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      02-28-2011, 08:34 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock 32 View Post
Alot of people expected it to be smooth like a steptronic auto gearbox and did not know that they bought a sequential MANUAL gearbox which is mostly why it got a bad wrap, IMO.
Keep in mind, BMW's SMG is not a real sequential manual. First off, it has an automatic mode which a true sequential manual transmission does not. Secondly, it can be shifted non-sequentially (using kick-down, or quick successive pulls).

The reason a true sequential manual has no automatic mode is that this type of transmission is 100% mechanical and, in classic form anyway, needs no ECU or computer of any kind to control the shift process. With a sequential manual, the shift forks are actually controlled by a cork-screw-like rotating shaft that is specially designed to snap them into place in succession (either up or down depending on the direction of the rotation). Tradionally, you rotated the shaft with a ratcheting mechanism (like a motorcycle might still have today), and also a clutch pedal was still necessary since the clutch did operate automatically either. Nowadays they can be shifted via levers and the clutch is often times automatically openned and closed. But the concept remains the same - the transmission can only be shifted sequentially.
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      02-28-2011, 08:43 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock 32 View Post
Automatic transmission have a torque converter instead of a clutch and do not roll backwards (like an automatic BECAUSE THAT IS AN AUTOMATIC).
It's perfectly feasible to design and program a DCT to not allow the car to roll backward when it is stationary, and also perfectly feasibly to program a traditional automatic with a torque converter to allow roll when the car is stationary as well. These behaviors are not dictated strictly by the type of transmission, although it must be acknowledged that to change them would cost more money for the manufacturers so there's not much incentive to do so. However, BMW does go as far as not allowing the DCT-equipped cars to roll back for a few seconds after the brake is released (they do the same with manuals as well, yes).

Quote:
(The other link clearly shows a paddle, but doesn't mean anything anyways and again, Auto's have paddles and I was speaking of the shift knob that looks more like DCT or SMG vs any sort of auto I have seen). There is not even a button on the shift knob to release it from park, etc).
Yes, prevailing wisdom would indeed suggest that the M5 mules are M-DCT equipped (as has been discussed earlier in this thread). FWIW, it would be possible to design a Steptronic equipped vehicle that did not require a physical "park" button, although as of yet BMW has not done so.
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      03-01-2011, 08:46 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It's perfectly feasible to design and program a DCT to not allow the car to roll backward when it is stationary, and also perfectly feasibly to program a traditional automatic with a torque converter to allow roll when the car is stationary as well. These behaviors are not dictated strictly by the type of transmission, although it must be acknowledged that to change them would cost more money for the manufacturers so there's not much incentive to do so. However, BMW does go as far as not allowing the DCT-equipped cars to roll back for a few seconds after the brake is released (they do the same with manuals as well, yes).



Yes, prevailing wisdom would indeed suggest that the M5 mules are M-DCT equipped (as has been discussed earlier in this thread). FWIW, it would be possible to design a Steptronic equipped vehicle that did not require a physical "park" button, although as of yet BMW has not done so.
You obviously do not understand what a manual gearbox is. Of course a transmission can be designed to BEHAVE like a manual or an automatic (but give me on example of an Auto that behaves like a manual). Or you can make a manual with a hydraulically operated clutch controlled by a computer to function it instead of your foot giving it an Automatic Mode.

Call it a semi-automatic or HELL I don't care what you call it (call it an auto), but I digress...

I guess this must have been why I was confused by the first post in the first place and/or trhe artical I did not read.

So what you are saying is that everyone is concerned because the M5 is rumored to possibly only be offered with DCT (and that is all the artical was talking about)?

I figured the artical was talking about an auto gearbox WITH a torque converter like the 8-speed auto with paddles currently offered in the F10 5-series. Well no worries, A DCT Automatic (as you call it) or even an SMG Automatic (as you call it), will be a fine transmission for the new M5, IMO.

///Cheers
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      03-01-2011, 08:53 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock 32 View Post
You obviously do not understand what a manual gearbox is.
And I stopped reading right there, bud. No offense of course, I just know you are all wrong here, so there's no point in going further and nothing more to discuss on that topic. I've gotten PM's thanking me for keeping it real with my posts in this thread, so I'll continue to do so, and you and I will just have to agree to disagree.
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      03-01-2011, 09:31 AM   #181
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Why the FUCK some of you are still moaning about automatic gearbox, if the new M5 has a DCT gearbox?

Oh haven't you heard? The new M5 is ready! It's ready and it has a DCT gearbox. Now tell that to those twats from Motor Trend, because they're full of schiss.
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      03-01-2011, 09:48 AM   #182
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^^

This thread should be closed....its pretty much been confirmed that it will have DCT
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      03-01-2011, 10:11 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyMeister View Post
Why the FUCK some of you are still moaning about automatic gearbox, if the new M5 has a DCT gearbox?
The DCT is an automatic. People are still pissed off because there won't be any manual transmission. Is that hard to comprehend?

Yes, Motortrend's original diatribe about why the M5 will supposedly get the 8 speed ZF slushbox instead of the 7 speed Getrag DCT (or some further evolution thereof) was a big fat load of B.S. to begin with.
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      03-01-2011, 11:57 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
The DCT is an automatic. People are still pissed off because there won't be any manual transmission. Is that hard to comprehend?

Yes, Motortrend's original diatribe about why the M5 will supposedly get the 8 speed ZF slushbox instead of the 7 speed Getrag DCT (or some further evolution thereof) was a big fat load of B.S. to begin with.


DCT is NOT an Automatic, "Bud".

I really think you are missing the point and only adding confusion by calling a DCT an automatic transmission when it is definately not. Let me go back and read it... (Yip, they do not classify DCT as an automatic in the article and that is CLEAR). THE POINT OF THE ARTICLE is that only an Automatic AND NOT A NON-AUTOMATIC such as DCT will be offered (wheter it is a bogus article or not is another story).

Keep, keeping it real, "Bud"...


Quote:
Since spy shots first appeared last summer of the F10 BMW M5, it has been clear it will be the first M car available only with a fully automatic transmission, with manumatic controls of course. The spy shots were of the “planned leak” variety, allowing spy photographers to peek inside the next M5’s cabin. The transmission mated to the twin-turbo, gas direct-injection 4.4-liter V-8 will be a ZF eight-speed automatic, with no manual or twin-clutch transmission offered.

The X5 M and X6 M come with automatics, of course, but we’re counting them as crossover/utility vehicles.

Word is that BMW tried to adapt the Getrag M Dual Clutch Transmission (M DCT) for the F10 M5. M is tipped to have tuned the car’s twin-turbo V-8 to more than 550 horsepower. Although the torque number remains unknown, it’s obviously too high for the M DCT. BMW M discovered that the transmission would have to be beefed up with bigger actuators, which would slow down the transmission’s response time. The only way it could have worked was with an extensive redo of the M DCT. So BMW’s M division chose to go with the eight-speed manumatic only.
One competitor still offers both fully manual and fully automatic transmissions, the Cadillac CTS-v, while the Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG and its predecessors have long been manumatic-only.



Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/2012-bmw-m...#ixzz1FN159hHu
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
And I stopped reading right there, bud. No offense of course, I just know you are all wrong here, so there's no point in going further and nothing more to discuss on that topic. I've gotten PM's thanking me for keeping it real with my posts in this thread, so I'll continue to do so, and you and I will just have to agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
There are none yet. That's exactly my point. You just made some up:

Speculation is fun for some folks. It makes for lively discussion. If you aren't enjoying the discussion, there's no reason you have to participate.

Last edited by Glock 32; 03-01-2011 at 12:12 PM..
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      03-01-2011, 01:32 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock 32 View Post
DCT is NOT an Automatic, "Bud".
Hello again. Like I said earlier I am not going to argue it with you. I give you an "A" for effort though. You are a persistent little guy aren't ya?

Quote:
(Yip, they do not classify DCT as an automatic in the article and that is CLEAR). THE POINT OF THE ARTICLE is that only an Automatic AND NOT A NON-AUTOMATIC such as DCT will be offered (wheter it is a bogus article or not is another story).
The terms used in the article are BS, since its really all just a buncha bunk.

That said, in fact, the point of the article is that neither a manual transmission nor a DCT transmission will be used in the next M5. This upset both folks who prefer manual transmissions over automatic transmissions, and those who perfer DCT transmissions over the traditional planetary and torque converter type. So then, very few people were ultimately pleased by the premonitions that the MT writer made. Thankfully though, the bulk of the evidence has since suggested that the "no DCT" part is BS. For the manual folks though, it looks like they are indeed out of luck.

Hey, no need to post up my old posts again, by the way. I remember what I said and anyone who does not can easily go back through the thread. Speaking of that, thanks for finally reading the entire thread though - it helps to know you understand the history of the discussion. Maybe next time you can read the whole thing first instead of just coming in after 100 posts with no new information. Just a thought.
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      03-06-2011, 03:48 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weatetheacid View Post
bmw of bridgeport, darien and watertown in CT all say it will have a manual option
They are "Misinformed" Sorry.
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      03-07-2011, 10:18 AM   #187
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Some OT posts/arguments have been deleted. Let's please try to stay on topic now.


Best regards,
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      03-07-2011, 11:28 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weatetheacid View Post
bmw of bridgeport, darien and watertown in CT all say it will have a manual option
I've learned a long time ago...the dealer knows less then pretty much ANYONE in the entire world. So do NOT take anything they say seriously. You are way more likely to get accurate information from this forum, or any other forum for that matter from BMW insiders and whatnot then you are from a dealership.

Most dealers don't know the exhaust from headers.
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      03-09-2011, 07:53 PM   #189
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Question F10 M5 auto only

Doubt if the AUTOMATIC is only transmission offered on the M5 because F10 550i, Sport, and M5 Sport pkgs all come standard as MANUAL not automatic. You only get the auto if you select that option. If BMW knows hard core performance owners prefer standard transmissions, why would BMW offer its regular 5 series with standard transmissions and not do the same for the next M5?
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      03-15-2011, 01:49 AM   #190
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About 18 months ago, I had leisurely dinner with a senior German engineering team from BMW. After a few glasse of wine and as an owner of an e34, e39 (sold), and e60 M5s, I pointedly asked them about the F10 M5 and especially as to whether it would include a DCT. They stated quite emphatically that it would be have a new 8-speed automatic because no other transmission could handle the torque of the new motor while delivering dramaticially faster shift times than the e60's notoriously slow SMG. I shook my head in disbelief over the transmission choice, but they went on to say the new automatic is faster than any DCT available and is more than capable of handling the torque.

They went on to say they did not understand why U.S. owners wanted manual transmissions so badly given it meant giving up a gear or two. Having worked hard, in their opinion, to bring F1 technology (SMG) to the M product family, they were dumbfounded that only in the U.S. were their efforts so completely unappreciated. They claimed that the e60's manual was a U.S.-only option intended to satisfy the Luddites (my word) in North America.

I frankly don't know what to make of the "DCT confirmed" news item given how clearly my BMW engineering friends stated that the new M5 would have an 8-speed automatic, but I have to admit that in the end I'm only interested in how many gears and how fast I can change from one to another. If eight forward automatic gears get me where I'm going faster and more efficiently, then I'm all for it, as long as I get to decide when to change from one to another. How it's done is really no concern of mine.
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      03-15-2011, 03:19 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e60_M5driver View Post
I frankly don't know what to make of the "DCT confirmed" news item given how clearly my BMW engineering friends stated that the new M5 would have an 8-speed automatic...
Sometimes things change for one reason on other . The fact that a pre-production car having a DCT also doesn't mean the production vehicle definitely will.
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      03-15-2011, 08:33 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e60_M5driver View Post
They stated quite emphatically that it would be have a new 8-speed automatic because no other transmission could handle the torque of the new motor while delivering dramaticially faster shift times than the e60's notoriously slow SMG. I shook my head in disbelief over the transmission choice, but they went on to say the new automatic is faster than any DCT available and is more than capable of handling the torque.
Interesting. Thanks for posting this. If what they told you about the shift speed is true, then I suppose there is no reason to worry or be upset. It seems hard to believe though. Granted I have not driven any of BMW's with the new 8 speed sport automatic (like an F10 550i MSport, for example), so I have no first-hand experience. Plus, this may be a further evolution of that transmission rather than the same one.

Quote:
I frankly don't know what to make of the "DCT confirmed" news item given how clearly my BMW engineering friends stated that the new M5 would have an 8-speed automatic,
Yeah, I would love to know more about how the guy from EVO knows about the transmission. I.e. was it told to him explicitly, or was he simply told "it would be much faster than the old M5" or something like that.

Quote:
but I have to admit that in the end I'm only interested in how many gears and how fast I can change from one to another. If eight forward automatic gears get me where I'm going faster and more efficiently, then I'm all for it, as long as I get to decide when to change from one to another. How it's done is really no concern of mine.
I agree, when it boils down to it, that is what is most important. I do have a soft spot for DCT technology though, so I hope that regardless of what BMW decides to do, this is tech continues to be refined by others and remains in the forefront of transmission development.
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