol, soon i have switched to different brand it went to 0L per 5k miles

i would love to see how long would you last if your body would not generate new blood cells

[GarbageMan]

I'll gladly keep doing what I have been doing; that is changing the oil and filter myself with M1 0W-40 at intervals that are a fraction of what is recommended. I likewise send oil samples to Blackstone for UOA. The car does not burn oil.

[Wills2]

I have Castrol in mine and it hasn't used a drop in the first 6000 miles, what that means I don't know. I guess the same as saying it's rubbish because someone else suffered oil consumption?

Maybe I haven't looked hard enough but I haven't heard of loads of S63's going bang, the internet is usually pretty good at highlighting/exaggerating these things just look at the 996/997 water cooled engine scare stories.

[bimmer-boy]

Originally Posted by Wills2

I have Castrol in mine and it hasn't used a drop in the first 6000 miles, what that means I don't know. I guess the same as saying it's rubbish because someone else suffered oil consumption?

Maybe I haven't looked hard enough but I haven't heard of loads of S63's going bang, the internet is usually pretty good at highlighting/exaggerating these things just look at the 996/997 water cooled engine scare stories.

What break in did you follow?

[MCarsFan]

Compared to my 13 M5 my 14 M5 with a remap has used significantly less oil. My 13 needed a top up every 800 miles or so.. My 14 is just on 6500 miles and probably needs topping up now..

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

Compared to my 13 M5 my 14 M5 with a remap has used significantly less oil. My 13 needed a top up every 800 miles or so.. My 14 is just on 6500 miles and probably needs topping up now..

I presume you'll wait until it says +1ltr?

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by bimmer-boy

What break in did you follow?

I just made sure I gave the engine appropriate amounts of load from medium revs and used engine braking were I could.

I avoided high engine revs (5.5k+) and sustained high speeds (100+)

I did the 1200 miles in about 7-10 days.

[MCarsFan]

I'll add a quart when the oil hits the minimum.. Soon..

[Bönz]

[QUOTE=mstmng;17915598]i do not belive that bmw over extending change intervals i can see it by my computer
my car is 2012 and my intervals are at 15k miles, all LCI models come with 10k miles ? why? if oil getting better why they reduce mileage in between oil changes? because people complaint and it is not 2/3L petrol engine with 6 cylinders its 600hp 4.4L V8 with 2 turbos on it! it runs some serious power and it does need fresh oil/ oil filter more often then you think or "scientists" have proved. who are those scientists? same people who work for castrol/shell/mobil...? all these business are connected in tight contracts
castrol provides ok'ish oil to run the car, bmw provides you car and says USE ONLY THIS OIL or your warranty is gone
you say no problem, if bmw says, means its good[QUOTE]

Oil hasn't changed that much in the last 3 years. The reason BMW shortened the interval was because of oil consumption. By shortening the interval, most drivers will not have to add between changes (or only add 1 liter) creating the perception of less consumption and increasing owner satisfaction. All automotive oils must meet the same standards to be certified to the same ACEA or API specification. There is virtually no difference between Castrol, Mobile 1, Shell, etc. It's all in your head. BMW recently made a move from Castrol to Shell because they got a better deal, or the Shell rep had better tickets. You're sort of right about that. But you cannot void your warranty by not using the recommended brand. However, you should use the specified viscosity and type.

I am not talking about "scientists". There are published reports, from consumers and independent oil labs, that analyze used oil for break down and contaminates that are harmful to your engine. According to these reports, there is no significant harmful degradation of the oil after the recommended change intervals. (Research it, easy to find).

Manufacturers design oiling systems and recommend change intervals based on the engine's output, intended use, displacement, heat, etc. It is not just a matter of recommended oil. That's why the S63Tu has a larger 8 liter sump versus a smaller, lower output engine. The S63Tu has a two stage volume flow controlled pump, twin pickups, a bypass filtration system (for cold thick oil), piston nozzles and an oil cooler, all to help keep your engine well lubricated and happy. Furthermore, the oil sensor in the S63Tu only senses level and not life.

None of this has anything to do with what I "think". It is all fact. I suggest you do some homework and a bit of google research before you post another conjectured rebuttal. BTW. I have two engineering degrees, have worked in the automotive industry for 30 years and have rebuilt 20 or so engines.

[MCarsFan]

[QUOTE=Bönz;17916862][QUOTE=mstmng;17915598]i do not belive that bmw over extending change intervals i can see it by my computer
my car is 2012 and my intervals are at 15k miles, all LCI models come with 10k miles ? why? if oil getting better why they reduce mileage in between oil changes? because people complaint and it is not 2/3L petrol engine with 6 cylinders its 600hp 4.4L V8 with 2 turbos on it! it runs some serious power and it does need fresh oil/ oil filter more often then you think or "scientists" have proved. who are those scientists? same people who work for castrol/shell/mobil...? all these business are connected in tight contracts
castrol provides ok'ish oil to run the car, bmw provides you car and says USE ONLY THIS OIL or your warranty is gone
you say no problem, if bmw says, means its good

Oil hasn't changed that much in the last 3 years. The reason BMW shortened the interval was because of oil consumption. By shortening the interval, most drivers will not have to add between changes (or only add 1 liter) creating the perception of less consumption and increasing owner satisfaction. All automotive oils must meet the same standards to be certified to the same ACEA or API specification. There is virtually no difference between Castrol, Mobile 1, Shell, etc. It's all in your head. BMW recently made a move from Castrol to Shell because they got a better deal, or the Shell rep had better tickets. You're sort of right about that. But you cannot void your warranty by not using the recommended brand. However, you should use the specified viscosity and type.

I am not talking about "scientists". There are published reports, from consumers and independent oil labs, that analyze used oil for break down and contaminates that are harmful to your engine. According to these reports, there is no significant harmful degradation of the oil after the recommended change intervals. (Research it, easy to find).

Manufacturers design oiling systems and recommend change intervals based on the engine's output, intended use, displacement, heat, etc. It is not just a matter of recommended oil. That's why the S63Tu has a larger 8 liter sump versus a smaller, lower output engine. The S63Tu has a two stage volume flow controlled pump, twin pickups, a bypass filtration system (for cold thick oil), piston nozzles and an oil cooler, all to help keep your engine well lubricated and happy. Furthermore, the oil sensor in the S63Tu only senses level and not life.

None of this has anything to do with what I "think". It is all fact. I suggest you do some homework and a bit of google research before you post another conjectured rebuttal. BTW. I have two engineering degrees, have worked in the automotive industry for 30 years and have rebuilt 20 or so engines.

Thanks for posting, do you know if the oil used in the pre 1200 mile period is the same? I know there are other threads on this but thought id ask you.

Also, have read somewhere that depending on how you do your run in, will determine how much oil you use. I think I ran my 14 in a bit more conservatively and it uses a lot less oil..

[mstmng]

Originally Posted by Bönz

Oil hasn't changed that much in the last 3 years. The reason BMW shortened the interval was because of oil consumption. By shortening the interval, most drivers will not have to add between changes (or only add 1 liter) creating the perception of less consumption and increasing owner satisfaction. All automotive oils must meet the same standards to be certified to the same ACEA or API specification. There is virtually no difference between Castrol, Mobile 1, Shell, etc. It's all in your head. BMW recently made a move from Castrol to Shell because they got a better deal, or the Shell rep had better tickets. You're sort of right about that. But you cannot void your warranty by not using the recommended brand. However, you should use the specified viscosity and type.

I am not talking about "scientists". There are published reports, from consumers and independent oil labs, that analyze used oil for break down and contaminates that are harmful to your engine. According to these reports, there is no significant harmful degradation of the oil after the recommended change intervals. (Research it, easy to find).

Manufacturers design oiling systems and recommend change intervals based on the engine's output, intended use, displacement, heat, etc. It is not just a matter of recommended oil. That's why the S63Tu has a larger 8 liter sump versus a smaller, lower output engine. The S63Tu has a two stage volume flow controlled pump, twin pickups, a bypass filtration system (for cold thick oil), piston nozzles and an oil cooler, all to help keep your engine well lubricated and happy. Furthermore, the oil sensor in the S63Tu only senses level and not life.

None of this has anything to do with what I "think". It is all fact. I suggest you do some homework and a bit of google research before you post another conjectured rebuttal. BTW. I have two engineering degrees, have worked in the automotive industry for 30 years and have rebuilt 20 or so engines.

i do understand that and know that
but like i said i will post videos where you can see exactly what castrol/shell/mobil/etc are about compared to other non-commercial one

well i am using non-specified viscosity, i switched from 0w-30 castrol to 5w-50 xtr c60 racing oil by bardahl and now i am waiting for delivery of Pakelo Crypton Racing 5w-50 (Pakelo is th eonly company to my knowledge that produces their oil from brand new, not any recycled shit like all the commercial once)

i was going to make a new thread, but here are the 2 videos, unfortunately both of them are in russian, however in first video you do not need to understand anything, you simply need to watch the experiment and the outcome

In second video they test the pressure in cylinders and then take engine apart, if you did rebuild so many engines you should know what engine looks like after 155k kms!!!! oil has been changed every 3-5k kms and it was running 700bhp and 900nm torque, they will also compare it to exact same engine (60k kms) with stock power doing oil changes at bmw's given intervals

if u want anything specific translated let me know the time of video i will do that!

[Bönz]

There is nothing in the BMW tech manual that suggests they use any sort of break-in oil. BMW does strongly recommend following its 1200 mile, variable rpm, variable speed, no kick-down break-in period. You will find that people are just as opinionated on this subject as they are on oil change intervals.

While all journals and bores are machined to exacting tolerances, the bearings and piston rings that fill the "gaps" between all the machined surfaces are under tremendous stresses generated from the physical loads and heat cycling that occur inside an engine. All the mating components on a new engine need time to adjust and "learn" to fit together. This is certainly more important on a high strung engine like the S63Tu than it is on a Honda 4 cylinder.

Giving the engine time to break-in, especially allowing the rings to seat, in theory, reduces future oil consumption and provides for stronger performance and longer life. Note that when discussing engine life, it's always rings and bearings that fail first (disregarding blowing up your engine from too much boost, etc.) I broke in my N63 (650i) and never had oil consumption issues. I did the same with my M5, as recommended by BMW. I'm only at 1500 miles, so it's too soon to tell, but I tend to believe the experienced engineers at BMW over the "drive it like you stole when new crowd". It has always worked for me.

The 1200 mile oil change is intended to flush out all the metallic particles resulting from the reciprocating components wearing in. Keep in mind, that the break-in period applies to the rest of the car as well. The transmission, diff and even the wheel bearings all need a little love when they first meet. The 1200 mile service also includes a diff lube change for the same reason as stated above. I am not sure what the ECU reset is all about. I have read that it unlocks the launch control and more power, but since I didn't use LC during break-in (as directed) I cannot confirm this. Nor do I feel more power since my service.

[Bönz]

Originally Posted by mstmng

i do understand that and know that
but like i said i will post videos where you can see exactly what castrol/shell/mobil/etc are about compared to other non-commercial one

well i am using non-specified viscosity, i switched from 0w-30 castrol to 5w-50 xtr c60 racing oil by bardahl and now i am waiting for delivery of Pakelo Crypton Racing 5w-50 (Pakelo is th eonly company to my knowledge that produces their oil from brand new, not any recycled shit like all the commercial once)

i was going to make a new thread, but here are the 2 videos, unfortunately both of them are in russian, however in first video you do not need to understand anything, you simply need to watch the experiment and the outcome

In second video they test the pressure in cylinders and then take engine apart, if you did rebuild so many engines you should know what engine looks like after 155k kms!!!! oil has been changed every 3-5k kms and it was running 700bhp and 900nm torque, they will also compare it to exact same engine (60k kms) with stock power doing oil changes at bmw's given intervals

if u want anything specific translated let me know the time of video i will do that!

I don't have to watch the first video. Everyone in the industry who knows anything about oil, knows that the Timken bearing test rig is for snake oil salesman. It is a test that is designed for industrial greases and not low viscosity (engine) oils. You will find every oil additive BS artist in every major automotive store in the US showing how their additive works better than plain oil. You can pour bleach or coke-cola into the reservoir of that machine and it will work better than the oil in there.

I don't have time to watch the second video, but one case of two different engines is not statistically significant. Besides, if I understand you correctly, you're not even comparing two identical engines with the same oil and different change intervals. So the result is irrelevant to this debate. Poor cylinder pressure, as eluded to in my previous post, can be a direct result of poor break-in and has nothing to do with oil change intervals.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by Bönz

There is nothing in the BMW tech manual that suggests they use any sort of break-in oil. BMW does strongly recommend following its 1200 mile, variable rpm, variable speed, no kick-down break-in period. You will find that people are just as opinionated on this subject as they are on oil change intervals.

While all journals and bores are machined to exacting tolerances, the bearings and piston rings that fill the "gaps" between all the machined surfaces are under tremendous stresses generated from the physical loads and heat cycling that occur inside an engine. All the mating components on a new engine need time to adjust and "learn" to fit together. This is certainly more important on a high strung engine like the S63Tu than it is on a Honda 4 cylinder.

Giving the engine time to break-in, especially allowing the rings to seat, in theory, reduces future oil consumption and provides for stronger performance and longer life. Note that when discussing engine life, it's always rings and bearings that fail first (disregarding blowing up your engine from too much boost, etc.) I broke in my N63 (650i) and never had oil consumption issues. I did the same with my M5, as recommended by BMW. I'm only at 1500 miles, so it's too soon to tell, but I tend to believe the experienced engineers at BMW over the "drive it like you stole when new crowd". It has always worked for me.

The 1200 mile oil change is intended to flush out all the metallic particles resulting from the reciprocating components wearing in. Keep in mind, that the break-in period applies to the rest of the car as well. The transmission, diff and even the wheel bearings all need a little love when they first meet. The 1200 mile service also includes a diff lube change for the same reason as stated above. I am not sure what the ECU reset is all about. I have read that it unlocks the launch control and more power, but since I didn't use LC during break-in (as directed) I cannot confirm this. Nor do I feel more power since my service.

I agree, I doubt BMW uses any kind of break in oil now. The company I work for manufactures seals and o rings for automotive companies, and 99% of the time they test with one kind of oil only.

As for first service unlock more power, again, I don't believe it either. BMW mechanics at Taiwan (and I have asked several dealerships) have never heard of it nor do they believe it. And this seems to come from some mechanics in the first place anyways, it's just he said and she said, all those BMW mechanics themselves can't even agree on it.

[mstmng]

Originally Posted by Bönz

I don't have to watch the first video. Everyone in the industry who knows anything about oil, knows that the Timken bearing test rig is for snake oil salesman. It is a test that is designed for industrial greases and not low viscosity (engine) oils. You will find every oil additive BS artist in every major automotive store in the US showing how their additive works better than plain oil. You can pour bleach or coke-cola into the reservoir of that machine and it will work better than the oil in there.

I don't have time to watch the second video, but one case of two different engines is not statistically significant. Besides, if I understand you correctly, you're not even comparing two identical engines with the same oil and different change intervals. So the result is irrelevant to this debate. Poor cylinder pressure, as eluded to in my previous post, can be a direct result of poor break-in and has nothing to do with oil change intervals.

in second video they test exact same engine, but one they are taking apart was running 700hp and oil changes done every 3-5k kms vs stock power, oil changes done as requested by bmw

700hp has 155k kms and stock one has 60k kms
so they are 2 same engines

[Bönz]

They are not the same if one was modified. Ignoring that, were they broken in the same? Where they running the same oil? Was the "stock" engine abused? Again, I didn't watch the video, so maybe the answers are in there. But if you're not comparing apples to apples then the test is irrelevant.

One example does not prove a theory. If this were true, BMW engines would be failing all over the place. 60k miles is nothing and there are many thousands of BMWs with millions of miles out there with no problems. That is a statistic I have faith in.