Dyno Tested: New RK Autowerks CF Cold Air Intakes

[TheHouseWon]

Speaking of accordion style tubes in OEM intakes, why are they used universally across so many platforms? Is it their flexibility that attracts or their efficient flow?

Also, does carbon fiber heat soak less than aluminum? Does CF heat soak less than the OEM plastic?

Thx

[Sales@RKautowerks]

Originally Posted by TheHouseWon

Speaking of accordion style tubes in OEM intakes, why are they used universally across so many platforms? Is it their flexibility that attracts or their efficient flow?

Also, does carbon fiber heat soak less than aluminum? Does CF heat soak less than the OEM plastic?

Thx

Can you elaborate on "many platforms?"

They are extremely flexible, that is the primary purpose for their use. You lose a little bit in terms of flow, you're tripping the flow over each accordian rib, but it's worth that loss because you prevent components that are rigid from being damaged.

Regarding the heat soak question, this should answer it.


Thermal conductivity is the quantity of heat transmitted through a unit thickness, in a direction normal to a surface of unit area, because of a unit temperature gradient, under steady conditions. In other words it's a measure of how easily heat flows through a material.

There are a number of systems of measures depending on metric or imperial units.

1 W/(m.K) = 1 W/(m.oC) = 0.85984 kcal/(hr.m.oC) = 0.5779 Btu/(ft.hr.oF)

This table is only for comparison. The units are W/(m.K)
(lower the number the better)

Air .024
Aluminium 250
Concrete .4 - .7
Carbon Steel 54
Mineral Wool insulation .04
Plywood .13
Quartz 3
Pyrex Glass 1
Pine .12
Carbon Fiber Reinforced Epoxy 24





Here's some more on the coefficient of thermal expansion

This is a measure of how much a material expands and contracts when the temperature goes up or down.

Units are in Inch / inch degree F, as in other tables, the units are not so important as the comparison.

Steel 7
Aluminium 13
Kevlar 3 or lower
Carbon Fiber woven 2 or less
Carbon fiber unidirectional minus 1 to +8
Fiberglass 7-8
Brass 11
Carbon fiber can have a broad range of CTE's, -1 to 8+, depending on the direction measured, the fabric weave, the precursor material, Pan based (high strength, higher CTE) or Pitch based (high modulus/stiffness, lower CTE).

In a high enough mast differences in Coefficients of thermal expansion of various materials can slightly modify the rig tensions.

Low Coefficient of Thermal expansion makes carbon fiber suitable for applications where small movements can be critical. Telescope and other optical machinery is one such application.

http://www.christinedemerchant.com/c...teristics.html


Thanks
-R

[TheHouseWon]

I meant platforms to mean different car manufacturers: Honda, Infiniti, MBZ, Ford, etc

Edit: thanks for the detailed explanation, I should have paid more attention in physics class!

[Sales@RKautowerks]

Originally Posted by TheHouseWon

I meant platforms to mean different car manufacturers: Honda, Infiniti, MBZ, Ford, etc

It's the flexibility, that is the driving force behind it. Completely isolates the rigid portion from the moving portion. When you have silicon couplers, they don't flex down the center of flow travel. That creates them to be rigid. Hump hose couplers should be use, not what you see many use, straight pieces. Here is what i'm talking about.

This is a hump hose coupler


This is a straight coupler


-R

[TheHouseWon]

Found this on the other site. What exactly are we looking at?

[ur20v]

Raza,

Why is there a difference between a 2013 and 2015 in the above graphs, I didn't know they changed anything. Is the 'port' the ~30mm hole in the bottom air box half?

[allmotor_2000]

DME adapts by changing the ST and LT trims. However it never would run super lean >5K RPM even if you just plugged in a mod and went WOT. All the adaptation does is adjust based on the new average. This may take a few cycles but it's not like it runs any different. The only secondary impact is that other parameters like timing may be influenced by the new 'average' - but this is all in the DME maps.

It's like when I dyno at 22psi and then immediately dyno at 28psi - a good 100+whp. Car doesn't need to 'adapt'... 1st pull or even after 20 pulls it still makes the same power at 28psi. An intake is nowhere close in terms of airflow to a 6psi increase.

If the car really had to adapt it would keep gaining power - which it does not.

My $0.02 on adaptation.

[Sales@RKautowerks]

Originally Posted by TheHouseWon

Found this on the other site. What exactly are we looking at?

Originally Posted by ur20v

Raza,

Why is there a difference between a 2013 and 2015 in the above graphs, I didn't know they changed anything. Is the 'port' the ~30mm hole in the bottom air box half?

The F10, from my understanding, came with 2 MAYBE 3 different configurations for the airbox. For the 2013 model, the velocity stack port is closed. There is an opening on the bottom of the airbox that allows additional air in. This port open yield more power, one of the subtle things bmw did to increase power on the competition package.

So in my data, 2013 is with the port closed and charcoal filter in, 2015 is with the port open and a velocity stack inside the system.

simplifying things

1) column B - 2013 M5, closed port, charcoal filter installed
2) column C - "2015" M5, open port, charcoal filter installed
3) columb D - open port with velocity stack, charcoal filter removed
4) column E - RK autowerk intakes
5) column F - MSR intakes
6) column G - closed port, charcoal filter removed


This explains why people see the different benefits with dyno graphs on intake configurations, if you have a 2013, obviously you'll see the most. If you're running the velocity stack port and no charcoal, this is the least amount. That's why we advertise a range of delta power for the intakes, not just 1 number.

[ur20v]

Thanks Raza

As I thought.

I would guess the 'velocity' stact is just a sound muffler for the hole they introduced in the air box, its the wrong way round to work otherwise.

[ur20v]

Originally Posted by allmotor_2000

DME adapts by changing the ST and LT trims. However it never would run super lean >5K RPM even if you just plugged in a mod and went WOT. All the adaptation does is adjust based on the new average. This may take a few cycles but it's not like it runs any different. The only secondary impact is that other parameters like timing may be influenced by the new 'average' - but this is all in the DME maps.

It's like when I dyno at 22psi and then immediately dyno at 28psi - a good 100+whp. Car doesn't need to 'adapt'... 1st pull or even after 20 pulls it still makes the same power at 28psi. An intake is nowhere close in terms of airflow to a 6psi increase.

If the car really had to adapt it would keep gaining power - which it does not.

My $0.02 on adaptation.

Totally agree Ram, the TMAP, MAP and lamda and DME tables can keep everything in check for these changes- what the LT does is make the car less reliant on the lamda by moving the base setting.

[Sales@RKautowerks]

Originally Posted by ur20v

Thanks Raza

As I thought.

I would guess the 'velocity' stact is just a sound muffler for the hole they introduced in the air box, its the wrong way round to work otherwise.

It's actually the right way around, it's scavenging pressure, not air velocity.

So that's not a velocity stack, that's a diffuser. Further proving that anyone who has a velocity stack in their intake system is doing it wrong on a forced induction car.

[Sales@RKautowerks]

The reason why you want to scavenge pressure instead of velocity is flow seperation. If the flow hits the compressor blade at too fast of a speed, you can get it to go passed mach 1 depending on the blade design. I can't remember which portion of the blade, i'd have to bust out a turbo-machinery book. But that's why you want to scavenge pressure when possible.

Here's a diagram of what is going in in a subsonic regime.




So i'll ask again M6beast...how are you compressing the flow again.

-R

[m6beast]

Originally Posted by Raza@RKautowerks

The reason why you want to scavenge pressure instead of velocity is flow seperation. If the flow hits the compressor blade at too fast of a speed, you can get it to go passed mach 1 depending on the blade design. I can't remember which portion of the blade, i'd have to bust out a turbo-machinery book. But that's why you want to scavenge pressure when possible.

Here's a diagram of what is going in in a subsonic regime.




So i'll ask again M6beast...how are you compressing the flow again.

-R

Razina its very simple, MSR intake on completely stock m5 before and after knocked off .5 seconds vbox 60-130 and a Moded M5 at the track knocked off .4-.5 seconds and gained 4-5mph in the 1/4 mile with identical 60ft. Do some real testing on the street or track before you start questioning my proven gains over and over, I guarantee your intake will not come close. Been on several M5/M6's for the last three years with happy customers, sorry you're trying to do anything and everything to sell your product. I understand you don't get it and and don't expect you to but I do appreciate you comparing the MSR intake as the leading intake design and how you can try and take its design and make it better. Thank you and I'm honored that you're comparing MSR intake as the leading intake in the industry.
For those who would like to see all the data testing Dyno vbox and track please email info@mstreetracing.com and once again thanks for all the documentation you present to the forum members great write up!

[blackbeast06]

A lot of information being disseminated in this thread. That's the power of the forums being put to good use. The bickering is just an expense to the shared knowledge. I'm no rocket scientist or intake developer but I do know a little about fluid mechanics. Bench flow tests give you straight up numbers and unskewed data. Street racing gives you many variables and half truths (people fib about what mods are done). Personally I tend to back the products of those with solid data that represent themselves in a professional manner.

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by blackbeast06

A lot of information being disseminated in this thread. That's the power of the forums being put to good use. The bickering is just an expense to the shared knowledge. I'm no rocket scientist or intake developer but I do know a little about fluid mechanics. Bench flow tests give you straight up numbers and unskewed data. Street racing gives you many variables and half truths (people fib about what mods are done). Personally I tend to back the products of those with solid data that represent themselves in a professional manner.

Which is what @m6beast has always done and I'm sure is appreciated.

[MSIXCARBON]

Originally Posted by blackbeast06

A lot of information being disseminated in this thread. That's the power of the forums being put to good use. The bickering is just an expense to the shared knowledge. I'm no rocket scientist or intake developer but I do know a little about fluid mechanics. Bench flow tests give you straight up numbers and unskewed data. Street racing gives you many variables and half truths (people fib about what mods are done). Personally I tend to back the products of those with solid data that represent themselves in a professional manner.

THIS.

Couple it with OEM- like build quality and competitive pricing and it's no contest.

[Sales@RKautowerks]

Originally Posted by m6beast

Razina its very simple, MSR intake on completely stock m5 before and after knocked off .5 seconds vbox 60-130 and a Moded M5 at the track knocked off .4-.5 seconds and gained 4-5mph in the 1/4 mile with identical 60ft. Do some real testing on the street or track before you start questioning my proven gains over and over, I guarantee your intake will not come close. Been on several M5/M6's for the last three years with happy customers, sorry you're trying to do anything and everything to sell your product. I understand you don't get it and and don't expect you to but I do appreciate you comparing the MSR intake as the leading intake design and how you can try and take its design and make it better. Thank you and I'm honored that you're comparing MSR intake as the leading intake in the industry.
For those who would like to see all the data testing Dyno vbox and track please email info@mstreetracing.com and once again thanks for all the documentation you present to the forum members great write up!

I asked you to explain how your product functions, validate it, explain to your consumers and future consumers. You keep avoiding the engineering questions. We're not talking about explaining love here, this is engineering 101, the stuff you learn the first day of class.

Your response with respect to vbox, quarter mile, and etc mean absolutely nothing. I just showed you with my data how much of a benefit a 2013 M5 has if you simply remove the charcoal filter. You have zero testing showing the charcoal filter vbox times, trap speeds, and etc on the same car.

As a design engineer you're responsible for validating a product and the fundamentals behind it. The "why" behind something working is more important than it working. It allows you to correct a design if it doesn't work, I call that knowledge growth. Everyone on here should ask WHY with governing physics behind a product when purchasing a performance product. The more we educate everyone, the better our community is. The consumer trusts you when you tell them something.

Why is it that your keep coming at me with remarks such as "you're doing anything and everything to sell your product." If i was a consumer and i asked you these questions, is that how you'd treat me? Everyone that has purchased product from me will tell you that when they ask me "why" something i developed works, i enjoy talking science with them. They walk away with more knowledge than when they met me. Even if they don't purchase anything, i know i did my part in the community.

I'm not going to ask you the same question again because it seems like you don't want to have a high level discussion.

-Raza (Rah Zah)<--- please don't butcher my name again George, thanks

[MileHighM5]

Originally Posted by Raza@RKautowerks

The reason why you want to scavenge pressure instead of velocity is flow seperation. If the flow hits the compressor blade at too fast of a speed, you can get it to go passed mach 1 depending on the blade design. I can't remember which portion of the blade, i'd have to bust out a turbo-machinery book. But that's why you want to scavenge pressure when possible.

Here's a diagram of what is going in in a subsonic regime.




So i'll ask again M6beast...how are you compressing the flow again.

-R

+1

But instead he reverts to the 1/4 mile times of ONE car in every rebuttal. We're getting down to the science of things and this is turning into a great thread. I'm not sure why he refuses to explain how he's compressing air flow.

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by Raza@RKautowerks

I asked you to explain how your product functions, validate it, explain to your consumers and future consumers. You keep avoiding the engineering questions. We're not talking about explaining love here, this is engineering 101, the stuff you learn the first day of class.

Your response with respect to vbox, quarter mile, and etc mean absolutely nothing. I just showed you with my data how much of a benefit a 2013 M5 has if you simply remove the charcoal filter. You have zero testing showing the charcoal filter vbox times, trap speeds, and etc on the same car.

As a design engineer you're responsible for validating a product and the fundamentals behind it. The "why" behind something working is more important than it working. It allows you to correct a design if it doesn't work, I call that knowledge growth. Everyone on here should ask WHY with governing physics behind a product when purchasing a performance product. The more we educate everyone, the better our community is. The consumer trusts you when you tell them something.

Why is it that your keep coming at me with remarks such as "you're doing anything and everything to sell your product." If i was a consumer and i asked you these questions, is that how you'd treat me? Everyone that has purchased product from me will tell you that when they ask me "why" something i developed works, i enjoy talking science with them. They walk away with more knowledge than when they met me. Even if they don't purchase anything, i know i did my part in the community.

I'm not going to ask you the same question again because it seems like you don't want to have a high level discussion.

-Raza (Rah Zah)<--- please don't butcher my name again George, thanks

You copy his design and then bash him. You should be ashamed.

[MileHighM5]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

You copy his design and then bash him. You should be ashamed.

Ahh another fanboy. Tell me......What other design could possibly work to bring the filters to the same spot?

[Sales@RKautowerks]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

You copy his design and then bash him. You should be ashamed.

Copy design? If we're copying designs, my intakes would be aluminum, mesh grill, CNC flange. None of those things exist.

If your argument is copying, every OEM is a copy then, everyone who sells branded water is a copy. Everyone should be ashamed they "copied" Karl Benz invention of the automobile. Every company with a touch screen phone copied apple.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you i didn't take the MSR design into consideration, because i did. I also took into consideration the evolve, dinan, gruppe M, and etc; because they produce carbon pieces that were 3d scanned and reverse engineered. There were a lot of flaws, in my opinion with the MSR design, so i felt i could make a better product, which i did. Bashing would be me pointing out those flaws, nowhere in this thread have i done that. I've only asked questions that others asked, none of the questions are mine, they are all "copies."



-R

[MSIXCARBON]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

You copy his design and then bash him. You should be ashamed.

Have you even seen either in person? The beauty of a 3D scan optimized design is that you can take up the maximum amount of real estate while fitting perfectly. There's a lot more involved in making the RK intakes than welding aluminum pipes together