let's talk about AWD

[nugent]

pros, cons, would you want it in an M car?

pros:
-more traction with straight line accleration initially, which translates to better 0-60 times
-gets you OUT of corners faster, with less drama
-better wet handling when on throttle
-better snow traction - but only with snow tires

cons:
-power suck once car is rolling, which makes it slower once tires get grip
-nose heavy, more weight over the front axle, which translates to more understeer and makes getting INTO corners harder
-worse wet handling when entering curves due to being nose heavy
-less steering feel
-does not feel as fast as equally powered RWD car

would i want it in an M car? nah. i've been there with 2 good audi's, and they just felt heavy. and despite all its weight, the M5 actually feels nimble when cornering once up to speed. i don't do stop light races much, so 0-60 doesn't mean much to me.

in the end, with more and more powerful engines, AWD will look better on paper and will keep most drivers out of trouble, but at the expense of taking feedback away from the driving experience.

[stealth.pilot]

I think that making the car much easier to drive, reduces the excitement. I find AWD Porsche's and Audis pretty dull compared with RWD Porsches and BMWs.

There is something about using your skill to finely balance power traction to get the speed out of the car which you miss in AWD cars. I find driving this car fast in the rain is truly one of my favorite pleasures - partly because I know that a less skilled driver would crash it in the same circumstances.

When you were a kid and you dreamt of driving a sports car it was because of the imagery of power slides, wheel spin, etc. You never dreamt of perfect traction and clean launch - what's the fun in that!

[RPiM5]

I agree with Stealth on this one.

To me AWD should be reserved for all out sports cars and exotics with low center of gravity's. The only AWD drive cars I would personally own would be a Lambo or Audi R8, maybe a GTR.

If the current generation F10 M5 had AWD on it, I would not have gotten it. An additional 200lbs to the front of the car is noticable. I really love the superior handling characteristics of the M3 and M5 and couldn't imagine enjoying driving it without that.

[hinckley]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

An additional 200lbs to the front of the car is noticable.

Ya, on top of the 200 pounds of the F10 over the E60, and the 200 pounds of the E60 over the E39. Forget about AWD, weight's a problem with these cars right now, but we're still buying them.

[avlnch]

The F10 M5 has 560hp and I think in general 600hp is very close to the limit for RWD. Fact is, you can only have so much HP for a RWD car.. anything more and it's almost pointless because you can't get that power down to the road.

I drove an LP560-2 for a week and really enjoyed RWD on that car. As other have said, it's a lot more fun. Also the weight in the front of an AWD is really a setback.. it's useable power vs additional weight issue at hand.. Engineers need to be creative in the next coming M models.

[bufuro]

I might be dreaming.. but can they engineer the car so that in 1st gear it is AWD with 30:70 power split and from 2nd gear it becomes RWD?

again.. I might be dreaming about this.. haha

[Hunter5179]

They can totally engineer an AWD system like that. With the technology now AWD systems can easily act like rear wheel drive cars with launches utilizing 30% front 70% rear. You can always balance the car out and add much more horse power to compensate for the added weight. If they keep adding HP I believe with better tech you can have an AWD system that's smart enough to function like rear wheel but at the same time adding the security and benefits of AWD. I would go with a an AWD car if the tech was there enough to where I can have the best of both worlds without compromising either side. Imagine launch control just being a button that activates AWD just for the launch and up through second then turns off completely or for the most part after that.

[mdh]

The honest fact is that the BMW M cars are just too heavy and they can't take the additional baggage of AWD. Porsche and Audi have much lighter chassis and they can.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by bufuro

I might be dreaming.. but can they engineer the car so that in 1st gear it is AWD with 30:70 power split and from 2nd gear it becomes RWD?

again.. I might be dreaming about this.. haha

The Ferrari FF does something like this. The fwd assembly completely disengages except when it is needed so when you're cornering or acceleratong above a certain speed, you are driving a RWD car.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by mdh

The honest fact is that the BMW M cars are just too heavy and they can't take the additional baggage of AWD. Porsche and Audi have much lighter chassis and they can.

Much lighter is an exaggeration.

[avlnch]

Regarding weight, BMW has purchased a carbon company a while back and have since been working a lot with CF and CFRP. So, if they do eventually make an AWD M5 I'm sure they will use an extensive amount of CF, CFRP, and a combination of lightweight metals to subtract most of the added weight of an AWD system.

Also, regarding AWD tech.. I believe in some BMW cars they are already utilizing a 30f/70r AWD configuration. A 30f/70r in 1st gear only and or a dedicated AWD button with three config settings would be a great way to create an AWD M5 and keep current/prospect M5 customers happy and intrigued to purchase an AWD model.

[Charlie Brown]

I have to say I like the idea of AWD when you need it and RWD when you want it. Think of all the fun you'd have drifting through the snow! Personally I think AWD is the way of the future to enhance the safety of cars with ever more HP on tap. Especially for heavy cars like the M5. Even if it were a fixed 30/70 I don't see why BMW can't engineer an AWD M car to provide an exhilarating experience and driving feel. I agree with everyone about extra weight but with the right materials the system can be made relatively lite. All that said, I agree with the purist about driving feel and the advantages of RWD. I just want the option on my daily driver M5.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by avlnch

Regarding weight, BMW has purchased a carbon company a while back and have since been working a lot with CF and CFRP. So, if they do eventually make an AWD M5 I'm sure they will use an extensive amount of CF, CFRP, and a combination of lightweight metals to subtract most of the added weight of an AWD system.

Also, regarding AWD tech.. I believe in some BMW cars they are already utilizing a 30f/70r AWD configuration. A 30f/70r in 1st gear only and or a dedicated AWD button with three config settings would be a great way to create an AWD M5 and keep current/prospect M5 customers happy and intrigued to purchase an AWD model.

I'd prefer if they had 0-100% torque vectoring for each individual wheel like the Ferrari FF, with 3 modes - RWD, dynamic and max traction. The AWD system would enhance steering precision in the max traction mode without any distortion because of the lateral torque vectoring. The dynamic mode would provide basic torque vectoring to the front wheels for acceleration, but preserve the RWD character for cornering and higher speeds. The RWD mode would give us our current experience.

[thebishman]

The M5 will probably end up with AWD because 0-62 kph times are important to the marketing staff and that's where Audi and now Merc are; hence BMW will have to follow to remain competitive, (even as we all know it's hardly relevant in daily driving). That being said, you can easily configure the car to be almost entirely RWD until slippage is noticed at any wheel at which time varying amounts of torque can then be moved forward. Certainly it would enhance sales in the snow belt states/countries. Lastly it wouldn't make the car understeer as much as an Audi for example since the engine is set further back in the BMW and hence less weight, even with an on-demand AWD system, would be present over the front wheels.
Would I buy an M5 with AWD? Damn right I would as I believe the benefits would outway the negatives since this car is already severely traction limited.
Bish

[mainly]

yes i would definately take the AWD version. as long as they could subtract the added weight( and then some) from elsewhere in the car. and they should be able to.

anybody can make a car heavier, try to make one lighter for a change, will ya BMW???

[krown]

Originally Posted by thebishman

The M5 will probably end up with AWD because 0-62 kph times are important to the marketing staff and that's where Audi and now Merc are; hence BMW will have to follow to remain competitive, (even as we all know it's hardly relevant in daily driving). That being said, you can easily configure the car to be almost entirely RWD until slippage is noticed at any wheel at which time varying amounts of torque can then be moved forward. Certainly it would enhance sales in the snow belt states/countries. Lastly it wouldn't make the car understeer as much as an Audi for example since the engine is set further back in the BMW and hence less weight, even with an on-demand AWD system, would be present over the front wheels.
Would I buy an M5 with AWD? Damn right I would as I believe the benefits would outway the negatives since this car is already severely traction limited.
Bish

+1

I love my M5, and the only reason why I would even consider the new E63 is the AWD.

If BMW made an M5 AWD, it's a no-brainer. BMW is in it to make money, and unfortunately, and AWD M5 will mean guaranteed increased sales.

[RPiM5]

I wish that BMW would at least make an F11 M5 Touring. I wouldn't get one myself but it would be nice.

This E63 S-AMG Wagon has AWD drive as well.

[boots]

Hey What about Ken Blocks Ford Fiesta. It is as bad as they come. I'd love to have a version of his car.

Originally Posted by RPiM5

To me AWD should be reserved for all out sports cars and exotics with low center of gravity's. The only AWD drive cars I would personally own would be a Lambo or Audi R8, maybe a GTR.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by avlnch

The F10 M5 has 560hp and I think in general 600hp is very close to the limit for RWD. Fact is, you can only have so much HP for a RWD car.. anything more and it's almost pointless because you can't get that power down to the road.

I drove an LP560-2 for a week and really enjoyed RWD on that car. As other have said, it's a lot more fun. Also the weight in the front of an AWD is really a setback.. it's useable power vs additional weight issue at hand.. Engineers need to be creative in the next coming M models.

Just curious. Where did you get your engineering degree?

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by boots

Hey What about Ken Blocks Ford Fiesta. It is as bad as they come. I'd love to have a version of his car.

Indeed, or a purpose built AWD rally drift car.

I always loved that video. One day I will do that with an F10 M5.