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      06-21-2012, 02:27 AM   #45
Remonster
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BMW, I'll tell you why no one buys the M5/M6 with a manual transmissions: the manual transmission was an afterthought on the E60 generation and it was blatantly obvious from the driver's seat. I've had the pleasure of driving every generation of M3 and M5 except for the E30 M3 and E28 M5 and I remember the first time I got behind the wheel of an E60 M5 with the manual transmission and being shocked at how awful the shifter felt. The last 3 cars I've owned have been manual BMWs (non M) so I was expecting the smooth shifts of my cars but the M cars always seemed to have this terrible, notchy, rough shifting feel that slowed down my shifts when I wanted to drive quickly and was even more annoying when I was just cruising around. My brother had an E90 M3 that I spent a lot of time driving and that also had one of the worst manual transmissions I have ever experienced. I just don't get what the problem is, the standard 335i comes with a perfectly fine manual transmission and there are guys running around with 450lb/ft of torque or even more and it doesn't seem to be a weak point so how come you guys can't get it right on the M cars?

The E46 M3 was the last M car I've driven that felt like it was designed with the manual in mind and that is also the last M car I would personally buy with the 6MT. I usually hate any type of automatic transmission but the manuals in the new M cars are so terrible that I would rather have a DCT.
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      06-21-2012, 02:40 AM   #46
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I'm a MT big fun as a I love to change the gears a lot.
My opinion is that M5 is too large and too heavy to obtain the best performances with a MT. The situation is completly different when we speak about much more oriented track cars from BMW line-up: M3, 1M, M135i Performance, Z4, future Z2 and so on...
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      06-21-2012, 03:10 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 宝马.e90 View Post
They bounce off redline, you have to shift. To those that fiend for a MT, it's not about the the shifting or performance that comes with a DCT, it's the feel of rowing the gears that people enjoy/want. You can drive the shittiest car that has a manual and it'll still be fun.
So true, I drove my friend's old... I believe 199x camry and it was fun. I like how the clutch works better than my m3.... He also has an old miata he got for 3,000 and the clutch on that thing is amazing.... you can pretty much dump the clutch if you have the gas down a little and it will go pretty smoothly... oh and his miata's synchro is messed up but it was still fun.
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      06-21-2012, 03:14 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
BMW, I'll tell you why no one buys the M5/M6 with a manual transmissions: the manual transmission was an afterthought on the E60 generation and it was blatantly obvious from the driver's seat. I've had the pleasure of driving every generation of M3 and M5 except for the E30 M3 and E28 M5 and I remember the first time I got behind the wheel of an E60 M5 with the manual transmission and being shocked at how awful the shifter felt. The last 3 cars I've owned have been manual BMWs (non M) so I was expecting the smooth shifts of my cars but the M cars always seemed to have this terrible, notchy, rough shifting feel that slowed down my shifts when I wanted to drive quickly and was even more annoying when I was just cruising around. My brother had an E90 M3 that I spent a lot of time driving and that also had one of the worst manual transmissions I have ever experienced. I just don't get what the problem is, the standard 335i comes with a perfectly fine manual transmission and there are guys running around with 450lb/ft of torque or even more and it doesn't seem to be a weak point so how come you guys can't get it right on the M cars?

The E46 M3 was the last M car I've driven that felt like it was designed with the manual in mind and that is also the last M car I would personally buy with the 6MT. I usually hate any type of automatic transmission but the manuals in the new M cars are so terrible that I would rather have a DCT.
I have yet to drive an e46 m3... but I agree... e9x m3 in MT is horrible. Sometimes I wish I ordered DCT because of how horrible the MT felt.
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      06-21-2012, 05:08 AM   #49
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YES! finally haha
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      06-21-2012, 05:26 AM   #50
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Yeah, I don't get that either. It is not like having a manual option hurts those that don't see the point.

And to all those who don't understand wanting to drive a manual, why does anyone have to like anything? I like mechanical watches, sure there are digital watches (heck, my iPhone included) that keep better time, but I still prefer a good mechanical watch to anything else. And I prefer to row my own gears... sure technology can do it faster, but I just prefer it. Driving is not the same for me if I am not working 3 pedals. It's just not. Call me whatever you want, but it is what I like.

I think it is a shame, and I find it curious that BMW is making this public so far out in the future.
I understand your stance perfectly, and automatic watches are lovely, but really you shouldn't be surprised. If Ferrari have all but ditched manual transmissions entirely why should you be surprised BMW springs an early obituary for the manual M5? To my mind it's simply not that kind of car anymore, I agree those looking for a manual M5 should probably buy an M3 instead.

And it's not just BMW and Ferrari, Porsche are (deliberately/cynically or not) giving manual drivers pause for thought for the first time - does a 7-speed manual 911 have one gear too many for hand-and-foot shifting? I can guarantee you the ratio of manual/auto for new 911s will increase dramatically. Also, the Stuttgart company has confirmed that for the first time the next GT3 will have a PDK option - that should make one think a bit longer too.
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      06-21-2012, 06:14 AM   #51
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I understand your stance perfectly, and automatic watches are lovely, but really you shouldn't be surprised. If Ferrari have all but ditched manual transmissions entirely why should you be surprised BMW springs an early obituary for the manual M5? To my mind it's simply not that kind of car anymore, I agree those looking for a manual M5 should probably buy an M3 instead.

And it's not just BMW and Ferrari, Porsche are (deliberately/cynically or not) giving manual drivers pause for thought for the first time - does a 7-speed manual 911 have one gear too many for hand-and-foot shifting? I can guarantee you the ratio of manual/auto for new 911s will increase dramatically. Also, the Stuttgart company has confirmed that for the first time the next GT3 will have a PDK option - that should make one think a bit longer too.
Those are fair points... and I guess the writing has been on the wall for sometime regarding manuals. Still makes me a bit sad.
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      06-21-2012, 07:50 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
BMW, I'll tell you why no one buys the M5/M6 with a manual transmissions: the manual transmission was an afterthought on the E60 generation and it was blatantly obvious from the driver's seat. I've had the pleasure of driving every generation of M3 and M5 except for the E30 M3 and E28 M5 and I remember the first time I got behind the wheel of an E60 M5 with the manual transmission and being shocked at how awful the shifter felt. The last 3 cars I've owned have been manual BMWs (non M) so I was expecting the smooth shifts of my cars but the M cars always seemed to have this terrible, notchy, rough shifting feel that slowed down my shifts when I wanted to drive quickly and was even more annoying when I was just cruising around. My brother had an E90 M3 that I spent a lot of time driving and that also had one of the worst manual transmissions I have ever experienced. I just don't get what the problem is, the standard 335i comes with a perfectly fine manual transmission and there are guys running around with 450lb/ft of torque or even more and it doesn't seem to be a weak point so how come you guys can't get it right on the M cars?
.
I disagree. For one, the manual in the E60 was just fine (yea, a bit long on the throws but the shifter did not feel awful). Plus, compared with the SMG, around town it was MUCH smoother.
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      06-21-2012, 08:29 AM   #53
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It is funny that Americans judge themselves "hardcore" manual transmission fans, but actually Europe has a much higher manual transmission mix than the U.S. where most countries they would not even allow you to take the driver's license test in an automatic car. The only reason people say they demand a manual here is not because they actually prefer the manual transmission, but because they either let themselves get influenced by stupid car magazines or because they want show off their friends they are "hardcore" car enthusiasts. I grew up driving stick shifts in the early 90s and did not change to another transmission until 2004 with my first BMW with SMG and never looked back. I understand regular automatics suck, but DSG is the future and provide the same driving pleasure of a manual transmission with some many advantages such as more gears, quicker shifts, automatic rev matches, higher fuel economy etc. and still allow people to move thru the gears with a stick. Let's stop this non sense people please.
That's definitely true. A large amount of people here in the states (and on this forum) have an elitist mentality about being able to drive manual. According to them it makes you more of a man.

But I still think everyone should have options and be able to select what they like. I guess BMW knows whats best for their product but people are correct in saying it would make the M5 less differentiated from other sedans. Then again this is 2018/2019 we're talking about so who knows what will change between now and then.
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      06-21-2012, 08:40 AM   #54
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No surprise about this announcement. HATE IT, but hardly surprising.

For me, it doesn't matter how fast or how efficient the new auto transmissions might be (be it DCT, PDK, DSG, etc), they will never provide the driving satisfaction that a manual transmission does (to me at least).

No need to panic though. There are PLENTY outstanding manual cars in the used car market, and the best part is that they cost less and less every day.
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      06-21-2012, 09:17 AM   #55
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Not the first time they said this. Remember that the E60 M5 wasn't going to have a manual either, and BMW made it happen at the last minute due to an outcry from the US market. And now we're on our 2nd M5 model since they said they wouldn't have one. And now they're saying they won't have one for the 3rd revision from when they first said we wouldn't have one.

I don't really care, but I wish M5 buyers had their choice. It's not an interesting car to me anymore; I've always wanted an E39 M5, but the bigger cars don't interest me. Now that the F30 is E39 size, it seems just right. So that's probably the answer -- when the next M5 comes out in 2018 or whatever, but an M3 instead -- it'll be plenty big, and have a stick!

As everyone else has pointed out, it's not about shifting speed or MPG (on an M5.. really??)
It's simply a blast to drive a stick. I can't bring myself to drive a boring-ass automatic or DCT, I'd find driving miserable. I enjoy doing things that exercise my muscle memory and exhibit skill. Every time I hop on the motorcycle, even if I haven't ridden in 6 months, I can rev match and bang down thru the gears like I did it yesterday... or typing when I really get into a groove and can fly over the keys.. It's such an ENJOYABLE feeling. It's like asking why you'd want to drive on the track when you just go in circles and end up where you started. Those who get it, get it.
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      06-21-2012, 09:28 AM   #56
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any one notice that the MT option is still shown on BMWusa.com when configuring an M5.....
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      06-21-2012, 09:29 AM   #57
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I guess some (not many) M5 owners will have to go slumming on the M3 side of the showroom.
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      06-21-2012, 09:34 AM   #58
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any one notice that the MT option is still shown on BMWusa.com when configuring an M5.....
They are talking about the NEXT Gen M5 (2018/2019). Which is just silly, because I'm pretty sure they are not making decisions like that this far out.
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      06-21-2012, 09:52 AM   #59
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One must ask, exactly what is different about US customers that makes them want a manual transmission when nobody else does. Beats me, and I live in the US.
I posted an answer to this in the 7-speed manual thread:

In Europe about 80% of cars are manual transmissions; hell, one of the tour buses I was on in Italy had an 8-speed manual. The reason is that cars are a hell of a lot more expensive pretty much everywhere else in the world, so the marginal cost of anything except a traditional manual is MUCH more significant there -- so most people get manual. And consequently, pretty much everyone everywhere outside the US knows how to drive stick, so it's not seen as some sort of enthusiast Jedi power the way it is here. In fact the non-US enthusiasts and wealthier people are almost always driving SMG/PDK/DCT if their cars can be ordered thusly, because not only would they not impress anybody by driving driving stick, but having the "faster, more advanced, (usually) more expensive" transmission there is a status symbol, so that's the alternative they pick.
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      06-21-2012, 10:00 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truths2k05
. "From a technology perspective, you get better gas mileage from the 7SP DCT than the 6SPD MT"

Incorrect my dear friend, manual gets better gas mileage than DCT.
In regards to first class, once I get a taste of something better, it makes me strive harder to improve my financials to achieve that higher plane.
Nope, you are the one who is incorrect.

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      06-21-2012, 10:01 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barcius View Post
It is funny that Americans judge themselves "hardcore" manual transmission fans, but actually Europe has a much higher manual transmission mix than the U.S. where most countries they would not even allow you to take the driver's license test in an automatic car. The only reason people say they demand a manual here is not because they actually prefer the manual transmission, but because they either let themselves get influenced by stupid car magazines or because they want show off their friends they are "hardcore" car enthusiasts....DSG is the future and provide the same driving pleasure of a manual transmission...
I agree with the part about it being funny that Americans think they're hardcore for being able to drive stick when the entire rest of the world can, but saying that people only buy stick for the image it conveys -- really?? That might be an added bonus, but I highly doubt that's the main reason for people's decisions.

And sorry, DSG/DCT/PDK etc are all very good and highly impressive engineering achievements, but they don't provide the same enjoyment. Sometimes constant perfection can be addictive and awesome, but other times there's a lot more fun to be had in relentlessly pursuing the perfectly smooth upshift or heel-toe rev-matched downshift executed by YOU every time, and feeling like a hero on the few occasions where you get it exactly right. It's like the joy of learning a craft, where you get more out of it as you invest more time and effort into it. My M3 is my first manual transmission car and I don't see myself going back any time soon. Just my 2 cents.
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      06-21-2012, 10:04 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
I agree with the part about it being funny that Americans think they're hardcore for being able to drive stick when the entire rest of the world can, but saying that people only buy stick for the image it conveys -- really?? That might be an added bonus, but I highly doubt that's the main reason for people's decisions.

And sorry, DSG/DCT/PDK etc are all very good and highly impressive engineering achievements, but they don't provide the same enjoyment. Sometimes constant perfection can be addictive and awesome, but other times there's a lot more fun to be had in relentlessly pursuing the perfectly smooth upshift or heel-toe rev-matched downshift executed by YOU every time, and feeling like a hero on the few occasions where you get it exactly right. It's like the joy of learning a craft, and getting more out of it as you invest more time and effort into it. Just my 2 cents.
+10000

The older I get, the more enjoyment I find in shifting manually. I love the DCT's also but I don't get the same enjoyment out of them... apart from the throttle blipping. Having a size 16 shoe will really cramp your style when trying to execute a heel toe downshift!
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      06-21-2012, 10:10 AM   #63
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Clearly this is just a matter of supply and demand, not really engineering.

Perhaps the early communication of this is to let everyone have a good long time to bitch and complain and get it out of their system way before the next generation comes out.

As I grow older, I'm more likely to migrate to an M6, but I'm pretty sure I'll never buy it with a DCT. So perhaps all roads will finally lead to Porsche.

Porsche would never do this to its customers, but then again Porsche is a true sports car.
.
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      06-21-2012, 10:16 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaSyrup
What are people like me supposed to do? I've driven manual transmissions all my life. I have no idea of how to drive an automatic.
I hope this is a joke. It's automatic...you need not know anything.
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      06-21-2012, 10:21 AM   #65
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I'm curious why you two posted comments like this. Why exactly does the M5 having a manual transmission upset you?
Only reason I can think of is the cost of developing the MT - is it passed off onto the overall cost of the car? If it is, then I'd prefer them just do DCT since I'm getting it anyways and save some coin. Granted at $100k, I doubt BMW is worried about keeping pricing low anyways.
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      06-21-2012, 10:34 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 宝马.e90
They bounce off redline, you have to shift. To those that fiend for a MT, it's not about the the shifting or performance that comes with a DCT, it's the feel of rowing the gears that people enjoy/want. You can drive the shittiest car that has a manual and it'll still be fun.
+1
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