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05-31-2013, 09:10 PM | #1 |
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Video: World's fastest BMW F10 M5 by Manhart Racing - Brake disc getting hot & smokin
Hello
I record this video on an airport in Germany. This M5 was doing some laps together with 2 other M-cars from Manhart Racing This is world's fastest BMW F10 M5 at the moment with 710HP and 860Nm! BMW M5 F10 MH5 S Biturbo - Stage 4 Performance Kit: MHR Software Remapping MHR Downpipes (semi-catted) MHR Axleback Exhaust Carbon Air Intake System MHR Performance Box 100-200 km/h in 6,3 seconds 80-250 km/h in 13,5 seconds 0-100 km/h in 3,9 seconds 0-60 km/h in 2,6 seconds |
06-01-2013, 02:44 PM | #3 |
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Awesome! Great job Manhart
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2013 M6 Coupe SG, VSE 003's 21, Akropovic Evo Carbon, KW V3, AMS DP's, Vorsteiner Full Aero, Gruppe M Intake, Bel Stir Plus & V1 with HP Laser Interceptors, P3Cars Gauges, JL 2X12W6Subs, 35%tints.
My Thread: http://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=794659 |
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06-01-2013, 04:27 PM | #4 |
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Btw brake discs smoking is very normal, I once braked 'fast' from 300 km/h to a standstill and a friend of mine lit a cigarette (or so he claimed) on my brake discs, either way they were smoking
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06-01-2013, 04:56 PM | #5 | |
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Of course this is also why you will wear out your car quickly by tracking it. Same thing happens in the engine. All of the moving components are affected similarly and the energy is mostly dissipated as heat. This is also why you shouldn't really race a stock car. It's not built or designed to handle the kinds of prolonged heat that the constant changing from high to low speed on a track will produce. I know people do it but I also think they do it with a second car, not their regular car. Right? |
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06-02-2013, 07:45 AM | #6 | |
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Off course a engine that is driven leisurely (but not so leisurely that it gets carbon deposits etc) will normally last longer than a engine that is run at full throttle. But I don't think that BMW ///M hasn't taken into consideration that their engines will be used extensively at high speeds on the Autobahn or on track days. In fact BMW even arranges track days... And has the 'Ring Taxi M5 which is driven hard around the Nürburgring. |
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06-02-2013, 11:31 AM | #7 | |
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Running the car at a constant high speed isn't the same as tracking it. The speed is constant and the energy is constant. So there isn't a lot of heat generated due to frequent change in energy levels. This is why tracking the car will wear it out quickly. I am sure the engineers at BMW didn't design the car to be tracked on a regular basis, not within the warranty anyway. OCICBW but I don't intend to track my car regularly. Last edited by wrsbmw; 06-02-2013 at 11:37 AM.. |
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06-02-2013, 02:23 PM | #8 |
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I know that the brakes generates more heat/energy braking the car down from higher speeds. But it wasn't the brakes I was asking about, it was the engine (as that was one of your concerns).
To reiterate my question, do you still believe that the engine in a ///M car isn't suited for track use? And if so, why? |
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06-02-2013, 02:27 PM | #9 | |
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06-02-2013, 03:44 PM | #10 | |
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Of course you know that city driving you get less mileage than highway and this is the same principle. More work is done by the engine in stop start or speed up and slow down than just running at constant speed. It is this additional work that dissipates the greater power and also subjects the components to dynamic stress. Higher RPM in the lower gears are required to accelerate the car to a given velocity. You don't run the car at the top of the power band in the stretches nor would you on the highway even at 120mph. In order to get the car to the high speed, the engine must rev higher in the powerband and it must do it repeatedly when tracking the car. This puts more stress on the engine than if you were just running it up to say 120mph and leaving it at 3500 RPM in 7th gear for 30 minutes or an hour. So yes, the engine is subject to much greater stress due to tracking because I am sure the average RPM is much higher. That is reflected in the lower gas mileage due to the greater amount of power dissipation/consumption. |
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06-03-2013, 02:32 AM | #11 | ||
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My question wasn't whether a engine is more stressed on a track than it is cruising at 65MPH. The answer to that is quite obvious My question is still if you still believe that the ///M5 engine isn't suited for extended track driving (as that was what you implied in your first post)? And what in the engine design makes it unsuited for tracking (taking into consideration that the engine is designed to be driven extensively at 300+km/h on the Autobahn, with heavy braking and accelerations in between)? Quote:
Last edited by Boss330; 06-03-2013 at 02:38 AM.. |
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06-03-2013, 08:14 AM | #12 | |
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If you want to kid yourself about the design of the car, be my guest. I can tell you as a guy who designed a lot of products both software and hardware, users always find new ways to use stuff that the designers never intended. They also find ways to break stuff that the designers never thought they could. That is why warranties are limited and written by weasel wording lawyers. Last edited by wrsbmw; 06-03-2013 at 08:19 AM.. |
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06-03-2013, 10:55 AM | #13 | |||||||||
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http://www.bimmerpost.com/goodiesforyou/new_m5.pdf Quote:
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06-03-2013, 11:15 AM | #14 | |
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I personally could care less what you do with your car. I might track mine but probably won't the more I think about it. I have plenty of opportunity to put the pedal to the metal on the back roads of Texas. I think the car is great but if I wanted a track car, this wouldn't be the one I bought for that purpose. |
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06-03-2013, 11:45 AM | #15 | |
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So, first you say: Ask BMW if the car can be used/is designed for track use I reply with: OFFICIAL BMW press releases, saying that in fact it is! Then you suddenly figure out that since it's written by the PR department, and not the Engineers, it's worthless... I wonder what business you are in Where I come from, even marketing people have a legal responsibilty not to misrepresent the product... BTW, I'm a vehicle engineer. Your original statement was that the car and engine wasn't designed for track use. BMW official press releases say otherwise. That still isn't good enough because it wasn't written by the right people and apparently is all made up by some marketing gurus Whatever That you would have chosen a different car for track days is a completely different subject and has no relevance to the question at hand (ie is the M5 designed to also be used on the track). Regardless of whether one believes what BMW says about the M5, the MHR car in the video is a pretty awesome beast Last edited by Boss330; 06-03-2013 at 12:51 PM.. |
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06-03-2013, 01:21 PM | #16 | |
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Obviously you wanted to nitpick my original statement and start an argument. Looks to me like you got nowhere. Tracking your car is considered improper use I am fairly certain. The warranty is voided if you race the car, that much is very clear.
PR is marketing material and nothing more. You can cut and paste all the statements you want about the car. Sure, put it on the track, ruin it. I don't care and neither will the BMW legal department when you try to use your warranty after tracking the car. I don't think relying on PR material is going to win anything against a legal document such as a warranty. If you are an actual engineer then you should know better than to rely on PR materials for reliability. Here is my original statement: Quote:
I said most of the energy is dissipated as heat. Nothing wrong with that. I said you really shouldn't race a stock car. BMW warranty explicitly agrees with me. I said it's not built or designed to handle the kinds of prolonged heat that the constant changing from high to low speed on a track will produce. I believe this to be a true statement because a race is tracking of a prolonged nature and BMW voids the warranty under those conditions. You have chosen to avoid dealing with the heat issue here. That is what I originally pointed out was the risk involved. You have consistently pointed to other design features not related to the heat. Of course elevated temperatures are the thing that cause the most failures in mechanical systems and in electrical systems. So that is why I mention that. If you are an engineer, then you should understand my original statement and give it a pass. Instead, you seem to be a lawyer because your response is one of a lawyer. I never said you couldn't use the car for tracking. I just parsed what I said and really, it's not incorrect at all. I like the car in the video but it's not stock, it was modded for tracking. I see nothing wrong with tracking the car if you have the bucks to do it. I also said that I thought most people would do it with a second car and put a question mark after the statement. I wasn't trying to start a fight or an argument in my original post. Just making some observations that I believe are accurate, factual and correct. |
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06-03-2013, 02:43 PM | #17 | ||
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I have never questioned that track use will increase wear, in fact I even pointed that out. But again that was never my point. Just as I never debated warranty issues either. Warranty is something you brought up and is also unrelated to wether the engine etc. was designed for track use. I just didn't understand how you could say the M5's engine etc wasn't designed for track use. Especially when BMW themselves say that the M5 is designed for track use. And track days and racing are two different things. How come you start arguing on other subjects than what the issue is about? Like warranty or wear? You said the car wasn't designed for track use. Wether I track my car and ruin it is a totally unrelated question, as that is my choice. Wether warranty covers track use in litigation happy USA is also a different matter. I have never questioned any of those issues at all. You might question wether I'm an engineer. That doesn't bother me at all I also work with legal issues daily, so not troubled by having knowledge of legal issues as well. It seems like you don't realize that in Germany, M5's are repeatedly and prolonged used every day on the Autobahn at speeds over 250km/h. Until you have tried that you probably won't realize that it's very different from driving on 65MPH Highways or Interstates. The M5 has undergone extensive testing on the Nürburgring. One of the hardest tracks in the world. Since you are concerned about heat: Quote:
The oil system is also modified to include oil spray nozzles that cool the piston crowns. In fact, designing a high performance car not capable to deal with the forces and stresses of driving under similar circumstances as on a track would be the same as designing a car not being able to use it's potential without failure occuring... What you are saying is basically that the car/engine etc is able to generate such amounts of energy that it will selfdestruct at any time if that potential is exploited. (And again: Yes, I do realize that driving at 300km/h on the Autobahn or hard on a track is more stressful and increases wear compared to driving back and forth to work at 65MPH on the Highway) The M5 'Ring Taxi are bone stock M5's apart from racing brake pads (before the CCB option). They race around the Nürburgring week after week on the worlds supposedly hardest race track, with passengers. If that doesn't generate heat, then what does? But to sum up: You say the engine etc. in the M5 wasn't designed for track use. BMW say in their official information that it was designed for track use. Wether warranty covers racing etc, and that hard use increase wear is a different question. I choose to side with BMW on this matter and still believe that the M5 is designed to be used on the track as well as on the street With that I "include myself out" of this debate Last edited by Boss330; 06-03-2013 at 02:57 PM.. |
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06-03-2013, 02:55 PM | #18 | ||
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There is no debate here, you are simply making a fool of yourself by proving you wanted to nitpick my original statement. You either don't want to read it or you are not bright enough to understand the import of the original statement. You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word prolonged. You also don't seem to understand the difference between racing and a couple of times around the track. I made my original statement abundantly clear. Instead, you make things up such as this. Quote:
Last edited by wrsbmw; 06-03-2013 at 03:07 PM.. |
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06-03-2013, 03:09 PM | #19 | ||
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I have pointed out above that racing and a track use is two different things. And that what we are talking about is track use (like a track day), even though the 'Ring Taxi is used hour after hour, week after week on the Nürburgring. Please read my posts So, where am I repeating something you didn't say? Quote:
And excuse me if I didn't understand properly. English is my second language. Last edited by Boss330; 06-03-2013 at 03:20 PM.. |
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06-03-2013, 03:14 PM | #20 | |
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06-03-2013, 03:48 PM | #21 | ||
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1.) The car will wear out quickly by tracking it. The statement implies continuation of the action, not a single event. I thought I expanded on the idea when I said you shouldn't race a stock car and then made clear the issue was prolonged heat in a race. I think you are implying that running the car for prolonged periods at it's operational extremes isn't a problem and that it's normal. I disagree. When you have an operational extreme, it is an extreme. The high end of the tach isn't the place for the engine to be operating on a regular basis. If you are an automotive engineer you know this and you know that reliability suffers as a result. This is what I was suggesting and I think I made that pretty clear in my subsequent posts. I even gave good physics based explanations for the laymen on the thread. You somehow still didn't catch my drift but that doesn't mean I didn't communicate clearly because at least one other poster did understand my statement. I even clarified my statement with the suggestion/question that most people would use a second car for tracking, not their everyday car. I sure didn't spend $100k on my car to ruin it by running it too hard. I enjoy accelerating hard and driving it at high speed but I will be careful with it. This car generates tremendous heat just driving around town, way more than my 535 did. I am not sure what your point to other owners is. If it's that you can run your car on the track without worry because BMW designed it for that, then I would suggest you are misleading them. I am sure you can take your car out to the track and run it hard for a few laps. I don't know what a typical tracking experience amounts to but more than a few laps is inadvisable, at least in the way these people that post videos are running their cars. If you do it repeatedly, expect a major engine failure or transmission failure or both at some point. It's not like these cars have a very high reliability rating anyway. This stuff just makes it worse. |
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06-03-2013, 03:53 PM | #22 |
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Heat issues was quoted in the post previous to your post as well.
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