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      09-26-2012, 03:40 AM   #1
singularity
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Safety and 315 km/h

Prelude: Saw an amateur video of a fatal roll-on crash of a 2006 Dodge Viper (tuned to 900 hp) with both driver and passenger being dead. Viper was ahead of 458 Italia line when it braked momentarily and immediately turned left and hit the wall, eventually losing control of the car completely and rolling over several times. It's said the speed was well over 250 km/h.

I've driven M6 (E63) and M5 (F10) well over speedometer 300 km/h occasionally, with the latter being driven 287 km/h on a slippery autobahn as snow was falling and I could see my trails in the mirror. Many people do high-speed driving on autobahns and other safe controlled environments, but the question is - are these cars engineered and thoroughly tested for these speeds? I have the driver's package on my car so the limited top speed is 315 km/h but seeing a Viper (supercar with known poor handling) crash into a wall for no apparent reason makes me think things over.

The question is: What can make our M5 F10 lose control at such high speeds if the road is straight and dry (wind, tire issues, jammed brakes)?

I've read for the M5 F10 family and their dog which survived the 300 km/h autobahn crash because of another careless driver joining the highway. I've also seen the M5 commercial where the BMW test driver is drinking coffee while looking at his 315 km/h on his speedometer.
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      09-26-2012, 05:12 AM   #2
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Oil pump issue leading to catastrophic engine failure... Been 9 instances of this worldwide already with the M5.
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      09-26-2012, 05:19 AM   #3
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How about applying some common sense and drive at speeds suitable to the environment/situation ?
Doing +250km/h on snow covered/coated roads will sooner or later take you out the gene pool (and for some good reason).

Quote:
The question is: What can make our M5 F10 lose control at such high speeds if the road is straight and dry (wind, tire issues, jammed brakes)?
Acting stupid and not using using the "device" between your shoulders....
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      09-26-2012, 05:24 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgarvish View Post
Oil pump issue leading to catastrophic engine failure... Been 9 instances of this worldwide already with the M5.
Thanks for the reply, but I couldn't find anything on the oil pump matter except this article, and the article is mistakenly talking about 5 series F10 whereas the pictures are of the F80 3 series.

I've driven my M5 multiple times at over 300 km/h and the car seems very stable and calm at that speed. What worries me is what could be potential causes to high speed accidents and what are most important things to double-check before taking your car to high speed runs (for example higher tire pressure).
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      09-26-2012, 05:26 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh View Post
How about applying some common sense and drive at speeds suitable to the environment/situation ?
Doing +250km/h on snow covered/coated roads will sooner or later take you out the gene pool (and for some good reason).



Acting stupid and not using using the "device" between your shoulders....
You're right and I agree, it was only a one-time drive and the car was newly broken-in. After I came back home that day I was always mindful of that experience to never try again.
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      09-26-2012, 05:37 AM   #6
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I believe no one can tell you what will happen. At that kind of speed even a smallest stone chip coming from the car in front could cause fatal accident, not to mention about any engine failure, brake don't work, tyres....etc.
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      09-26-2012, 05:45 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh View Post
Acting stupid and not using using the "device" between your shoulders....
Please read the question at least and refrain from being rude. Don't make vague shortsighted statements if you have no knowledge of the subject.
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      09-26-2012, 06:06 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by singularity View Post
Please read the question at least and refrain from being rude. Don't make vague shortsighted statements if you have no knowledge of the subject.
well asking how to be safe at +300km/h or what can happen is pretty similar to asking to how to survive a plane crash (best answer usually is that it will at least get you to the crash site)

There's really no telling (no car manufacturer will build their cars with the intention to handle a +300km/h accident) and I'd say that any instance where people "walked" away from high speed accidents should be considered the exception.
I also believe there are certain things one just should not do such as careless/reckless negligence (driving at high speeds on unsafe roads, heavy traffic, passing right etc) as it's just asking for "trouble"

I think I have quite a bit of knowledge on the topic of driving at high speeds and have seen my share or people on the road not just getting themselves into trouble but also others around them (I really couldn't care about them as Darwin will find them, but other innocent people are often involved too) .
If you drive at these speeds you on purpose take a risk and most likely should not worry about mechanical failures (if your car is well maintained) but other people making unforeseen movements (getting into your lane, unpredictable moves) which will get you into trouble.

just my 2c
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      09-26-2012, 06:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgarvish
Oil pump issue leading to catastrophic engine failure... Been 9 instances of this worldwide already with the M5.
Where did you learn that there were nine instances? I thought there is only one known incident?
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      09-26-2012, 06:42 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh View Post
well asking how to be safe at +300km/h or what can happen is pretty similar to asking to how to survive a plane crash (best answer usually is that it will at least get you to the crash site)

There's really no telling (no car manufacturer will build their cars with the intention to handle a +300km/h accident) and I'd say that any instance where people "walked" away from high speed accidents should be considered the exception.
I also believe there are certain things one just should not do such as careless/reckless negligence (driving at high speeds on unsafe roads, heavy traffic, passing right etc) as it's just asking for "trouble"

I think I have quite a bit of knowledge on the topic of driving at high speeds and have seen my share or people on the road not just getting themselves into trouble but also others around them (I really couldn't care about them as Darwin will find them, but other innocent people are often involved too) .
If you drive at these speeds you on purpose take a risk and most likely should not worry about mechanical failures (if your car is well maintained) but other people making unforeseen movements (getting into your lane, unpredictable moves) which will get you into trouble.

just my 2c
Thanks for the reply. I'm all for responsible and safe driving at all times. But at times I also participate races from a roll and I wondered about could possibly cause a car to lose control on a dry, empty straight road.

It's just that I saw the accident with a Viper and I can't find an answer what could cause a car in a straight empty road lose control and crash, whether it could be aftermarket forced induction on a N/A car or jammed brakes.

I guess I'm trying to find comfort in M5's superior high speed engineering and testing compared to some other super cars with questionable build quality, handling and impact of aftermarket modifications and safety of a sedan compared to a cabrio roadster.
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      09-26-2012, 09:42 AM   #11
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I don't have my F10 M5 yet, but do have extensive high speed driving experience with an un-governed and tuned e39 M5. That car would hit 310 +/- kph depending on the day, but the car wasn't really stable and confidence inspiring much above 260 kph. The draft from other vehicles, cross winds, gust and very small road irregularities would cause chassis unsettlement...and angst.

I had the car in DE for some time and generally held it to < 250kph as it always seemed in control at those speeds. i did have access, though, to another E39 M5 through M engineering that was really pinned to the ground at speeds >250 kph, so it is possible to drive very fast safely. The M development car was not much fun driving around the streets of Bad Homburg and Munich; it really was most comfortable on a track.

I think aero, both body and under chassis, coupled with spec tires and suspension are the keys to driving safely - but don't forget the uncertainties of public roads and your own capabilities.
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      09-26-2012, 10:11 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkreidel View Post
I don't have my F10 M5 yet, but do have extensive high speed driving experience with an un-governed and tuned e39 M5. That car would hit 310 +/- kph depending on the day, but the car wasn't really stable and confidence inspiring much above 260 kph. The draft from other vehicles, cross winds, gust and very small road irregularities would cause chassis unsettlement...and angst.

I had the car in DE for some time and generally held it to < 250kph as it always seemed in control at those speeds. i did have access, though, to another E39 M5 through M engineering that was really pinned to the ground at speeds >250 kph, so it is possible to drive very fast safely. The M development car was not much fun driving around the streets of Bad Homburg and Munich; it really was most comfortable on a track.

I think aero, both body and under chassis, coupled with spec tires and suspension are the keys to driving safely - but don't forget the uncertainties of public roads and your own capabilities.
Thanks for the input, I have also experienced some of the points you mentioned. I was once racing from a roll with DSC OFF and at 211 km/h (remember this exactly) the car started swaying left and right because of dust on road and a side-wind. I'm being inclined to sticking to DSC ON for all speeds above 150 km/h, it's arguably single most valuable safety feature to avoid losing control of the vehicle.

I also guess one should think twice before making modifications to aerodynamics and suspension of the car with respect to potential compromises at high speeds. Has anyone experienced positive/negative effect of lower springs at high speeds?

I believe testing of stock cars at high speeds was shown in this video.
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      09-26-2012, 11:24 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgarvish
Oil pump issue leading to catastrophic engine failure... Been 9 instances of this worldwide already with the M5.
John
I'm curious where you got that info. I'm aware of one other but knew there had to be more. Do you know anything about who it affected and if they were driving or on start up like the other one I know about?
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      09-26-2012, 11:37 AM   #14
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I just drove a broken in F10 M5 in Munich a few weeks ago. Did my vmax at a bit over 280kph. Car was rock solid and gets there amazingly quickley. Road was clear and dry. No comparison in feel to my modded E39 m5 with 625+bhp at speed. Done 150mph a few times in my. current beast however driving these speeds on public roads is risky and dangerous due to the variables around you and not the car (assuming you have the correctly rated tires) in my opinion.
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      09-26-2012, 09:53 PM   #15
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I can tell you the Viper are one of the most unsave car ever built. There is no ABS or traction control on that car.
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      09-26-2012, 11:40 PM   #16
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9 incidents worldwide

I got the information that there have been 9 failures worldwide from Fran Kirnum at BMW NA in NJ. I have her email if anyone wants to ask her more questions about this. When I heard there were 8 incidents before Barry's catastrophic engine failure I thought . . . why did it take BMW 8 other incidents plus a 9th incident before they did anything about this. Could have seriously injured someone... Given this history, BMW can hardly claim that they didn't have indication of this serious issue prior to selling me my car.
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      09-27-2012, 01:26 AM   #17
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+1 and I thought I was the first...
I wonder where and when the others occurred?
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      09-27-2012, 04:17 AM   #18
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First of all don't race other cars at high speeds on public roads. The other driver may become an influential factor. With all that power even your own car could start to slide at WOT on a clean, dry road.
Only do high speed runs on deserted two lane Autobahns or at least three lanes of which two completely empty. Keep all the safety gadgets switched on. Obviously your car needs to be in mint, technical condition. Don't drive too long at very high speeds, you become accustomed to it and another car or an exit come close way too soon.

You have then eliminated the obvious risks you can control. But it will never be really safe. As long as you slide it is ok, but as soon as you hit something it's lights out.
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      09-27-2012, 02:35 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by singularity View Post
The question is: What can make our M5 F10 lose control at such high speeds if the road is straight and dry (wind, tire issues, jammed brakes)?
What about avoiding a stranded car (or anything really) in the left lane at 200+ km/h?
It happens all the time.

Most driver have never practiced a full emergency stop. Not even at 50 km/h.
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      09-27-2012, 04:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
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+1 and I thought I was the first...
I wonder where and when the others occurred?
I agree...seeing that there was not a peep on the boards about this...
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      09-27-2012, 04:07 PM   #21
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Spoke to BMW NA today and even Fran was very vague about this although possibly true, she would not confirm......
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      09-27-2012, 04:30 PM   #22
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Gag order from the other owners?
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