ECU Tune by Performing Imports

[Tylerstar]

If Im dropping 40 bills on a tune, Best believe Im dynoing that ISH!

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Tylerstar

If Im dropping 40 bills on a tune, Best believe Im dynoing that ISH!

And there we have it...

[Niko1414]

Originally Posted by ColdList

And there we have it...

Boom there it is

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by cpiguy

I'm one of those guys that has invested a fair bit of money in mods for my M5 including brand new HRE S101 I will pick up tomorrow. I'm a car fanatic and starting modding my cars 44 years ago. Yep, I bought a 1963 Ford Gallexy 500 XL with a 390 4 barrel and 4 speed. I immediately added headers, hurst shifter, ET wheels, Thrush mufflers, Sun tach, dual 4 barrels with an edlebrock high rise manifold. Yeah, I was just as crazy when I was 16.

Fast forward, and for a more recent experience, in October of 2009 I bought a brand new 2010 BMW M3 E92 and before I took delivery I had the dealer bolt on every Dinan mod available including their race exhaust and associated tune. I was extremely curious to see if I gained any real horsepower for 15 grand. Fortunately, my son has a brand new M3 4 door which is totally stock. We took both cars over to a local Dynojet shop for a comparison. Most stock M3's record 330hp to 340hp to the wheels. So, my son's car came in at 353hp and my car came in at 380hp.

To be honest, I was pretty disappointed with my gains for all that money. But that being said, there was no comparision when I drove his car and drove mine. We both agreed it was like night and day. My car felt way faster. So we found an empty back road on a Sunday, and sure enough, my car just kills his. I would estimate 8 car lengths from 30mph to 100mph.

Here's the final piece of the story. The dyno results said my son's car cranked out 20 more HP that the average M3, and remember his car is a sedan which is 200lb heavier that the coupe. Finale is we recently participated in an airfield 1/2 mile race day and my son had an opportunity to race a stock 2012 M3 DCT coupe, and crushed it by 4 car lengths proving that the dyno results adequatley represented the extra power his engine produces, for what ever reason. The other M3 owner was calling him a lier for not devaulging his modes. LOL You can just imagine what my M3 would have done to him.

So, my only point is the mods do make a difference, and even though our US dyno's are very different than the ones used in Germany, the difference any decent dyno registers in before and after mods is a resonable indicator of power gains.

With all due respect Arnie, I completely agree in that sentiment but the point is that you will not get ACCURATE reads on before and after so any comparisons drawn are invalid. The data is flawed. This is ONLY for the F10 M5 that I am speaking of. On the M3s that you own YES, you are 100% correct. On an E60 M5 you are correct too. It will not Dyno in the traditional sense (not going into a repetitive boring rant).

So, if the reads on before and after are incorrect you cannot say "I got 550 on the before and 640 on the after so I picked up 90 hp." The car is giving you crazy numbers to start with. Make sense?

One of the things that you must have present, for example, with the F10 M5, is 1:1 wind pressure. If the wheels are spinning 150 mph then you must have precisely 150 mph wind into the car ( not just a couple of big fans blowing "hard" air).

Shoot an email to Ron or Noelle. Hearing from me on this is like hearing it from anyone else. It just wont carry any weight. Best to hear from experts.

[bm5bullit]

Originally Posted by ColdList

With all due respect Arnie, I completely agree in that sentiment but the point is that you will not get ACCURATE reads on before and after so any comparisons drawn are invalid. The data is flawed. This is ONLY for the F10 M5 that I am speaking of. On the M3s that you own YES, you are 100% correct. On an E60 M5 you are correct too. It will not Dyno in the traditional sense (not going into a repetitive boring rant).

So, if the reads on before and after are incorrect you cannot say "I got 550 on the before and 640 on the after so I picked up 90 hp." The car is giving you crazy numbers to start with. Make sense?

One of the things that you must have present, for example, with the F10 M5, is 1:1 wind pressure. If the wheels are spinning 150 mph then you must have precisely 150 mph wind into the car ( not just a couple of big fans blowing "hard" air).

Shoot an email to Ron or Noelle. Hearing from me on this is like hearing it from anyone else. It just wont carry any weight. Best to hear from experts.

Coldlist - completely agree with you and with CPI guy on these different areas of experience. I too have been modding cars/jeeps/trucks for 35 plus years and currently working on a heavily modded restomod droptop Chevy Nova in the garage (takes up most of my "spare" funds). The Chevy LS guys experience the same difficulty in cracking the new ECU's that come out on a regular basis. GM also realized using that simulating 'exact road conditions" was critical in assessing true values in analyzing data that goes into evaluating/compiling ECU data which takes into account all the conditions that the customer will put their vehicles thru. The value of this simulated road data was actually started in the 50's and 60's when evaluating air conditioning systems and a/c compressors. These time/temperature/airflow charts were an industry standard for many years.

To say that BMW, Mercedes, GM, etc., are sophisticated computers would be an extreme understatement. These ECU's do not like varying or slight changes in dynos that is why it is wise to use exactly the same dynos and the same methods that BMW uses. But, once you mod, even slightly, you are at the mercy of every "tuner" out there to give you an honest assessment of how much rwhp you get because the dyno will deceive you due to the self-learning and adapting features of the ECU. Of course, part of this is also the anti-tampering features built into the ECU.

The bottom line is that some American made dynos are suspect because they allow a "fudge factor" and then you add the fact that the BMW ECU has a very strict protocol which should be followed. Yes, I do believe that dynos are not the last word; it is the track, whether it is straight, round or a combination of the two.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by bm5bullit

Coldlist - completely agree with you and with CPI guy on these different areas of experience. I too have been modding cars/jeeps/trucks for 35 plus years and currently working on a heavily modded restomod droptop Chevy Nova in the garage (takes up most of my "spare" funds). The Chevy LS guys experience the same difficulty in cracking the new ECU's that come out on a regular basis. GM also realized using that simulating 'exact road conditions" was critical in assessing true values in analyzing data that goes into evaluating/compiling ECU data which takes into account all the conditions that the customer will put their vehicles thru. The value of this simulated road data was actually started in the 50's and 60's when evaluating air conditioning systems and a/c compressors. These time/temperature/airflow charts were an industry standard for many years.

To say that BMW, Mercedes, GM, etc., are sophisticated computers would be an extreme understatement. These ECU's do not like varying or slight changes in dynos that is why it is wise to use exactly the same dynos and the same methods that BMW uses. But, once you mod, even slightly, you are at the mercy of every "tuner" out there to give you an honest assessment of how much rwhp you get because the dyno will deceive you due to the self-learning and adapting features of the ECU. Of course, part of this is also the anti-tampering features built into the ECU.

The bottom line is that some American made dynos are suspect because they allow a "fudge factor" and then you add the fact that the BMW ECU has a very strict protocol which should be followed. Yes, I do believe that dynos are not the last word; it is the track, whether it is straight, round or a combination of the two.

Right on.

I had just written the LONGEST response prior to your post and it did not post...ugh. Yours said EXACTLY what I was saying but you are apparently far better with brevity. Here's an very slightly abridged version that hopefully will make people understand or maybe believe what you and I are saying:

To be TOTALLY transparent...I DID Dyno my car right after getting my tune. It actually showed LESS HP than a stock F10 M5 that we subsequently put on the Dyno shortly after. It was done on the same Dyno, same day, same operator, EXACT same conditions, STARS PERFECTLY ALIGNED. :-) Then we put the cars on the street and mine was markedly faster. Explain that.

Well, as we had the cars on the machine we were doing some serious data logging. When the operator was reviewing the data he was shaking his head and saying "Look at this. This is very weird. See how the car is throttling up and down and doing all sorts of crazy things?". It was quite obvious that the DME was reacting to the Dyno EXACTLY the way that I was told that it would by both Ron and Noelle. Yet still, I had to completely freak out because at that time I still had the crazy belief that "if a Dyno says it then it is hard proof and that before and after data can be compared even if the numbers aren't exactly correct and I can surely compare against numbers from another car"-WRONG. I actually walked away from there actually BELIEVING this even though my car was far more responsive to the throttle and faster overall on the actual road, than the stock one that "showed" higher numbers on the Dyno. How crazy was I?! So I go back to Ron in my frenzied state, looking like a complete idiot, and I show him Dyno sheets and he laughs. He calls Noelle (they are very close friends) and Noelle doesn't even want to "discuss" those "ridiculous" Dyno results because of the inherently flawed Dyno practices and flat out lack of knowledge of operators as to how the car must be handled on the Dyno to get anything less than suspect and unusable data. In other words, it is seen as an exercise in futility. With the help (and generosity) of Noelle, we take my car back to stock, we clear ALL of the faults stored in the car (yes, the invisible ones everyone thinks just "disappear" after a Dyno run-if you ran on a Dyno your car has them stored right now), reload the tune, COMPLETELY reset all adaptations (incidentally, this was done via remote operator from Germany) and I let them take hold for 500 miles. I then install the DP and the exhaust and I end up with a very fast car. There are no faults, no codes, no glitches whatsoever. It is a very finely tuned machine that I truly am thrilled (quite literally) to drive. In the midst of my craziness, a get a very good de-programming (ie" crack in the head") of my notions of how to assess the F10 M5 via an explanation of the 26 page manual that outlines the proper Dyno methods for the F10 M5, which includes very heavy data logging and extremely precise comparison to very exact tables. This is way over my head (and over most (I say "most" because I do not want to lump in or discredit the finite few here with the rest, so let's just go with 99.99%) people on here) so I decide to listen to the experts ( a valuable practice I learned very early in business that has served me extremely well) who tell me "don't do it (Dyno) again".

I am very happy with my results. My car is fast, much faster than stock and it runs like a finely tuned machine. I could not ask for any more. I am grateful to Ron and Noelle and I learned a valuable lesson about "beliefs" vs. "facts". This is not the first time I have had to be schooled by Ron. Each time I eat crow. And those of you who know me personally know just how hard THAT is for me to swallow.

I find it very silly to listen to tuners. There have been so many claims out there and then you see how quickly they fade away. Case in point; one recent post by a tuner boasts 700+ hp and then everyone gets all worked up thinking that they can get this "tune". Turns out to be the same tune I have but with resistors on the wastegates-something you aren't likely to be getting on your car and will be getting at the peril of your DCT if you somehow manage to acquire it. THEY didn't even create the tune or do the wastegate mods. It was done for them. Lots of fantasy out there. Only way to have reality is to have either actual knowledge by having a tune or whatever it may be installed on your own car or on a car that you are very familiar with-both needing to be driven for thousands of miles with no issues before arriving at valid assessments of actual results.

I don't think you ever get exactly what you are told by tuners because it is impossible. All cars and all engines are different. Much like Arnie's son's M3 being faster than another stock M3. It just happens.

Incidentally, when I got my tune, I did not think that I felt what "80 hp" was supposed to feel like (although my good old butt Dyno really doesn't have any accurate bases for comparison). Frankly, Ron's car felt faster to me with the EXACT same tune-a noticeable amount. After I added the DP and exhaust, mine was now obviously faster. It is in fact ridiculously fast now, at least by my standards. I have never driven, ridden in or much less owned, a car nearly as fast. I have NO IDEA how much HP and torque I have gained. Could be 30,40,50,100+...got me. I don't care. I just know that I could not be happier. Honestly, any more would be very hard for me to put to the ground. After my own experience, I never will again give any credence to the obsessive nature by which people have to have their car at an exact gain to be happy (much less how the methods of measuring results to prove their happiness have been proven to be inherently wrong yet the placebo effect still sets in). Improving is improving and there will always be variances no matter what you do or who does it for you. Do it. Like it. Drive it. Love it. .

You will not read a more honest post than this about a tune or anything of this nature out there.

To our gorgeous and insanely high performing cars-each and every individual one!

[bm5bullit]

Thanks, Coldlist for sharing your real-world experiences. I know you didn't have to and probably didn't want to. I went thru this with my C6 Z06 and the modding frenzy that I went thru. I got one of the first cars that hit the ground and I was genuinely impressed by the technology in the car. I started modding and the car seemed to run little worse. I listened to the expert in LS tech at the time and fixed everything with a proper ECU tune. In the end, I had close to 570-580 rwhp in a 3300 pound car. Easily the most "fun" performance car that money could buy for the price at that time. Roll into the throttle in first thru fourth gear and break the tires loose. My wife would not ride in the car in the end because of the power, noise, etc.

But it was from this car that I learned the most about the newer generation ECU's....... and I am sure it will continue as long as I keep an open mind.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by bm5bullit

Thanks, Coldlist for sharing your real-world experiences. I know you didn't have to and probably didn't want to. I went thru this with my C6 Z06 and the modding frenzy that I went thru. I got one of the first cars that hit the ground and I was genuinely impressed by the technology in the car. I starting modding and the car seemed to run little worse. I listened to the expert in LS tech at the time and fixed everything with a proper ECU tune. In the end, I had close to 570-580 rwhp in a 3300 pound car. Easily the most "fun" performance car that money could buy for the price at that time. Roll into the throttle in first thru fourth gear and break the tire loose. My wife would not ride in the car in the end because of the power, noise, etc.

But it was from this car that I learned the most about the newer generation ECU's....... and I am sure it will continue as long as I keep an open mind.

No sweat. You see why Ron will not want to deal with another person(s) like me now? Took a lot of his screaming and telling me I was an idiot to get me under control. He and I are very good at "frank" talks!-lol

THAT sounds like a fun car man! Wow! Yeah, it is all very hard for people to "get" until they go through it. You get "data" that tells you things then you put the car on the road and it is entirely opposite. These cars are getting too darn smart! I now make sure I talk to mine and tell it how much I love it just in case it is actually listening.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Dear ColdList,

Dude, can you pretty pretty please put your car on a dyno and show not only myself but the entire community the 80hp gain that the tune is supposedly making? I only ask you this because you are the only one that I know that has the Performing Imports tune on your F10 M5. I will even send you a box of cookies if you do this!

I am simply trying to get some verifiable undeniable information out to the community that the tune is legit. I have spoken with VF Engineering, ESS Tuning, and Switzer, and all of them are saying that although it is not impossible for a BMW Development software to produce that kind of power gain, but as of right now none of them are aware of such a tune that is positively producing that kind of power gain. ESS says that have access to BMW Development tune as well but only adds about 30hp and the other companies do have the BMW Development software tune for the F10 M5 right now that makes about 30hp as well, but nothing close to 80hp or higher. I've been told that the tune for the ~30hp gain was leaked a long time ago, and that ESS has even tested it over in Europe. They even put 100 octane in an F10 M5 with that tune and were able to make about 15hp extra on top of the 30hp gain the tune makes. Additionally I have learned that anybody out there offering a BMW Development Software tune is actually using software that is for Euro-Spec F10 M5s, and that people who have put this Euro-Spec software have experience anomalies and weird problems on their U.S.-Spec M5s I'm only talking about BMW Development software here and not anything that each company is producing in house.

For now the burden of proof rests with you my friend, or perhaps someone else that you might know in the Atlanta area that has the Performing Imports tune also. I think the community should be aware of the truth of whether or not this tune you currently have on your car is really making those kind of claims on power. As I have said before in other threads, so far I have seen no dyno's, no YouTube Video races against cars at similar power levels, and no vbox numbers as to the performance gains of this tune from Performining Imports.

So if you get a chance, can you please either put your vehicle on a dyno-dynamics machine, or a dyno-jet machine. A Mustang Dyno won't really work because the correction factor can be manipulated or put in wrong. Or shoot a video of you racing a car in your area with around the same power, I'm calculating that you should be around at least 650hp to the crank with your tune and current mods. Or even procure a vbox and use it to get some acceleration and timing data.

I have always been interested in the Performing Imports Tune from Ron and even after talking with him personally in the past I simply cannot commit to spending that amount of money without metrical proof of gains in performance. Unfortunately word of mouth is not going to work for me. Others can commit or do what they feel, but I must make sure I am getting what I am paying for. Bottom line, I've gotta see the numbers dude. Or as Jerry Maguire once said, "Show me the money!"

Your Bestest Friend,

RPiM5

My advise would be to get in touch with Franz Simon at Manhart and talk with him about your M5 tuning questions.

Really knowledgeable guy and I learned some stuff that I can't share, but which really opened my eyes to some of the stuff going on with these cars right now

They've done the before and after dyno runs and got 122 more RWHP. They even have some stuff on there that no one else has (at the moment) to get this kind of gains. This is NOT exactly the same setup that is done by others They have done the Vbox runs to give you some acceleration times.

After what I've learned during their visit, Manhart are the people you should talk to

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Boss330

My advise would be to get in touch with Franz Simon at Manhart and talk with him about your M5 tuning questions.

Really knowledgeable guy and I learned some stuff that I can't share, but which really opened my eyes to some of the stuff going on with these cars right now

They've done the before and after dyno runs and got 122 more RWHP. They even have some stuff on there that no one else has (at the moment) to get this kind of gains. This is NOT exactly the same setup that is done by others They have done the Vbox runs to give you some acceleration times.

After what I've learned during their visit, Manhart are the people you should talk to

Some "behind the curtains" stuff was not shared with you my friend. Here is the litmus test: Have someone from the US call Manhart and get their F10 M5 "tuned" and then report it to the board. Not a Euro car-a US VIN. Will not happen. If I am wrong, I will eat my words.

Until we see any of these "tunes" over here actually running it's pretty much case closed.

People can be "doing" all kinds of things and of course these motors can EASILY be made to produce a LOT more power. It is just that a combination of overall safety and performance limits of the components of the rest of the car (ie: DCT) are not capable for an extended period of time without serious modification. We can make my car blow almost anything away for a few runs but should I want to keep it and drive it reliably then we stay within limits. So as far as these "tunes" and "stages" that tuners boast, for all of us road drivers, you see, THAT is the missing element in all of this talk. NO ONE HAS IT.

And if you want to do Manhart a favor don't imply that their TUNE is something that is "NOT exactly the same" because you will ruffle the same feathers when it is seen here. They do not perform the "tune" to the ECU themselves no matter what you heard. You may want to clarify that some of the COMPONENTS are not the same.

There is a reason that you were told that you "cannot share" and I am sure they are the same reason that the info was removed from their site. They are not giving YOU some "double top secret car world forever changing undercover information" man. They just don't want to be saying something in a certain way that could create issues with people who do certain things for them. They are great guys over there. NOT questioning their abilities whatsoever. However, some of the "talk" that they don't want you to disseminate sort of discredits people we mutually know so maybe it is better to not even say "I can't say" and "NOT different" because that is not a good place to go. Best thing would be for them to put out a product and say "Here is our product. It does THIS. Here is how you can buy it.". As I stated above, when THAT happens and a US car has it successfully installed then we have what we call "verifiable" PROOF of something available that is useful to us daily drivers-not an insanely tweaked car with mods installed that none of us could ever logically have use for on the street. In other words, I "get" that these things exist but it is sort of like the "concept" cars you see at car shows. Really cool to admire and "ooohhh" and "aaaahhh" about but not much more than a showpiece. Now, my OPINION of what I call a "tune" may differ from the opinions of others but I think it should be something that is universally available and applicable the general F10 M5 owner population to use on their cars every day, not just a car built to show us what can be done to max out an engine. I can watch reruns of "PINKS" for this-lol!

[bm5bullit]

I guess when I started this thread, the intent was to provide an opportunity for a Group Tune at a convenient centralized location, with a tuner that has a stellar reputation. I assumed that any interested forum members would do their own, or have done their due diligence and would have come up with the same conclusions that I did. Just as have been covered in the previous two posts, there are other well known tuners in Europe and elsewhere that have well know reputations and customer base. But, these tuners require that you remove your ECU and ship it overseas and that is where the gigantic rub just begins. This may not seem to be a major hurdle at all until there is trouble or parts breakage due to "aggressive tuning".

With regards to US tuners, there are plenty of them around and the majority of them have stellar reputations for service/satisfaction. I would not hesitate to purchase a tune from the ones that have a good reputation especially the ones that have provided such tunes to the E60 M board members (which I did).

This is the part where the rubber meets the road - my research and due diligence revealed that only one tuner has surfaced that meets all the criteria that I was looking for - Performing Imports. I know that a few other US tuners will eventually come out with reliable, reputable and responsible tunes that will appeal to the F10 market. That is not the point - all of these tuners came out of the development gate chomping at the bit to be able to provide tuning products at the same time. R&D takes time and patience which is the point that they are at.

Please read up on Ron and Mr. Otto Noelle - the research was done ages ago and has been fine-tuned for new models that BMW produces. They do not have to start with a blank sheet. HONESTLY - WHICH TUNER AND THEIR PRODUCTS WOULD YOU CHOOSE ONCE YOU DO YOUR RESEARCH????? Think about this long and hard then do it again. You will come up with the same answer.

[Boss330]

Coldlist: Obviously this thread is (was) supposed to be for the US M5 owners. Kind of forgot that. Not sure what you've heard or been told. But I know what I've SEEN You mentioned work done by others. Sometimes what we believe is done by "others" are actually done by someone not having their name on the car. I have seen some of what Manhart does and all I can say is that some of my previous beliefs got shattered (even stuff that I had allways thought was made by a certain company was changed...).

To quote the magazine "European Car" from a few years back:

"(MHR) is responsible for a good few cars that have eventually surfaced with another badge on the hood. He also spent more than a few years developing engines for BMW in house."

http://www.europeancarweb.com/featur...r/viewall.html

(This was written before they moved to their new premises in Wuppertal)

The info actually has an impact on some of the work I'm in charge of...

Regarding "behind the curtain" stuff, remember that works both ways sometimes I might not have all the "behind the curtain" info, but then neither might you...

Obviously this car is here in Europe and is not available for you guys in the US. But this is a car that is used and is driven all over Europe. So I believe it's not a impractical car that no one can use. I've driven it and experienced it's driveability and performance first hand Whether this will be available in the US must be answered by Manhart and not me.

The car will be at a German car magazine for testing. It was supposed to be a comparison test between 4 or 5 tuned M5's. All had confirmed, but when the magazine made the Manhart MH5 S the final car on the list, all the others apparently pulled out of the comparison... So, now it's only gonna be the MH5 S.

Anyway, they have done the Vbox runs and posted their times. Can't you do the same with your car? Then we'll know if this is the same spec/power level

Once again, I appologise for posting this European tuner info on a thread that obviously was meant for the US M5 owners.

If you do the due dilligence, my guess is that Manhart comes out very strong for any Euro M5 owner looking for a tune

They have made a product that they can show to the customer and say, Here is what this car can do. You can buy the same tune and expect the same performance.

Some info from their website:

http://www.manhart-racing.de/english...mance-kits.php

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Coldlist: Obviously this thread is (was) supposed to be for the US M5 owners. Kind of forgot that. Not sure what you've heard or been told. But I know what I've SEEN You mentioned work done by others. Sometimes what we believe is done by "others" are actually done by someone not having their name on the car. I have seen some of what Manhart does and all I can say is that some of my previous beliefs got shattered (even stuff that I had allways thought was made by a certain company was changed...).

To quote the magazine "European Car" from a few years back:

"(MHR) is responsible for a good few cars that have eventually surfaced with another badge on the hood. He also spent more than a few years developing engines for BMW in house."

http://www.europeancarweb.com/featur...r/viewall.html

(This was written before they moved to their new premises in Wuppertal)

The info actually has an impact on some of the work I'm in charge of...

Regarding "behind the curtain" stuff, remember that works both ways sometimes I might not have all the "behind the curtain" info, but then neither might you...

Obviously this car is here in Europe and is not available for you guys in the US. But this is a car that is used and is driven all over Europe. So I believe it's not a impractical car that no one can use. I've driven it and experienced it's driveability and performance first hand Whether this will be available in the US must be answered by Manhart and not me.

The car will be at a German car magazine for testing. It was supposed to be a comparison test between 4 or 5 tuned M5's. All had confirmed, but when the magazine made the Manhart MH5 S the final car on the list, all the others apparently pulled out of the comparison... So, now it's only gonna be the MH5 S.

Anyway, they have done the Vbox runs and posted their times. Can't you do the same with your car? Then we'll know if this is the same spec/power level

Once again, I appologise for posting this European tuner info on a thread that obviously was meant for the US M5 owners.

If you do the due dilligence, my guess is that Manhart comes out very strong for any Euro M5 owner looking for a tune

They have made a product that they can show to the customer and say, Here is what this car can do. You can buy the same tune and expect the same performance.

Some info from their website:

http://www.manhart-racing.de/english...mance-kits.php

To respond very succinctly:

1. As admitted, this is not for US cars. And "Whether this will be available in the US must be answered by Manhart and not me."-this is not true. They are not able to distribute the tune to the US. Not their choice at all.

2. "Regarding "behind the curtain" stuff, remember that works both ways sometimes I might not have all the "behind the curtain" info, but then neither might you..." I may not have it ALL but I DO know who gives them the tune, the DP and the silencers. I know they are NOT produced by Manhart.

3. "They have made a product that they can show to the customer and say, Here is what this car can do. You can buy the same tune and expect the same performance."

Well...
(straight from their website description of their "Stage 4" system.)
• MHR Software Remapping
• MHR Performance Downpipes (Sport-Kats)
• MHR Rear Silencer (axleback) without valve control
• MHR Carbon Air Intake System by Gruppe M

First 4 of 5 elements-NOT produced by Manhart and again NOT available to a US VIN car.

4. "Then we'll know if this is the same spec/power level". This is NOT the same spec/power level as my car. I never claimed that. Their car has the same software. It also has resistors on the waste gates. And once again...done by the people who produce the tune for them-NOT by Manhart.

So again, not discrediting Manhart. What a VERY COOL company. Who in the world would want to criticize a company that spends so much time making unbelievable cars? I just like when credit goes where deserved.

All I was saying is two things: 1. They do not MAKE the tune in house. It is done for them.-just ask them. They will tell you if you ask. 2: This was inaccurate info to suggest that it was available to US cars.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by bm5bullit

I guess when I started this thread, the intent was to provide an opportunity for a Group Tune at a convenient centralized location, with a tuner that has a stellar reputation. I assumed that any interested forum members would do their own, or have done their due diligence and would have come up with the same conclusions that I did. Just as have been covered in the previous two posts, there are other well known tuners in Europe and elsewhere that have well know reputations and customer base. But, these tuners require that you remove your ECU and ship it overseas and that is where the gigantic rub just begins. This may not seem to be a major hurdle at all until there is trouble or parts breakage due to "aggressive tuning".

With regards to US tuners, there are plenty of them around and the majority of them have stellar reputations for service/satisfaction. I would not hesitate to purchase a tune from the ones that have a good reputation especially the ones that have provided such tunes to the E60 M board members (which I did).

This is the part where the rubber meets the road - my research and due diligence revealed that only one tuner has surfaced that meets all the criteria that I was looking for - Performing Imports. I know that a few other US tuners will eventually come out with reliable, reputable and responsible tunes that will appeal to the F10 market. That is not the point - all of these tuners came out of the development gate chomping at the bit to be able to provide tuning products at the same time. R&D takes time and patience which is the point that they are at.

Please read up on Ron and Mr. Otto Noelle - the research was done ages ago and has been fine-tuned for new models that BMW produces. They do not have to start with a blank sheet. HONESTLY - WHICH TUNER AND THEIR PRODUCTS WOULD YOU CHOOSE ONCE YOU DO YOUR RESEARCH????? Think about this long and hard then do it again. You will come up with the same answer.

Well said. Just to make it easy for anyone who doesn't want to take time to research:

Karl Otto Noelle is the brains behind the legendary Alpina Turbo technologies. These have been adapted to every BMW turbo in use today (135, 335, 535, M5). Turbo BMW motors would not exist in their current form today if it were not for Mr. Noelle. He is simply a legendary figure in the BMW world.

I cannot confirm this however I will state it and let you chew on it. It is also said that Porsche developed it's very first turbo by studying an early Alpina motor developed by Karl Otto Noelle and adapting it to Porsche.

Ron Trochelman is one of the long standing top tier Dinan tuners in the country. He is in fact a very close friend of Steve Dinan and has many die hard fans as customers (me included) that will not allow anyone else to ever tune their vehicles. Many ship cars from out of state to his shop in Alpharetta. Ron is also a friend and business colleague of Karl Otto and a person whom I personally consider to be a friend as well. I am fortunate enough to have personally been introduced to Mr. Otto by Ron via phone recently and I have to say, that as a BMW enthusiast, t was likely the greatest highlight in my many years of owning BMWs and being a real enthusiast. We spoke personally about my car on the phone and via email. He gave me recommendations and I acquired the parts to go along with those recommendations directly from him through Ron and Performing Imports. Noelle personally got involved to help reset the entire car and with get it tuned properly. The car has all the parts installed and is nothing less than superb. Once again, only problem-wheel spin.

I don't claim to have the fastest M5 in the world. I am sure it is far from it (well not too far) . I do claim to have one that is very properly done. If I ever figure out how to launch the car properly, I may very well time it for the sake of doing so. Until then it is purely pointless. I am highly convinced that it would require racing tires, which I am unfamiliar with, as I do NOT race my car. I have less than zero interest in equipping my car with any sort of race tire just to run a 0-60 test, the results of which I do not care enough of to lose any sleep. My guess is that I am at about 3 secs if/when it grips (this is an estimate given by Ron and Noelle who note that it very well could be sub 3 if it hooks well.) I have no clue. Can't do it. Tried to launch it today in D3 and the back end kicked out severely shifting into 3rd after wheel spin through 1st and 2nd. It was chilly (50's) and moist out today-neither are good conditions for my Michelin SS tires. This is a very typical result of trying to launch my car. Crazy stuff happens. See my MDM thread.

I do not make up anything I post on here. As you can see, the "stuff" I get is from what you might call "credible" sources. You be the judge.

Once again. All of the S63 TU OBD tunes you see from "tuners" are NOT made by those tuners-period.

Cheers

[bm5bullit]

Cold list - so just to be clear; I take it that Ron from Performing Imports will not be tuning any cars in Scottsdale?

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by bm5bullit

Cold list - so just to be clear; I take it that will not be tuning any cars in Scottsdale?

I am just telling you what Ron told me to post. You can always call him if you like.

[M-bitious]

Read it all just now. Let's agree dynoes in the US are useless.
What I like about Manhart is that they posted as much info as they could, including the important v-box runs. Therefore I know I get what I pay for. With your tune, however good it surely is, I don't know what I buy. I am sure the American buyers want to be able to judge if the investment is worth their while. A dyno butt surely isn't enough. If these cars can't be dynoed, then at least produce a before and after v-box. It will help sales I am sure and will make the product more credible. Right now I am just wondering what you guys will be getting exactly when you part with 4,000 USD?

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by M-bitious

Read it all just now. Let's agree dynoes in the US are useless.
What I like about Manhart is that they posted as much info as they could, including the important v-box runs. Therefore I know I get what I pay for. With your tune, however good it surely is, I don't know what I buy. I am sure the American buyers want to be able to judge if the investment is worth their while. A dyno butt surely isn't enough. If these cars can't be dynoed, then at least produce a before and after v-box. It will help sales I am sure and will make the product more credible. Right now I am just wondering what you guys will be getting exactly when you part with 4,000 USD?

Agreed mostly. Manhart does a very good job. Can't question the Vbox data and you know what you get. I would be extremely comfortable with my purchase from them as well. The tune is the EXACT same tune. Same person does it for them. It is identical. It is not the tune alone that makes that car so powerful. Nor is it on mine. The tune is merely a part of their packaging in their "Stages". This is why I have stated repeatedly that if you are going to do the tune that you should simultaneously do the downpipes. This is when the car transforms. And these are also the EXACT SAME downpipes that Manhart uses. The are also supplied by the same person. It is all available here in the US right now at Performing Imports. All the other discussion about Dynos and Vboxes aside, if you want a silly fast car this is the definitive solution. You just need to commit to doing the full job and do it.

[bm5bullit]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Agreed mostly. Manhart does a very good job. Can't question the Vbox data and you know what you get. I would be extremely comfortable with my purchase from them as well. The tune is the EXACT same tune. Same person does it for them. It is identical. It is not the tune alone that makes that car so powerful. Nor is it on mine. The tune is merely a part of their packaging in their "Stages". This is why I have stated repeatedly that if you are going to do the tune that you should simultaneously do the downpipes. This is when the car transforms. And these are also the EXACT SAME downpipes that Manhart uses. The are also supplied by the same person. It is all available here in the US right now at Performing Imports. All the other discussion about Dynos and Vboxes aside, if you want a silly fast car this is the definitive solution. You just need to commit to doing the full job and do it.

I read between the lines the very first time I read your information about the tune. I then did my due diligence and double-checked the data which is how we got here. I did get that the license (or tune) is the same one that is distributed on the other side of the pond. It can be modified by "tuners" but it is not the wise thing to do. This is exactly what happens (with most makes on the planet) when the car manufacturers produce and "unbreakable" or "un-crackable" ECU for their various car/truck models. This thinking by the manufacturers is not flawed because all the ECUs, ECMs or DMEs will eventually be hacked by someone out there. The manufacturers also are very aware when this happens as they have people lurking on the relevant forums or other sites. It is a cat-and-mouse game that is also impacted by market sales, market share, and what their customers can handle responsibly (stupid horsepower in the wrong hands - picture AK-47's available at your convenience stores, both in the wrong hands are not a good thing).

As a prime example, a similar thing occurred (as our tune) happened here in the US with Jeep Rubicons and most of the Jeep owners that wanted V8 power. I was one of those customers (love Jeeps also) that had to have more power. Chrysler V8 ECU's and the related powertrain modules seemed to be impossible to crack by anyone, much less made to interface properly with the 6 cylinder components. It took about 1.5 years for someone to crack it and soon this Off-Road shop was cranking out Hemi conversions for the Jeep Rubicon. The interface of all of the components with the Jeep was so good that Chrysler Performance came calling. A deal was formulated between the two parties - if your Hemi conversion will pass our durability testing, we will "help" you with additional engineering, drivetrains and an exclusive license from Chrysler. The conversion passed with flying colors and the rest is history. I got my new 2010 Rubicon converted to a Hemi and I was pretty happy with it. A funny thing happened last year though. Chrysler dealers now sell the conversion over the counter - engine/trans/radiator/hoses/harness, etc. But, they have priced the conversion so high (approx. $ 30K) that the off-road shops still have the advantage. I talked to the guy that was one of the parties that helped develop this package and asked him why the manufacturer was so reluctant to release this years ago as a factory option. His answer was that the engineers at Chrysler feared that more parts breakage would happen under warranty and that the increase in power was not for the irresponsible/inexperienced driver (picture rollovers and passengers flying out).

So, in the end, as it relates to our cars, these tunes/licenses are released to responsible parties. Sometimes they sell them as is and sometimes not. As good as the best tuner in the world is, with the best facility in the world; it is hard to beat a tune that has had some of the best engineers available put their time/effort into it. For me, I will do as the Vette guys preach; practice your driving technique, drive your car hard and practice shifting (not necessarily applicable to our cars) which will yield better results.

By the way Coldlist, I will call Ron.



.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by bm5bullit

I read between the lines the very first time I read your information about the tune. I then did my due diligence and double-checked the data which is how we got here. I did get that the license (or tune) is the same one that is distributed on the other side of the pond. It can be modified by "tuners" but it is not the wise thing to do. This is exactly what happens (with most makes on the planet) when the car manufacturers produce and "unbreakable" or "un-crackable" ECU for their various car/truck models. This thinking by the manufacturers is not flawed because all the ECUs, ECMs or DMEs will eventually be hacked by someone out there. The manufacturers also are very aware when this happens as they have people lurking on the relevant forums or other sites. It is a cat-and-mouse game that is also impacted by market sales, market share, and what their customers can handle responsibly (stupid horsepower in the wrong hands - picture AK-47's available at your convenience stores, both in the wrong hands are not a good thing).

As a prime example, a similar thing occurred (as our tune) happened here in the US with Jeep Rubicons and most of the Jeep owners that wanted V8 power. I was one of those customers (love Jeeps also) that had to have more power. Chrysler V8 ECU's and the related powertrain modules seemed to be impossible to crack by anyone, much less made to interface properly with the 6 cylinder components. It took about 1.5 years for someone to crack it and soon this Off-Road shop was cranking out Hemi conversions for the Jeep Rubicon. The interface of all of the components with the Jeep was so good that Chrysler Performance came calling. A deal was formulated between the two parties - if your Hemi conversion will pass our durability testing, we will "help" you with additional engineering, drivetrains and an exclusive license from Chrysler. The conversion passed with flying colors and the rest is history. I got my new 2010 Rubicon converted to a Hemi and I was pretty happy with it. A funny thing happened last year though. Chrysler dealers now sell the conversion over the counter - engine/trans/radiator/hoses/harness, etc. But, they have priced the conversion so high (approx. $ 30K) that the off-road shops still have the advantage. I talked to the guy that was one of the parties that helped develop this package and asked him why the manufacturer was so reluctant to release this years ago as a factory option. His answer was that the engineers at Chrysler feared that more parts breakage would happen under warranty and that the increase in power was not for the irresponsible/inexperienced driver (picture rollovers and passengers flying out).

So, in the end, as it relates to our cars, these tunes/licenses are released to responsible parties. Sometimes they sell them as is and sometimes not. As good as the best tuner in the world is, with the best facility in the world; it is hard to beat a tune that has had some of the best engineers available put their time/effort into it. For me, I will do as the Vette guys preach; practice your driving technique, drive your car hard and practice shifting (not necessarily applicable to our cars) which will yield better results.

By the way Coldlist, I will call Ron.

.

[bm5bullit]

To any members that are still interested in the Group Tune in Scottsdale - I just spoke to Ron and he is still able to come out and do the tune. Any of you that want to Dyno your car afterwards - you are on your own. It seems that dyno-ing the car really screws up the DME (even on a stocker) and BMW is supposed to come out with a letter and tech bulletin on it. They may even void your warranty.

By the way - any other form of performance measurement is okay, V-Box, quarter mile, etc.. I think a V-box would be the first measurement that should be taken. Also, I have noticed that the other US tuners are suspiciously quiet about this thread. HMMMMM.

Please pm me for any other details.

[M-bitious]

@ Coldlist.
In post 54 you say that the Manhart tune is different from the US one. Now you say they are identical? So far I have only seen Manhart step upto the plate and provide solid proof of the stage 4 package they sell. I really would like to see the same from P.I. so the US board members can compare.