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      06-04-2012, 01:53 PM   #23
Diver
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Does anyone know what sort of improvement in stopping distances this provides? Would that be for a single abrupt stop on the street, or is the main benefit fade resistance in repeated stops on a track?
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      06-04-2012, 02:03 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Of COURSE the retrofit will be more expensive; the upgrade is the marginal cost over the steel brake system, but unless you can find a buyback for your (used) steel brakes when you upgrade to carbon ceramic, you're essentially ending up with both brake sets, hence the added cost.

I wouldn't recommend an aftermarket setup since I figure the ABS and DSC systems would need to be recalibrated in order to function properly with carbon ceramic given they have vastly different properties -- unless you can also find someone who knows how to code the car appropriately.

$20K might be a bit high, but probably not outrageous. The carbon ceramic option on the M5/M6 was priced at $8700, which is similar to Porsche's upgrade pricing, and Porsche ceramic front rotors are $4K -- each. Double that, add the cost of rear rotors, a full set of pads, plus possibly new calipers, and I can see that reaching near $20K. In fact Porsche DOES offer a carbon ceramic retrofit kit, which might be a good reference point, but I don't have time to look its price up right now.

And all of this completely ignores that point that for a street car, carbon ceramics are ALL downsides except for reduced brake dust. Otherwise, you'll be dealing with squealing, obscenely expensive brake replacement (which I suspect will actually hurt resale from prospective second owners not wanting to have that looming on the horizon), and very fragile rotors that have to be replaced at huge cost if they're nicked by road debris or while mounting/unmounting a wheel. Carbon ceramic has no place on a street car IMHO, and even track junkies on the Porsche side end up switching back to a steel after damaging or wearing out a couple rotors because of the obscene cost. A steel BBK can often deliver similar fade resistance to carbon ceramic at a fraction of the cost.
I agree with all of this, John. Though I would add that the one benefit of having ceramic brakes over steel is the weight savings, and that's a benefit that can be felt both on the track and on the street. I believe BMW said that the ceramic option saves 44 pounds of unsprung weight, and that's enough to be felt . I felt a difference in steering when I added about 5 pounds of unsprung weight by switching wheels and tires two years ago, so I'm guessing 44 pounds will make a much more noticeable difference.

Now, is that difference worth the price? Not if I'm writing the check.
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      06-04-2012, 02:37 PM   #25
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They do exist! I've seen them! Maybe this was a factory test car?
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      06-04-2012, 03:33 PM   #26
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This is for sure a curious decision taken by BMW
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      06-04-2012, 04:01 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddigangi View Post
Hmm..actually Brembo would be cheaper, average is about $3000-$4000 for front or back for street applications and that is not including any discounts you get knocked off (even if its a few hundred bucks)
You can get the carbon ceramic rotors for $3,000-4,000??? I'd like to know where. Or are you talking about the steel rotor kits?

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Originally Posted by Diver View Post
Does anyone know what sort of improvement in stopping distances this provides? Would that be for a single abrupt stop on the street, or is the main benefit fade resistance in repeated stops on a track?
No improvement in stopping distance. They're suppose to last longer, BUT ONLY if you use the proper pads. The Porsche guys found out the hard way when they put on track pads on the ceramic rotors and killed them in a couple track events.
The only other improvement is weight savings, like someone said above.

.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."

Last edited by aus; 06-04-2012 at 07:04 PM.
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      06-04-2012, 04:52 PM   #28
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This is for sure a curious decision taken by BMW
Agreed
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      06-04-2012, 07:08 PM   #29
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Who makes CCB for less than $8,000?
Because these Brembo's where WAY more than $8,000!!
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694545
These are CCM-R. Same ones used in the Ferrari 458 Challenge cars. So it is not the same as the M5/M6 ceramics.

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Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
I wouldn't recommend an aftermarket setup since I figure the ABS and DSC systems would need to be recalibrated in order to function properly with carbon ceramic given they have vastly different properties -- unless you can also find someone who knows how to code the car appropriately.

And all of this completely ignores that point that for a street car, carbon ceramics are ALL downsides except for reduced brake dust. Otherwise, you'll be dealing with squealing, obscenely expensive brake replacement (which I suspect will actually hurt resale from prospective second owners not wanting to have that looming on the horizon), and very fragile rotors that have to be replaced at huge cost if they're nicked by road debris or while mounting/unmounting a wheel. Carbon ceramic has no place on a street car IMHO, and even track junkies on the Porsche side end up switching back to a steel after damaging or wearing out a couple rotors because of the obscene cost. A steel BBK can often deliver similar fade resistance to carbon ceramic at a fraction of the cost.
No recoding requires for Brembos. The M5/6 is supposed to be a new type and supposed to have overcome the PCCB problems. The massive unsprung improves handling, comfort, usable hp and efficiency. 40lbs of unsprung is substantial. However, i don't know how long it will last still, and if this CCM is trackable.

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You can get the carbon ceramic rotors for $3,000-4,000??? I'd like to know where.

No improvement in stopping distance. They're suppose to last longer, BUT ONLY if you use the proper pads. The Porsche guys found out the hard way when they put on track pads on the ceramic rotors and killed them in a couple track events.
The only other improvement is weight savings, like someone said above.
.
That's why many PCCB guys went back to steel, and some Ferrari guys gone to Mov'it. The CCM-R on Powerbeasts are new brakes that have overcame the earlier problems of PCCBs. The Ferrari Challenge CCM-R last a whole season or 5000 track miles.

Not sure if the CCM-Rs are available for the M5s yet, but they would be superior to the optional Ceramics. It would be a bit costly though.
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      06-04-2012, 08:46 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Swadeness View Post
They do exist! I've seen them! Maybe this was a factory test car?
Most likely. I saw them on the M6 Coupe that was displayed at BMW of Austin; it was BMW's backup auto show car.
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      06-05-2012, 02:50 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver View Post
Does anyone know what sort of improvement in stopping distances this provides? Would that be for a single abrupt stop on the street, or is the main benefit fade resistance in repeated stops on a track?
Exactly zero feet.

The weakest link is the tire, so upgrading any other component cannot decrease stopping distance while the grip level of the tire remains constant. As long as the brakes are strong enough to lock up the tire (which they obviously are) this will always be true. The benefits of carbon ceramic brakes are their incredible resistance to heat and fade and their light weight which improves performance (a little) and ride comfort (quite a bit).
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      06-05-2012, 10:53 AM   #32
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Big Brakes still win on Performance and bling bling, I wonder why BMW gives stock brakes at rear?
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      06-05-2012, 02:38 PM   #33
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Big Brakes still win on Performance and bling bling, I wonder why BMW gives stock brakes at rear?
I'm more upset about a $100,000 car still having a sliding caliper than a delay in a carbon ceramic rotor. It's truly embarassing to still have a sliding caliper on this beast.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      06-05-2012, 03:14 PM   #34
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Finally I think there are good enough aftermarket brake kits available to forgot about this option
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      06-08-2012, 10:15 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Of COURSE the retrofit will be more expensive; the upgrade is the marginal cost over the steel brake system, but unless you can find a buyback for your (used) steel brakes when you upgrade to carbon ceramic, you're essentially ending up with both brake sets, hence the added cost.

I wouldn't recommend an aftermarket setup since I figure the ABS and DSC systems would need to be recalibrated in order to function properly with carbon ceramic given they have vastly different properties -- unless you can also find someone who knows how to code the car appropriately.

$20K might be a bit high, but probably not outrageous. The carbon ceramic option on the M5/M6 was priced at $8700, which is similar to Porsche's upgrade pricing, and Porsche ceramic front rotors are $4K -- each. Double that, add the cost of rear rotors, a full set of pads, plus possibly new calipers, and I can see that reaching near $20K. In fact Porsche DOES offer a carbon ceramic retrofit kit, which might be a good reference point, but I don't have time to look its price up right now.

And all of this completely ignores that point that for a street car, carbon ceramics are ALL downsides except for reduced brake dust. Otherwise, you'll be dealing with squealing, obscenely expensive brake replacement (which I suspect will actually hurt resale from prospective second owners not wanting to have that looming on the horizon), and very fragile rotors that have to be replaced at huge cost if they're nicked by road debris or while mounting/unmounting a wheel. Carbon ceramic has no place on a street car IMHO, and even track junkies on the Porsche side end up switching back to a steel after damaging or wearing out a couple rotors because of the obscene cost. A steel BBK can often deliver similar fade resistance to carbon ceramic at a fraction of the cost.
22k from Porsche and Sharkwerks sold the kit for 18k. I wouldn't mind spending the cash up front to have the ceramics. BUt I would need them to last at least 150k. I honestly have no idea how long the rotors should last. I know on my old e36m I replaced rotors ever 10-15k with a few track days. I know the dealer replaced the rotors on my current e92m at around 40k and that was before the car had seen any track days. If these brakes could do 150k with a couple track days a year I would consider. I just hope they carry over the exact same brakes from the M5/6 to the new m3. I see it as a way for bmw to save some money and give consumers a product we want.
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      06-08-2012, 11:15 AM   #36
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Good that they're not available. A ridiculous option for any street car.

All you need to do with the brakes for track duty is to replace the pads with Pagid Yellows and replace the fluid with a good race fluid. If you're still driving hard enough to fade the brakes, you'll need a new set of tires after a few sessions.

Ceramic brakes on a street car are noisy, expensive, fragile, and simply don't work as well as a good set of steel brakes. If you get silicone spray or Armor All on the rotors, you'll need to replace them. I don't believe there is a perceptible difference in ride quality or handling. The car's handling and ride was designed and optimized for standard steel brakes. Of course, if you've spent almost $10K on something, there's a powerful motivation to feel a number of benefits and advantages. Here's some more expert opinion:

One of the EVO mag contributors, Simon George, is involved in a supercar driving experience business (www.6thgeardrivingexperienceeurope.co.uk) and wrote a piece replacing the carbon ceramic brakes with steel for a new acquisition. The quote was along the lines of 'There is no place for carbon ceramic brakes on a road car'. A brief seach turns up this exerpt from the 6th gear blog...
---quote---
Take our Lamborghini LP640 for instance. We ordered this car back in May 2007 and specifically requested it wasn’t fitted with ceramics. The reason for this is standard steel brakes are much more progressive with far better ‘feel’ than ceramics. Jump behind the wheel of a Supercar with cold ceramic brakes and attempt to stop and you could be in for a nasty shock. The steel brakes on the LP640 are superb hot or cold. So we decided to replace all our ceramic braked equipped supercars this winter with bespoke steel alternatives.
---end quote---
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      06-08-2012, 12:36 PM   #37
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Yeah I know there are many downfalls to these brake systems. I would like to have them for the bling factor and for my track days (admit-tingly I am not good enough to outdo the steel brakes) but I did not know they still have the heat problem. I was under the impression that ceramic brake systems have advanced to the point where they do not have to be brought up to operating temp. Well that just saved me 8k+ I didn't know that they could be rendered useless by silicon sprays though. Why is that? Just curious...
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      06-08-2012, 12:55 PM   #38
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Quote:
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22k from Porsche and Sharkwerks sold the kit for 18k. I wouldn't mind spending the cash up front to have the ceramics. BUt I would need them to last at least 150k. I honestly have no idea how long the rotors should last. I know on my old e36m I replaced rotors ever 10-15k with a few track days. I know the dealer replaced the rotors on my current e92m at around 40k and that was before the car had seen any track days. If these brakes could do 150k with a couple track days a year I would consider. I just hope they carry over the exact same brakes from the M5/6 to the new m3. I see it as a way for bmw to save some money and give consumers a product we want.
If the carbon ceramics really did last 150K, that would ALMOST make them worth it in terms of cost per mile compared to steel -- almost. But I haven't seen anyone talk about any ceramics lasting that long, and as others have said, you'd still be left with the other road problems (squealing, difficult cold braking, etc). Also, I doubt the EXACT same brakes will be available on the next M3 seeing as on the M5/6 they require 20" wheels -- unless BMW will really fit the next M3 with 20s as a factory option, which I doubt.
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      06-08-2012, 02:20 PM   #39
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True but the standard m5/6 brakes fit 19s so I think the standard brakes should be considered. And you now have standard 20in rims on 911's so I wouldn't be surprised if the new M3 comes on 19's standard and 20s as an option.
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