NA V10 vs TT V8...I'll take the turbo lag please!

[M5 Orthodox]

As I was one of the lucky ones to win the lottery and make the VIN list, I had my M5 towed on a flat-top to the dealership today. On the upside, the dealer gave me a 2008 M6 (6MT) to play with for the next 2 weeks (or who knows how long) while the oil pump gets delivered.

Now, although I haven't had my well baby check on the F10 M5 yet (1200 mile service), I did manage to have some fun with it, and on more than one account, I pushed it to about 1/4 short of full throttle, shifting out around 5,000 rpm in S3 with engine dynamic setting to sport +. I'll dissect that experience in a minute...

In comparison, today I drove the 6MT M6 like a scene out of Ronin. On the interstate, windy country roads, drop clutch start, tires spinning, MDM, 8,250 rpm, screaming V10, M-mode engaged, pure madness.

I have read so much on the forums about the turbo lag. Members lamenting the loss of the NA V10, and how the F10 isn't a "true" M-car.

Here is my poor man's 0.02 on the NA V10 vs the TT V8:
Yes, you are all correct. There is a turbo lag, especially < 3,500 rpm. On one hand, the NA V10 is crisp, responsive, and almost surgical in its delivery of power. Coming out of corners, the power is there as soon as you put your foot to the pedal and the engine SCREAMS as it revs up to an ungodly limit. But, on the other hand, it's a bit listless. It's so predictable and consistent that I'm never taken aback by it. I learn to expect it, and it's there for me. And once it's that predictable, I'm sort of over it.

I have no idea what the TT V8 feels like above 5,000 rpm. What I do know is that when I squeeze the throttle down to 3/4-full in S3, second gear, starting at about 2,000 rpm, I feel my heart beat a little faster in anticipation. I know something crazy is about to happen, but I don't know exactly when and how intense it will feel. As the revs climb to 2,500 I feel myself sink into my seat and my grip on the steering wheel tightens to keep my perspective on the road. Somewhere around 3,000 - 3,500 rpm I am sucked into my seat with a force that is increasing EXPONENTIALLY and all I can do is crack a shit-eating grin as I think to myself "Holy Shit!". The tach is spinning so fast it becomes distorted and I hit the right paddle somewhere around what I think is 4,500 rpm to make sure I'm out by 5,000. And the DCT slams 3rd gear into place before I'm done fully depressing the paddle.

Turbo lag, to me, creates a degree of freedom between me and the Beast. It's an ever-present reminder that the Beast cannot be tamed, controlled, and thereby fully understood. 95% of the time I drive the M5 in a calm but spirited fashion. Drag a few gears here and there, don't shift out too quickly, let the engine sing a little, and make the onramp something to look forward to. 5% of the time I get the devil sitting on my shoulder and do things like I did with the M6 today. For the most part, I don't want the car to say "as you like it" when I say jump. I want it to say, "watch this" and blow me away like it's the first time all over again.

[Rob///M5]

Awesome write up!! Made me smile.

Sweet that you got a M loaner too!

[MasterDank]

Sorry to hear about your M5... I feel exactly the same as you about the E 60 and E9X cars.. The NA was great, but the Turbo version is better every time you dip in to the power. It is just that bit more hit that you can only get by turbos, The lag is what i would call non existant coming from many turbo supercharged and NA setups. I can't wait to test the top end to make sure it doesn't drop off.

Boost makes it better!


Aloha
Alex

[GTR-Dad]

Butt dyno says it pulls hard to redline. HARD!
Things don't really get any more exciting above 5k rpm as you're already on the torque plateau, but the way it sustains the massive thrust is a bit startling.
You find yourself going very quickly in a very short time.

[krispykreme]

For me. It's not the engine I missed the most. While the V10 was fun when revved. It's lack of punch made everyday driving painful.

But I will gladly take E60 chassis over F10. F10 is a great luxury cruiser. Personally having made transition from E39 to E60 and onward to F10. I really still do not like the direction. The M5 is getting way too big and soft.

[mainly]

Originally Posted by M5 Orthodox

I have no idea what the TT V8 feels like above 5,000 rpm.

over 5000 is the one place the TT V8 will never touch the V10 in my opinion.

thinking back, i can still hear the engine whining, screaming up to 8400 rpm... higher and higher, as if it were going to keep revving to infinity!

the f10 is a good compromise though

i don't think you can compare the v10 m6 manual to the smg.

smg was magic.

[stealth.pilot]

What turbo lag?

[brava09]

First time when I hear someone praising the turbo lag.

You want to know what will happen after 5,000 rpm? Based on my experience with the 335i, all the fun is up to 5,000 rpm.

[smashhell]

If it isn't better, Why would BMW make it?
Thats Pretty obvious.

[cole328]

Actually, while the OP's write-up was nice, it was the final nail in the coffin for me as to why I'll be switching away from Beemers for this next lease. Who the heck would "want" turbo lag...when I want / need to go, I want to go. period. Those that say they enjoy the anticipation of the car spooling up, are drinking the proverbial Koolaid IMHO.

[RPiM5]

I am in agreement with M5 Orthodox's statements.

As someone who has driven the F10 M5 after it completed the Break-In Service I can tell you that it is without a doubt the best engine that ///M has ever built.

Turbo Lag? Yes, there is lag, but only when you are meandering around town and then punch it or when you are cruising on the highway at 65mph and then punch it. There is NO turbo lag when you are pushing the M5 hard. The amount of thrust from 5,000 to 7,200rpm is just ridiculous. The S63tu is a true monster and WILL scare you, period.

I dare to say that Naturally Aspirated Engines are a thing of the past and Turbo Technology is just going to keep getting better. Not only for performance, but for efficiency as well. The U.S. EPA rating is complete bullshit. I was consistently getting 27-28mpg on the highway at 70mph in 7th gear.

Again, if you are making your opinions without having ever driven the new M5 or M6, and especially before it is fully broken-in, all you are doing is making yourself look like a fool, and you will be eating humble pie when ever you get the chance to drive a fully broken-in M5 or M6 all the way up 7,200rpm in ANY gear. That's right, I said ANY gear. Even punching it on the highway in 6th gear, there is just SO much torque and thrust it is unbelievable.

I'm still in a little disbelief at the amount of naysayers there are after so many good and truthful reviews. But then I remember that all of the naysayers are the ones who have no true experience driving the F10 or the F12 to its full and complete potential. It's like me giving an opinion about the iPhone5 even though I don't own one and have not used one to its full potential yet.

[aus]

Originally Posted by brava09

First time when I hear someone praising the turbo lag.

Werd.

Originally Posted by smashhell

If it isn't better, Why would BMW make it?
Thats Pretty obvious.

Cheaper and better gas mileage.
And did I mention it's cheaper?
Not saying it's not a great engine, but it's not a true /M engine.

.

[Tylerstar]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

I am in agreement with M5 Orthodox's statements.

As someone who has driven the F10 M5 after it completed the Break-In Service I can tell you that it is without a doubt the best engine that ///M has ever built.

Turbo Lag? Yes, there is lag, but only when you are meandering around town and then punch it or when you are cruising on the highway at 65mph and then punch it. There is NO turbo lag when you are pushing the M5 hard. The amount of thrust from 5,000 to 7,200rpm is just ridiculous. The S63tu is a true monster and WILL scare you, period.

I dare to say that Naturally Aspirated Engines are a thing of the past and Turbo Technology is just going to keep getting better. Not only for performance, but for efficiency as well. The U.S. EPA rating is complete bullshit. I was consistently getting 27-28mpg on the highway at 70mph in 7th gear.

Again, if you are making your opinions without having ever driven the new M5 or M6, and especially before it is fully broken-in, all you are doing is making yourself look like a fool, and you will be eating humble pie when ever you get the chance to drive a fully broken-in M5 or M6 all the way up 7,200rpm in ANY gear. That's right, I said ANY gear. Even punching it on the highway in 6th gear, there is just SO much torque and thrust it is unbelievable.

I'm still in a little disbelief at the amount of naysayers there are after so many good and truthful reviews. But then I remember that all of the naysayers are the ones who have no true experience driving the F10 or the F12 to its full and complete potential. It's like me giving an opinion about the iPhone5 even though I don't own one and have not used one to its full potential yet.

+1, couldn't have said it better.

[cole328]

I love this board, as the information exchange is great. I am a diehard BMW fan, and have had the privilege of owning several M cars. The problem with this thread, to me, is that the very areas where you discuss the "turbo lag," are unfortunately, 95% of the expected daily utility of the car. Driving around town....around 65-70 on the turnpike...every day occurrences. If there is noticeable lag there, what a major bummer. The reality is, how often does one really get to play in the supposed "sweet spot" you mention,of 5-7200 rpm? Unfortunately, not too often. Couple that with the fact that BMW lost the opportunity to make this version have some stylistic "grit," and I fear that I will likely lease something else until the next (hopefully better) variant.

[Rob///M5]

Originally Posted by cole328

I love this board, as the information exchange is great. I am a diehard BMW fan, and have had the privilege of owning several M cars. The problem with this thread, to me, is that the very areas where you discuss the "turbo lag," are unfortunately, 95% of the expected daily utility of the car. Driving around town....around 65-70 on the turnpike...every day occurrences. If there is noticeable lag there, what a major bummer. The reality is, how often does one really get to play in the supposed "sweet spot" you mention,of 5-7200 rpm? Unfortunately, not too often. Couple that with the fact that BMW lost the opportunity to make this version have some stylistic "grit," and I fear that I will likely lease something else until the next (hopefully better) variant.

Don't read about it. Go drive it. Then make an opinion.

As another said on this board once: "The E60 M5 suffered from RPM lag". So true. It wasn't impressively punchy until around 5k RPM.

I've only test driven the F10 a few times, but to me the lag was minute and the payoff was immense.

I'll chime in again once my car arrives (and it's driveable)

[clar]

It's possible to not suffer from any lag when driving this car. Just don't gun it with full throttle. Aggressive, but progressive throttle input is the key.

[AlphaM]

Originally Posted by cole328

Actually, while the OP's write-up was nice, it was the final nail in the coffin for me as to why I'll be switching away from Beemers for this next lease. Who the heck would "want" turbo lag...when I want / need to go, I want to go. period. Those that say they enjoy the anticipation of the car spooling up, are drinking the proverbial Koolaid IMHO.

dude, did you drive the f10 M5?
drive it first and then coment. It's insanely fast. that thing will eat up amost anything on the road. i pressed mine on a few occasions and if you were in the car, it would make you shit in your pants, it's that fast. period.

[techwhiz]

Originally Posted by aus

Not saying it's not a great engine, but it's not a true /M engine.

.

What constitutes a "true" ///M engine???
This engine is unique from any other engineBMW has made.
Turbos down the valley with intake and exhaust is is swapped and different from every other "V" engine that I've ever seen.

[Tourbillon]

For everyone commenting on how insanely fast the car is and how hard it pulls, I would have to disagree. It's fast, but it doesn't throw you back in your seat and make your jaw drop. It's fast, but doesn't really "feel" it.

[aus]

Originally Posted by techwhiz

What constitutes a "true" ///M engine???
This engine is unique from any other engineBMW has made.
Turbos down the valley with intake and exhaust is is swapped and different from every other "V" engine that I've ever seen.

Depends on if you're an old school //M enthusiast. //M engines have always been about revs and linear power delivery. They do tend to feel a little "flat" down low, but they'll just keep revving and revving until they just scream, similar to a race engine.
This engine is a tuned N engine that doesn't offer much in terms of extra revs. It's REALLY easy to get power out of a boosted engine. //M used to essentially be the GT3/2 cars of Porsche. You'll never seen a GT3 Cayanne or Panamera. This is what really gets the old school guys upset. The X5/6M are amazing cars, but not what //M would have built back in the day. They would have been called CSi models, but BMW want's to milk //M for all it can, and so you also have M-Performance too.

.

[smashhell]

Originally Posted by aus

Depends on if you're an old school //M enthusiast. //M engines have always been about revs and linear power delivery. They do tend to feel a little "flat" down low, but they'll just keep revving and revving until they just scream, similar to a race engine.
This engine is a tuned N engine that doesn't offer much in terms of extra revs. It's REALLY easy to get power out of a boosted engine. //M used to essentially be the GT3/2 cars of Porsche. You'll never seen a GT3 Cayanne or Panamera. This is what really gets the old school guys upset. The X5/6M are amazing cars, but not what //M would have built back in the day. They would have been called CSi models, but BMW want's to milk //M for all it can, and so you also have M-Performance too.

.

I have to disagree.
Think of the previous M5/M6.
Sure they have high revving V10 engine. But are they any luxurious or any less equipped than a regular 5/6 series? No of course not.
They are meant to be built as a beefed up 5/6 series and not as a 'racecar'.
The car for that purpose is the M3 GTS.

[Rob///M5]

Originally Posted by aus

Depends on if you're an old school //M enthusiast. //M engines have always been about revs and linear power delivery. They do tend to feel a little "flat" down low, but they'll just keep revving and revving until they just scream, similar to a race engine.
This engine is a tuned N engine that doesn't offer much in terms of extra revs. It's REALLY easy to get power out of a boosted engine. //M used to essentially be the GT3/2 cars of Porsche. You'll never seen a GT3 Cayanne or Panamera. This is what really gets the old school guys upset. The X5/6M are amazing cars, but not what //M would have built back in the day. They would have been called CSi models, but BMW want's to milk //M for all it can, and so you also have M-Performance too.

.

Well written response. I agree, it still doesn't feel right to see a X5 with a ///M badge on it.

The downfall to this argument is that it implies things must stay the same to qualify as "true" M. Which rules out technological progress. 5 years from now we'll be debating whether battery assisted cars are true M cars.