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      06-23-2011, 10:06 PM   #89
Kinzer S13GT
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You guys say "stock motor", like this is a boosted Civic!? Seriously, from an engineering standpoint these engines are Top Tier, even if the car (as a whole) is not!
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      06-23-2011, 11:33 PM   #90
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Really? I thought only a 4 cyliner engine could run that much boost (i know evos do this no problem), as I understand it the less cylinders and displacement the more boost you can run due to compression differences and so forth, are there any examples of vehicles running that much boost with a V8?

In addition, I think someone above mentioned at 22 PSI this engine would put down 700, I tend to think it would be a lot more if it was possible?
We need to be grateful the engine doesn't take 22psi to make horsepower. It would leave virtually no extra HP on the table for the tuners. The fact that it is valvetronic might be a limiting factor on tuning anyways. Probably one of BMW intentions. Secondly there are hardly any N54s that will run 18psi on pump gas. None on 22psi. So assuming the new M5 needs to run on pump gas..then not likely it would come with a 20psi stock tune.
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      06-24-2011, 12:30 PM   #91
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Boost is one variable which in of itself doesn't define the outcome. Quality in the engine build/internals, ems tuning, compression ratio...ability for systems to obtain the best stoichiometric ratio is whats key.
Yes I know that but too much psi and the gas will self-ignite... so what's the psi range of gasoline engine before self-ignition
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BMW have tapped into this by mirroring typical BMW dynamics and steering communication within the new UKL cars.
You mean massive body roll, a steering system that is not connected to the front wheels, and the engine note played through the speaker system?!?!?!?!
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      06-24-2011, 01:51 PM   #92
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Boost is one variable which in of itself doesn't define the outcome. Quality in the engine build/internals, ems tuning, compression ratio...ability for systems to obtain the best stoichiometric ratio is whats key.
Yes I know that but too much psi and the gas will self-ignite... so what's the psi range of gasoline engine before self-ignition
Direct injection eliminates the possibility of self-ignition in this engine.
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      06-24-2011, 01:55 PM   #93
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Guys please keep in mind that with the complex electronic boost control that this engine is using 22 PSI would only be the peak number and would not mean it will run it through the entire RPM range. The computer is always going to be manipulating the wastegate to make that nice smooth power and torque curve.
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      06-24-2011, 02:01 PM   #94
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I see it says 22 PSI absolute. So it will make ~ 8.5 PSI atmospheric.

*I apologize for the multiple posts, I am on my IPhone and can't edit my posts in the app.
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      06-24-2011, 04:02 PM   #95
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Octane is the measurement of a fuels ability to resist burning or igniting. The higher the octane, the higher its resistance. USDM ratings for these engines are calculated using 91 octane fuel. If you are using higher than that (93 here in S.Florida), then you are giving yourself more of a cushion than they even calculated for. IE; its safer! The engine has the ability to make more power on 93 than 91 octane, as the burn is more controllable!
Using direct injection (HDI/DI) effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel supply.
It doesnt eliminate the possibility of pre/post ignition, but Its far more efficient than port fuel injection, in more ways than one! Besides... 22psi, is not being pumped at idle. Thats not even possible on a conventional turbocharger setup. You only see numbers in that level per rpm in heavy duty diesel trucks. Either way... I have seen seen vehicle running 24 psi/g on 93 octane pump gas, on lesser vehicles. There is nothing to worry about here... BMW is not giving arbitrary information here! That 22 psi could be at an average "cruising" output, or it could be a "PEAK" value! I won't know definitively for another few months!
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      06-24-2011, 05:32 PM   #96
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Same block, same exact dimensions, same turbos, same torque, 5hp more.

In other words this if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck well then maybe it is a ....

V10>V8TT

they could have at least attempted to add 50hp over X5M.
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      06-24-2011, 11:29 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Kinzer S13GT View Post
(and yes the turbos could be used on an n54 given it was equipped with the right manifold/s, they are already working on the next n54 twin/twin scroll replacement) !
How do you get around the fact that 4 doesn't divide 6 evenly, i.e., 6 cylinders and essentially 4 turbos. You can't just put 3 cylinders on a twin scroll unless you are alternating which port the cylinders are feeding. (And I think even the folks at M might think that's a bit of over-engineering.). Otherwise you'll have two cylinders feeding one of the "scrolls" but only one cylinder feeding the other, resulting in an imbalance in the pressures within the turbo.

Based on this, I think a three conventional turbo is more feasible, and therefore more likely, on a six cylinder engine.
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      06-25-2011, 10:49 AM   #98
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Its on their agenda now. You're thinking to much about physical pairing of cylinders to inputs on the turbos flange. Its about keeping the exhaust pulses from the engines separate cylinders from interfering with one another. To be Specific: paired cylinders that fire at the same time. You could have 2 paired cylinders firing at once into the two separate scroll inputs, and the third can fire into the next input, which ever being the most efficient. They are currently even putting a twin scroll on a 3 cylinder, in addition to 2 twins on a 6. Besides... BMW doesn't understand the term "OVER ENGINEER"!
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      06-25-2011, 10:42 PM   #99
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This car has some serious power. All of that comes with much better gas mileage and lower emissions. Ok so it does not rev as high as the recent M cars. But other then that it is a gem of an engine
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      06-25-2011, 10:50 PM   #100
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What makes you say that. The V8TT is not more powerful then the V10.

Going by this then the BMW legendary formula one turbo 4 cylinder making 850hp must not impress you much. The turbo vs NA. argument is getting old.


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V10>V8TT
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      06-27-2011, 02:30 PM   #101
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^might want review what < and > mean. reading is fundamental.
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      06-28-2011, 11:03 AM   #102
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Direct injection eliminates the possibility of self-ignition in this engine.
Not really. Just allows you to be more aggressive in timing, AFR, compression ratio, etc. relative to non-DI. You can still get self ignition if you push it too far, even with DI.
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      06-28-2011, 11:15 AM   #103
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Yes I know that but too much psi and the gas will self-ignite... so what's the psi range of gasoline engine before self-ignition
What are you talking about gasoline engine? I'm not sure exactly what your question is?

Self detonation,as was said, is not only about manifold air pressure. You can have self-ignition in a naturally-aspirated engine. It's all about the heat of the fuel, and the fuel igniting from temperature vs. spark. Temperature can change with increased intake air temp, increased fuel-air ratio, changes in compression ratio, changes in manifold pressure, etc. There is just too much going on to look at one component - otherwise anyone could tune an engine.

Take this gross oversimplification with a grain of salt, but it will help you to unerstand: the engine is a pump. The greater volume of fuel/air mix it can pump through at a given rate, the more power it can make. Now, you can increase that pumping rate several ways:

1. Speed up the pump.
2. Increase density of fuel / air mix (i.e. more fuel / air per given work cycle of the pump).
3. Increase the physical capacity of the pump.

#1 is accomplished by simply adding more RPM. Obviously there is a limit to how fast all the whirly bits can spin around without coming apart.

#2 is accomplished by forced induction. Supercharging and turbocharging (really exhaust-driven supercharger to be correct) increase the density of the fuel / air mix in a given volume of intake gas by compressing it. Therefore as the engine moves it's fixed volume of gas per cycle, more fuel / air mix is passed through.

#3 is a fancy way of saying increasing displacement of the engine.


Now, there are a lot of factors that influence design decisions. One example is bore vs. stroke, which will dictate the usable RPM range and the torque characteristics coming off the engine. That's why a ship diesel has connecting rods the length of a broom handle and an F1 car's is the length of a toothpick. There are literally hundreds of other parameters that will influence the design and the outcome. '

Hope this helps!
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      06-28-2011, 01:26 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Kinzer S13GT View Post
Its on their agenda now. You're thinking to much about physical pairing of cylinders to inputs on the turbos flange. Its about keeping the exhaust pulses from the engines separate cylinders from interfering with one another. To be Specific: paired cylinders that fire at the same time. You could have 2 paired cylinders firing at once into the two separate scroll inputs, and the third can fire into the next input, which ever being the most efficient. They are currently even putting a twin scroll on a 3 cylinder, in addition to 2 twins on a 6. Besides... BMW doesn't understand the term "OVER ENGINEER"!
Interesting. I think it would be more efficient to have three cylinders constantly swapping between two scrolls (nevermind the engineering mechanics behind making this happen). So what I mean is, you have 3 cylinders and 2 scrolls. Cylinder 1 fires into scroll 1, cylinder 2 fires into scroll 2, cylinder 3 fires into scroll 1, cylinder 1 fires into scroll 2, cylinder 2 fires into scroll 1, cylinder three fires into scroll 2, etc. etc.

I wonder if this could be accomplished using a simple "gate". In other words, every time a cylinder fires, it switches the gate to the other scroll.

Illustration:

|/| |\| |/|
^->^->^


lol, I suck. I'm not sure that illustration helps at all.
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      06-28-2011, 05:36 PM   #105
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Interesting. I think it would be more efficient to have three cylinders constantly swapping between two scrolls (nevermind the engineering mechanics behind making this happen). So what I mean is, you have 3 cylinders and 2 scrolls. Cylinder 1 fires into scroll 1, cylinder 2 fires into scroll 2, cylinder 3 fires into scroll 1, cylinder 1 fires into scroll 2, cylinder 2 fires into scroll 1, cylinder three fires into scroll 2, etc. etc.

I wonder if this could be accomplished using a simple "gate". In other words, every time a cylinder fires, it switches the gate to the other scroll.

Illustration:

|/| |\| |/|
^->^->^


lol, I suck. I'm not sure that illustration helps at all.
No no, i get the idea... actually I also thought of it myself! If it is even necessary, and can result in an actual measurable and "worthwhile" increase in performance then it is possible that they "might" try something like this. The adjustable vanes used in variable geometry turbos, are electro-hydraulically controlled by the computer with oil pressure control valves. Almost Anything is possible, its just a matter of their engineers designing a system that can be "cost effectively" produced! Again... with a substantial performance advantage!
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      06-28-2011, 10:43 PM   #106
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What everyone is missing is the tail end of the power curve between the S63 and the S63Tu. The former drops like all turbo does, while the later stays flat. They have managed to stretch the redline from 6800 to 7200, while maintaining the same torque to the redline. That's where the extra psi has gone into --> makes it able to maintain power right to the redline at 7200. Graph on the right is the X5m torque curve.
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      06-30-2011, 08:15 PM   #107
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What are you talking about gasoline engine? I'm not sure exactly what your question is?

Self detonation,as was said, is not only about manifold air pressure. You can have self-ignition in a naturally-aspirated engine. It's all about the heat of the fuel, and the fuel igniting from temperature vs. spark. Temperature can change with increased intake air temp, increased fuel-air ratio, changes in compression ratio, changes in manifold pressure, etc. There is just too much going on to look at one component - otherwise anyone could tune an engine.

Take this gross oversimplification with a grain of salt, but it will help you to unerstand: the engine is a pump. The greater volume of fuel/air mix it can pump through at a given rate, the more power it can make. Now, you can increase that pumping rate several ways:

1. Speed up the pump.
2. Increase density of fuel / air mix (i.e. more fuel / air per given work cycle of the pump).
3. Increase the physical capacity of the pump.

#1 is accomplished by simply adding more RPM. Obviously there is a limit to how fast all the whirly bits can spin around without coming apart.

#2 is accomplished by forced induction. Supercharging and turbocharging (really exhaust-driven supercharger to be correct) increase the density of the fuel / air mix in a given volume of intake gas by compressing it. Therefore as the engine moves it's fixed volume of gas per cycle, more fuel / air mix is passed through.

#3 is a fancy way of saying increasing displacement of the engine.


Now, there are a lot of factors that influence design decisions. One example is bore vs. stroke, which will dictate the usable RPM range and the torque characteristics coming off the engine. That's why a ship diesel has connecting rods the length of a broom handle and an F1 car's is the length of a toothpick. There are literally hundreds of other parameters that will influence the design and the outcome. '

Hope this helps!
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      07-18-2011, 11:11 PM   #108
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This man is correct. The S63Tu is in fact an underrated engine. Ask your local dealer for more info about it. The 560bhp is actually closer to the WHP figure than the actual BHP
I've also heard from a reliable source as well that BMW itself has dyno'd the F10 M5 at 560 whp...
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      07-18-2011, 11:55 PM   #109
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I've also heard from a reliable source as well that BMW itself has dyno'd the F10 M5 at 560 whp...
So are you saying that it's actually putting down around 660 cHp?
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      07-19-2011, 10:46 PM   #110
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Assuming that what I heard was accurate, and depending upon what % drivetrain loss one uses as an assumption, the crankshaft horsepower would probably be somewhere near that range.

Again, I am simply repeating what was told to me by what appears to be someone with much more information as compared to what the general public would have through the internet or other publicly-available sources. Then again, my source could certainly be mistaken... guess we really wont know until people start to dyno their stock F10 M5's!!!
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