BMW F10 M5 S63Tu Engine Components Explained @ IAA by Junior

[phish_100]

Originally Posted by Stoutnj89

Looks like a very unorganized..

It's not just put together by a few random blokes in a garage. It's the entire BMW M division backed up by decades of motorsport R

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by DDS2015

Wow. Is it just me, or does this seem like a overly complicated system?

I agree, although a wonderful bit of engineering...this is gonna be a headache for the techs, and it looks like this won't be holding up over time...I can see the issues now in 10 yrs...If only BMW didn't have to be so PC, I could see a TT V10...

[Yodaime]

Please don't start modding this beast. It's beautiful how it is.... well it wouldn't hurt to run a Eisenman Exhaust on it LMFAO!

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by MERCSUk153

Got to agree with you here not to mention if you have anything go wrong with the turbo's it looks like it's going to be very very expensive to change them out as it looks like everything will need to be dropped. Doesn't look like it can be changed from the top.

Also with the turbo's so close to the firewall is not a great idea unless BMW has moved all the ECU's and CPU's to the trunk and all the electronics in the dash is sufficiently cooled and the heat from the turbos don't get through at all.

The turbos are in the top- this is a reverse flow V8 with the turbos in the "V" exhaust is inboard and the intake is outboard on the head. It is very easy to work on once the shroud is removed.

The ECU and all the electronics have their own water cooling circuit. There is a lot of over kill thermal technology- the thing runs cool.

90 degrees plus on the track is no issue whatsoever, doesn't even break a sweat- runs cooler than the E60 M5 in many situations.

[AlHersh]

No doubt wud b a killer engine. Engineered by Bmw, wudnt worry about any cooling issues for those turbos

[Mattgfx]

If the N54 engine runs hot as hell which it does, this engine is going to be a heat soaking monster.

[m630]

Originally Posted by phish_100

It's not just put together by a few random blokes in a garage. It's the entire BMW M division backed up by decades of motorsport R

Not true at all. M has 0 (Zero) experience with turbos and zero with turbo motorsport. This engine was build by BMW, not M, M did the tuning and developed the manifold along with cooling and then the suspension. This is their first true product offering, and anyone buying one should expect that you will have to live with the growing pains of M trying to learn how to deal with forced induction and all the intricacies of such an endeavor. Dont expect history or tradition to help when they've abandonded both.

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by m630

Not true at all. M has 0 (Zero) experience with turbos and zero with turbo motorsport. This engine was build by BMW, not M, M did the tuning and developed the manifold along with cooling and then the suspension. This is their first true product offering, and anyone buying one should expect that you will have to live with the growing pains of M trying to learn how to deal with forced induction and all the intricacies of such an endeavor. Dont expect history or tradition to help when they've abandonded both.

What are you talking about? M had built turbos for years as has BMW MotorSport they had 1500 HP F1 Turbos. M and BMW designed the block and reverse flow concept- M is used early on in design as an engineering base to help the transition to M cars be easier. This began with the E9X and increased with F10. Moving forward it will be even more. M is not just a tuner- the adaptive suspension in all current BMWs was developed by them.

There first offering was the N54 which they helped with, then the N63/S63 and then there is N55 and this monster. These guys over engineer everything.

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by MERCSUk153

So what are you saying that the ECU and other electronics on the car is cooled by water cooling? That doesn't sound good either. Water and electronics don't mix.
I am not talking about sensors and other crap like that, I am talking about ECU and TCU, and other electronics that control the climate control, dashboard, etc. Usually it is either placed by the firewall or the trunk. Obviously if it is in the trunk then heat won't be a problem but if it is anywhere by the firewall then better be shielded insanely as the heat from the turbo's will definitely get at it.
Also Heat may not be a factor in the air coming out of it but I am willing to guarantee that there will be significant heat problems with the heat coming out of the turbo's exterior ( not the air pumped through).
Time will tell.
This design really boggles the mind. Heat from the engine also rises so it will also heat up the cooled air somewhat as also will heat up the turbo's that are on top. I hope BMW know what they are doing with this design. I just hope this isn't one of those HPFP things.

I had a water cooled CPU on my gaming PC, but in all seriousness they are water-cooled with sinks and there is no way the ECU will get wet, this is a car and they are water proofed.

People make this engine out to be something new- it's been in different forms for over three years and there are no issues with cooling or heat, it is engineered to cope with it. If they took a normal block and engin design and strapped turbos in the V there would be issues, when you build in extra water jackets, heat sinks, shrouds, fans radiators and a whole bunch more it is all covered. They ran this thing in stop and go in the desert, in death valley, at Button Willow and now Ascari at 93 degrees without concern.

[andrew20195]

Originally Posted by MERCSUk153

So what are you saying that the ECU and other electronics on the car is cooled by water cooling? That doesn't sound good either. Water and electronics don't mix.

Yes, the two DME units on the M5 are water cooled. People use water cooling circuits in high end home computer systems already. It greatly decreases the size of the required heat sinks, and pretty much eliminates any requirement for airflow around the components which are cooled. If properly designed and manufactured, there is little concern for water damaging the electronic components.

I am not talking about sensors and other crap like that, I am talking about ECU and TCU, and other electronics that control the climate control, dashboard, etc. Usually it is either placed by the firewall or the trunk. Obviously if it is in the trunk then heat won't be a problem but if it is anywhere by the firewall then better be shielded insanely as the heat from the turbo's will definitely get at it.

Heat shielding the firewall is really not much of an issue. Most cars have little to no heat shielding on the firewall. To be honest, the heat from the turbos is smaller than the heat generated by the catalytic converters, which are even closer to the firewall, but so are a lot of cats on non-turbo cars. A good example is the Acura RDX. The turbo and cat are right next to the firewall, but between the thin aluminum heat shield on the turbo/cat, the thin aluminum heat shield on the firewall, there is no significant increase in heat at the interior firewall over non-turbo designs.

This design really boggles the mind. Heat from the engine also rises so it will also heat up the cooled air somewhat as also will heat up the turbo's that are on top. I hope BMW know what they are doing with this design. I just hope this isn't one of those HPFP things.

The heating of the inducted air from the action of compressing it is much more significant than the small extra heat from being near the hot engine. The air hasn't been cooled at this point. The intercoolers are in front of the engine, and the intake is through the bottom of the cylinder heads. The real benefit of the design is the very short induction path, resulting in better throttle response.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Mattgfx

If the N54 engine runs hot as hell which it does, this engine is going to be a heat soaking monster.

Dude,
What are you talking about?
My 335i would go to 250F in no time and it's MT with oil cooler
This thing will never reach 210 no matter how hard i push it
It runs very cool

[Phil335]

Originally Posted by justinluv949

I would think the turbos would be water cooled.
The oil might eat threw that rubber connection tubing on the top of the motor?

I agree! Reminds me of the 3 rubber oil hoses on the M62 8cyl engine that would just rot away and always need to be replaced.

[m630]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

What are you talking about? M had built turbos for years as has BMW MotorSport they had 1500 HP F1 Turbos. M and BMW designed the block and reverse flow concept- M is used early on in design as an engineering base to help the transition to M cars be easier. This began with the E9X and increased with F10. Moving forward it will be even more. M is not just a tuner- the adaptive suspension in all current BMWs was developed by them.

There first offering was the N54 which they helped with, then the N63/S63 and then there is N55 and this monster. These guys over engineer everything.

M has never offered a turbo engine until the current crop, so I have no idea what you are talking about. There has NEVER been a turbo based M production car until the fake trucks, and the upcoming M5 and M6. The N54 wasnt developed by M, nor was the N63. M modified the N63 buillt by BMW, with the manifold (etc) and it has become known as the S63 first in the trucks, and the S63Tu (adding vanos) with the M5/M6. They have ZERO production experience with turbos until these offerings, meaning they are their beta products that we all have to live with and the growing pains surely to follow.

[AndreyATC]

^^ Not sure if you made typo or it's just lack of knowledge, but S63 already has VANOS
The S63Tu has VALVETRONIC

[EdwinF10]

Originally Posted by m630

M has never offered a turbo engine until the current crop, so I have no idea what you are talking about. There has NEVER been a turbo based M production car

Okay, no production car but remember this legendary turbo engine powered Brabham-BMW?

BMW M division in fact build the first turbo charged engine ever to win the formula one world championship.

I assume it's safe to say that M are no complete idiots when it comes to developing turbo charged engines

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by m630

M has never offered a turbo engine until the current crop, so I have no idea what you are talking about. There has NEVER been a turbo based M production car until the fake trucks, and the upcoming M5 and M6. The N54 wasnt developed by M, nor was the N63. M modified the N63 buillt by BMW, with the manifold (etc) and it has become known as the S63 first in the trucks, and the S63Tu (adding vanos) with the M5/M6. They have ZERO production experience with turbos until these offerings, meaning they are their beta products that we all have to live with and the growing pains surely to follow.

You think what you what to, there is a lot more that goes on behind the scenes.

And as the nice poster above also reinforced from my post... BMW M developed one hell of a turbo motor for F1 and it won. These guys do more things behind the scenes that never get the M name on it than you can even imagine.

[m630]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

^^ Not sure if you made typo or it's just lack of knowledge, but S63 already has VANOS
The S63Tu has VALVETRONIC

you are correct, I meant valvetronic

[m630]

Originally Posted by EdwinF10

Okay, no production car but remember this legendary turbo engine powered Brabham-BMW?

BMW M division in fact build the first turbo charged engine ever to win the formula one world championship.

I assume it's safe to say that M are no complete idiots when it comes to developing turbo charged engines

Thats your own personal assumption, but not a fact. The fact is that they have never offered a turbo production car, so all will suffer with their growing pains for perhaps many many years.

Think about SMG, for example, they used it in racing for a long time, but it was not a roaring success when introduced to production line cars. It took them a decade and 3 iterations to make it reliable, and then they had to drop it anyway, so regardless of tech that may work in a race, it often, and usually, does not equate to successful transition to production cars. And my point is simple, do you think they had an active program going on for turbos that they just continued down the line and made the S63Tu? I dont think so, its not like with Porsche where they've offered the turbo as one of their top of the line vehicles for the past 30+ years. I have alot of faith in the P car because they've had the time to fail and fail until getting it better and better with each successive iteration of the 911, for ex.

With M, its been 30+ years of high revving NA power only. They had no clandestine project for turbo tech that they were hiding but developing with this day in mind. No, someone, on the green kick, decided that BMW needed to be a good citizen and stop the terrible NA performance engines for the advancement of forced induction and supposed efficiency. One day we're at the top of the hill, cruisin in our V10 S85s, and then someone comes and pulls the rug out and says, sorry, you cant have that anymore if you want to stay with M, you must take what we are telling you is what you want, you want turbo because its better for the environment. And thats why we are having this argument, because of a political philosophy and not because of economics or driving dynamics, and in that BMW and M have besmeared all of their history and alienated a good portion of their loyal enthusiasts by not offering us what we want.

Again, using Porsche as the example, they are very well in tune with their core constitutients, and they offer them exactly what THEY want, not what Porsche's management says their customers want. If you want high end NA power, you can get a GT3, if you want serious FI power, you can get the TT, if you want insane track ready world killer FI power, you can get a GT2, but never has Porsche said to its enthusiasts, "We know best, We know what YOU want, and We are going to give you what we say you want".

This is what BMW and M have done. They took their entire philosophy and threw it away because someone high up the ranks was able to force their political ideology on the management team and convince them that they know best. That is the failure of BMW and M that will be the lasting effect. Id have no problem with M if they offered both a NA based engine, and a FI based engine, but to tell me what I must drive to stay with the brand is unbelievable, and ends a long tradition that they started.

Enjoy the turbos if you will, but they'll NEVER be true ///Ms

[southlight]

Your point that BMW wouldn't know what they're doing when it comes to turbo engines doesn't hold. After decades of building NA engines only they announced the N54 which was a true masterpiece back then and still is now. The rumor has it that BMW M was involved in the N54 development, and I guess that's what mapezzul is alluding to.

Same goes for the S63 which was BMW M's first official shot at a turbo engine, and it was pretty good already. The S63tu goes even further, is more responsive and revs as high as Merc's naturally aspirated 6.2l V8.


Best regards,
south

[EdwinF10]

Originally Posted by southlight

Your point that BMW wouldn't know what they're doing when it comes to turbo engines doesn't hold.

I'm with you on this.
Also, easily to forget from a NA (or M) point of view is the fact that BMW has been delivering the best turbo charged diesel engines for decades.
Admittedly, diesel turbo technology, but surely some of that experience is useful?

[1BMW4fun]

Originally Posted by EdwinF10

Okay, no production car but remember this legendary turbo engine powered Brabham-BMW?

BMW M division in fact build the first turbo charged engine ever to win the formula one world championship.

I assume it's safe to say that M are no complete idiots when it comes to developing turbo charged engines

Are you talking about the M12 engine which won in 1983? I wouldnt call it best engine as it suffered reliability in subsequence years in which Honda engines dominated for the rest of the way.

[EdwinF10]

Originally Posted by 1BMW4fun

Are you talking about the M12 engine which won in 1983? I wouldnt call it best engine as it suffered reliability in subsequence years in which Honda engines dominated for the rest of the way.

You're absolutely right about Honda bossing F1 in the eighties.

I just said (Brabham-)BMW was the FIRST turbo world champ in F1.