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      08-24-2019, 11:27 AM   #1
SmokinJoe
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Pre ignition

Hello all. I’m new here. Just got a 2014 M5 CP with 50k miles on it. Love the car but I’m having spark knock issues. Most any time I role into the throttle above 30-50% I get knock as it gets into the boost. I’m in nor cal so I get acn fuel but I wouldn’t think it wouldn’t think it would be this bad. Car is bone stock. I obviously use premium fuel. I got bm3 just to monitor and confirm it was truly knocking. The logs confirm what I’m hearing. I would love to put a stage 1 tune in it but if it gets spark knock in stock form I’m worried. I have changed plugs to ngk 95770 1 step cooler with no change. I switched to Amsoil 0-40 signature oil because it has the api-sn plus rating. Thought it may help after reading about all the low speed pre ignition stuff new di motors see. No change though. It doesn’t consume very much oil so I don’t think that’s contributing. Maybe 1/2 a qt in 3k.
Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated.
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      08-24-2019, 02:05 PM   #2
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Did you change coil packs?
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      08-24-2019, 03:07 PM   #3
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No. Didn’t think the coil packs would cause any knock issues. Don’t get any miss fires either. Do they go bad and cause knock?
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      08-24-2019, 05:57 PM   #4
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Recommended plugs are 97506
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      08-24-2019, 09:38 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Pikey Motorsports View Post
Recommended plugs are 97506
Yeah for tuned vehicles. I’m stock and don’t plan on going over stage 1 ever so I didn’t see the need for 2 heat ranges cooler. Most stage 1 tunes are ok with stock plugs if they are relatively fresh. Then again maybe I should have gone 2 steps cooler due to the crap gas we get in CA.
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      08-28-2019, 01:23 AM   #6
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Also was wondering if a tune may help this issue by increasing the amount of fuel at lower rpms. Stock the afr is 14.7 at wot until almost 5k rpm then it tapers to 12.6 by redline. That seems a bit lean to me at least in the lower rpm. Looks like some of the tuned stuff runs a bit richer down low. Maybe that will help cool the combustion and drown out some of the pre ignition. I may try the stage one tune and do some logs to see how it reacts.
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      08-28-2019, 02:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokinJoe View Post
Also was wondering if a tune may help this issue by increasing the amount of fuel at lower rpms. Stock the afr is 14.7 at wot until almost 5k rpm then it tapers to 12.6 by redline. That seems a bit lean to me at least in the lower rpm. Looks like some of the tuned stuff runs a bit richer down low. Maybe that will help cool the combustion and drown out some of the pre ignition. I may try the stage one tune and do some logs to see how it reacts.
I would not be tuning the car until you figure out what is causing your issues. A tune can push you over the edge and these motors are not cheap. Find out what's wrong first, fix it then get a tune.
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      08-28-2019, 11:46 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by SapphireM5 View Post
I would not be tuning the car until you figure out what is causing your issues. A tune can push you over the edge and these motors are not cheap. Find out what's wrong first, fix it then get a tune.
Your absolutely right. I wouldn’t go into this without carful monitoring and data logging. I operated a dyno professionally for 6+ years. I have a good ear for hearing knock. I would love the increased fuel from the tune without the extra boost. I haven’t learned the bm3 tuning software but if I do I guess I could try to richen up the afr and see if it helps. I’m starting to think the factory bmw tune runs things as lean as possible with aggressive timing for max efficiency making it close to knock as is. Then you throw in the fact it’s not running on 93 octane. Also the 91 in CA is even worse then the rest of the countries fuel.
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      08-29-2019, 05:02 AM   #9
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If it's knocking and you say the petrol in CA is questionable then I would try putting an octane booster into the tank.Don't like to say your being shortchanged in your particular area but we in UK have 99RON petrol for our M5's with stringent checks from government inspectors on suppliers.
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      08-29-2019, 05:15 AM   #10
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I've run my M5 on several tanks of non-ethanol 90 octane (US) without issue other than probably a little less power. The fuel mileage increased though. I should note that the temps were a bit cooler. It was probably in the 50-60F range at that time.

It's possible your high pressure fuel pump is showing signs of weakness. Being a 2014, you already have the updated version, but that doesn't make it bulletproof either. Dirty injectors could also factor in. Do you ever get "shadow codes" for any misfires?

It's not the greatest diagnostic path, but I would also try the octane booster for a couple of tanks and maybe get a quality injector cleaner run through. See if there is any improvement.
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      08-29-2019, 08:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technician117 View Post
I've run my M5 on several tanks of non-ethanol 90 octane (US) without issue other than probably a little less power. The fuel mileage increased though. I should note that the temps were a bit cooler. It was probably in the 50-60F range at that time.

It's possible your high pressure fuel pump is showing signs of weakness. Being a 2014, you already have the updated version, but that doesn't make it bulletproof either. Dirty injectors could also factor in. Do you ever get "shadow codes" for any misfires?

It's not the greatest diagnostic path, but I would also try the octane booster for a couple of tanks and maybe get a quality injector cleaner run through. See if there is any improvement.
It has been pretty warm out. Usually 75-90 when I’m having the issue. No codes or shadow codes. In the data logs the fuel psi is above target. Also did a injector cleaner too. It was some Techron based cleaner with no change. Thanks for the input. I bet your 90 octane non e is better than the ACN crap I get. I have a friend that uses that stuff in his carbonated vehicles and swears by it.
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      08-29-2019, 09:58 PM   #12
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Definitely take a closer look at afr. Lean condition is anything above 14.7 to 1. Depending on mileage maybe think about a bad o2 sensor or vacuum leaks. Like technician117 mentioned too, maybe your hpfp or injectors are giving out. You could try some race fuel to see if that bumps down the afr.
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      08-30-2019, 12:09 AM   #13
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I think I’ll try an octane boost and see what happens. Tough to diagnose this one. No codes whatsoever and runs fine besides the sound of pinging when getting into boost. Even the data logs look to be normal. So when it’s running at 14.7 under heavy load conditions the fuel trims are dead on so it’s doing what it wants it to. Only thing is if it’s a bad sensor it’s making its corrections based on false data. Just hate to throw parts at it.

When using Bootmod3 does anyone know how the spark on all the cylinders is monitored. You can see 1-4 not all 8 and if you look at superknock there are 9 channels you can monitor but none are labeled. I’m guessing the superknock is in counts per cylinder because some are at 0 and others are at 300 plus. May have to do another post on this to figure out how BMW does things in the DME.
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      09-01-2019, 04:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted M5 View Post
Definitely take a closer look at afr. Lean condition is anything above 14.7 to 1. Depending on mileage maybe think about a bad o2 sensor or vacuum leaks. Like technician117 mentioned too, maybe your hpfp or injectors are giving out. You could try some race fuel to see if that bumps down the afr.
is there any way that o2 sensor going bad without fault codes ??? sometimes rpm playing up and down sometimes not
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      09-01-2019, 07:59 AM   #15
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O2 sensors can get lazy and not throw codes. Happens all the time and across any make/manufacturers. At 50k miles, his are about due as a PM change anyway (the primary o2's).
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      09-01-2019, 02:42 PM   #16
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Never had any codes related to o2s but probably wouldn’t hurt to change them just to be safe.
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      09-22-2019, 09:27 PM   #17
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did you try going to the dealership??
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      09-25-2019, 06:43 AM   #18
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Knock as we all know is usually caused by too much timing advance and or being too lean fuel mixture.

I'd get it on an AFR meter to check it. Maybe change the O2 sensors as these are very sensitive on the S63tu.

Not sure can be done on a stock engine with regard to timing, maybe get a tuner to check it and adjust as required. Get a reputable stage 1 map put on with a touch of extra fuelling and a degree of retard to keep things safe?
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      09-27-2019, 12:31 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokinJoe View Post
Your absolutely right. I wouldn’t go into this without carful monitoring and data logging. I operated a dyno professionally for 6+ years. I have a good ear for hearing knock. I would love the increased fuel from the tune without the extra boost. I haven’t learned the bm3 tuning software but if I do I guess I could try to richen up the afr and see if it helps. I’m starting to think the factory bmw tune runs things as lean as possible with aggressive timing for max efficiency making it close to knock as is. Then you throw in the fact it’s not running on 93 octane. Also the 91 in CA is even worse then the rest of the countries fuel.
can you try to explain what knock sounds like.. does knock happen 24/7? at idle? only when hot? etc..
im just trying to know more and understand better in the case i get this bc every video ive seen on f10 knocks, im not sure if it is actually knocking, bad vid quality, etc
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      09-27-2019, 02:17 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by BeachM5nster View Post
can you try to explain what knock sounds like.. does knock happen 24/7? at idle? only when hot? etc..
im just trying to know more and understand better in the case i get this bc every video ive seen on f10 knocks, im not sure if it is actually knocking, bad vid quality, etc
The sound is not what some would call a knocking sound like a rod knock or anything like that. It’s pre ignition which sounds like a tin can with marbles in it being shaken. Only happens under heavy load when the boost is ramping in hard. Very few videos capture the sound of pre ignition also known as spark knock.
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      09-27-2019, 02:36 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F10CPROG View Post
Knock as we all know is usually caused by too much timing advance and or being too lean fuel mixture.

I'd get it on an AFR meter to check it. Maybe change the O2 sensors as these are very sensitive on the S63tu.

Not sure can be done on a stock engine with regard to timing, maybe get a tuner to check it and adjust as required. Get a reputable stage 1 map put on with a touch of extra fuelling and a degree of retard to keep things safe?
I had an afr probe in it while on the dyno. Showed very similar afr to the data logs I did. Again these were pretty lean at 14.7-1 until almost 5k rpm then tapers to low 13s high 12s by redline. Fuel trims are only a couple % give or take so it’s getting what it thinks is correct. Wonder if it could just be 1 bad injector causing 1 cylinder to be super lean. Probably wouldn’t show up any different at the o2 sensor if it was just 1 cylinder. Also only made 503whp. It was a hot day being 95 degrees out. Still think it should have been a little higher.
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      09-27-2019, 12:53 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokinJoe View Post
The sound is not what some would call a knocking sound like a rod knock or anything like that. It’s pre ignition which sounds like a tin can with marbles in it being shaken. Only happens under heavy load when the boost is ramping in hard. Very few videos capture the sound of pre ignition also known as spark knock.
so it makes the noise while you are on the throttle climbing rpm.. got it👍🏻
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