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      12-14-2012, 12:10 AM   #1
Munit
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e60 M5 to F10 M5 owners speak up

So I owned a e60 m5 and now an e92 m3 and I absolutely love the entire package that each of these cars brought. It brought me as close to driving a race car around the city as possible and a large part of the aural experience was the brutal gear shifts, the engine screaming to 8400 and simply knowing there was a one of a kind engine in the car that was as close to a race engine as there is aside from a ferrari.

I totally get the e60 is slower in ever measure but for me, the driving experience on a daily basis was way more than the acceleration but much more enjoyable to me was going through a tunnel and hearing the v10 or v8 scream at 8400 with a raspy high pitched race sound (always went catless). The hard shifts of the smg or the dct that just slams the gear home and just the nimbleness of both the e60 and the e92.

It just was a perfect experience and I am wondering if anyone who enjoyed some of those same things is disapointed after buying an f10? Specifically the size, softness of the tranny shifts, lack of screaming engine, lack of high revving engine etc etc
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      12-14-2012, 12:26 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
So I owned a e60 m5 and now an e92 m3 and I absolutely love the entire package that each of these cars brought. It brought me as close to driving a race car around the city as possible and a large part of the aural experience was the brutal gear shifts, the engine screaming to 8400 and simply knowing there was a one of a kind engine in the car that was as close to a race engine as there is aside from a ferrari.

I totally get the e60 is slower in ever measure but for me, the driving experience on a daily basis was way more than the acceleration but much more enjoyable to me was going through a tunnel and hearing the v10 or v8 scream at 8400 with a raspy high pitched race sound (always went catless). The hard shifts of the smg or the dct that just slams the gear home and just the nimbleness of both the e60 and the e92.

It just was a perfect experience and I am wondering if anyone who enjoyed some of those same things is disapointed after buying an f10? Specifically the size, softness of the tranny shifts, lack of screaming engine, lack of high revving engine etc etc
TWO WORDS and that is Hell nooo, I had a modded m3 before this and theirs no comparison. The only thing I miss is the exhaust and the only reason for that is because it was so loud LOL. (It had a full exhaust system) Nothing a meisterschaft can't fix. Theres a reason why they call it the "Beast''.
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      12-14-2012, 12:32 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
So I owned a e60 m5 and now an e92 m3 and I absolutely love the entire package that each of these cars brought. It brought me as close to driving a race car around the city as possible and a large part of the aural experience was the brutal gear shifts, the engine screaming to 8400 and simply knowing there was a one of a kind engine in the car that was as close to a race engine as there is aside from a ferrari.

I totally get the e60 is slower in ever measure but for me, the driving experience on a daily basis was way more than the acceleration but much more enjoyable to me was going through a tunnel and hearing the v10 or v8 scream at 8400 with a raspy high pitched race sound (always went catless). The hard shifts of the smg or the dct that just slams the gear home and just the nimbleness of both the e60 and the e92.

It just was a perfect experience and I am wondering if anyone who enjoyed some of those same things is disapointed after buying an f10? Specifically the size, softness of the tranny shifts, lack of screaming engine, lack of high revving engine etc etc
Unfortunately I am. Here's my summary after 12000 km and comparison to E60

Pros:
Acceleration is faster
Gear shifts are faster
Exhaust sounds better, not louder
Looks better

Cons:
Steering is too smooth, not sharp enough. My hydraulic pump failed during first slalom on snow
Throttle is not responsive enough for controlled oversteering or drifts
Brakes overheat after a few minutes of heavy application

Screaming engine - I don't miss the high pitch drama from S85 V10. The car is forcing me to accept that it's a classy fast sedan for occasional spirited driving, but in no way intended for any heavy track duty. I don't know where all those reviews on sexy tracks come from, I guess those test cars had many issues after those tests. Maybe others can share their experience on this.
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      12-14-2012, 12:38 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
So I owned a e60 m5 and now an e92 m3 and I absolutely love the entire package that each of these cars brought. It brought me as close to driving a race car around the city as possible and a large part of the aural experience was the brutal gear shifts, the engine screaming to 8400 and simply knowing there was a one of a kind engine in the car that was as close to a race engine as there is aside from a ferrari.

I totally get the e60 is slower in ever measure but for me, the driving experience on a daily basis was way more than the acceleration but much more enjoyable to me was going through a tunnel and hearing the v10 or v8 scream at 8400 with a raspy high pitched race sound (always went catless). The hard shifts of the smg or the dct that just slams the gear home and just the nimbleness of both the e60 and the e92.

It just was a perfect experience and I am wondering if anyone who enjoyed some of those same things is disapointed after buying an f10? Specifically the size, softness of the tranny shifts, lack of screaming engine, lack of high revving engine etc etc
Not at all dissapointed.. I owned a 2008 E60 and now a 2013 F10. Both cars are terrific, but the DCT in the new F10 is spectacular. Hands down this transmission makes the everyday driving experience better for me. I enjoy the sounds of the TT V8 with its' waste gates and the F1 burbling sounds as it shifts smoothly. I did enjoy the V10 but this new car is so much more advanced and luxurious that it's hard to look back.
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      12-14-2012, 01:37 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
So I owned a e60 m5 and now an e92 m3 and I absolutely love the entire package that each of these cars brought. It brought me as close to driving a race car around the city as possible and a large part of the aural experience was the brutal gear shifts, the engine screaming to 8400 and simply knowing there was a one of a kind engine in the car that was as close to a race engine as there is aside from a ferrari.

I totally get the e60 is slower in ever measure but for me, the driving experience on a daily basis was way more than the acceleration but much more enjoyable to me was going through a tunnel and hearing the v10 or v8 scream at 8400 with a raspy high pitched race sound (always went catless). The hard shifts of the smg or the dct that just slams the gear home and just the nimbleness of both the e60 and the e92.

It just was a perfect experience and I am wondering if anyone who enjoyed some of those same things is disapointed after buying an f10? Specifically the size, softness of the tranny shifts, lack of screaming engine, lack of high revving engine etc etc
Like u, i am a very huge fan of the screaming V8 in the M3. That's the reason why i kept the M3 even after getting the F10 M5. The M3 offers me what the M5 doesn't, namely:

- a sharper and more feelsome steering
- glorious high revving V8
- induction note
- easier to manoeuvre in tight spaces

The M5 is not a do it all car. It's a car u get if u want something more executive, yet with some fun. It goes like a bat out of hell though and would rape the M3 all day long in the straights. If there is one thing i have to name that disappoints me in the M5, it has to be the steering. It should have provided much more feedback and be sharper.
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      12-14-2012, 02:57 AM   #6
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Always best to just test it out yourself.
If you don't like the new one, you can always go back to the E60 M5.
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      12-16-2012, 02:54 PM   #7
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Had a E60 until recently and will get my new F10 in April. Will be keeping my M6 cab in Arizona so will be able to compare directly. I suspect I will enjoy them all to various degrees. Life moves on.
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      12-16-2012, 04:21 PM   #8
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I had to say for me the E60 M5 was my least favorite M car and I've had quite a few including an E36 M3 LTW, E46 M3 coupe with SMG, E39 M5 (very modded), and now the F10 and E93 M3.

I really didn't think the E60 screamed until you put an eisenmann race on it. It doesn't scream like a Gallardo.

The cruising range was horrific and when you're on it, it was horrible. (3mpg on the track at Laguna Seca and Thunderhill) which equated to less than 70 miles before it would cut out on places such as turn 5 and 8 at thunderhill. I literally got gas every 2 20 min sessions. The SMG went out 3 times on mine, burnt a quart of oil every 250 miles. (broken in as recommended). After 9 months of ownership, BMW bought it back since they couldn't figure out what was wrong with the transmission. Driving a race car on the street is overrated. It wasn't torquey and needed to be revved to get anything. The M3 is better in that regards.

With that said, 500+ miles of Autobahn and Autostrada and mountain run up Alto Adige in Northern Italy from Euro Delivery and the F10 is a far superior car in my opinion. Tons of everyday useable power/torque without hitting the 500HP button, big fuel tank, much better brakes, and better gas mileage. Looking forward to my 1st track day in the new daily driver.
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      12-16-2012, 04:26 PM   #9
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Previously owned an '09 E60. Like others stated this car is night and day different. All good IMHO. I am just getting around to really trusting the car in high(er) speed situations that arise in daily driving, namely on/off ramps. This is where i used to drive the E60 hard and it was very good. Not saying the F10 is bad, but I'd say steering is not "scalpel" sharp. Disappointed? Hell no! Engine, trans, brakes, exhaust - all much better.

Compared to a M3? Totally different car.
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      12-16-2012, 04:51 PM   #10
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We should make a compilation of these reviews and send them to all the magazine reviews that bashed the car after 20 mins of driving and have them print that.... I gave a friend of mine a ride yesterday that has a stage 3 supercharged E90 m3 and he almost shit his pants in the back seat lol. Akash, sorry if you're reading this. He is sold on it, making strides to reverting back to stock and hooked him up with our golden sales man from Atlanta.... most of you know who i'm talking about! lol. BTW, the other passenger in the car just got out of an E92 m3 -> GTR -> range rover HSE and is now contemplating getting F10 Beast after ride yesterday and had nothing but good things to say about the ride and refinement of the M5.... said the GTR has nothing on the M5 but awd feature.
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      12-16-2012, 05:15 PM   #11
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Brakes overheat after a few minutes of heavy application
I did a day at Laguna, pushing the car pretty hard (1:46-ish laps if I recall correctly) and did not notice any brake fade. For sure the brakes sounded like "snap, crackle and pop" after each session, but I just did a few minutes of cool down in the paddock and have not noticed any consequences (brakes squeal a bit, but they did before also).

Anyway, I agree that this is not a track car, but it gets around the track OK in my experience.

On exhaust, I think they are different (E60 screams, F10 Rumbles), but both sound great. I had Dinan exhaust on E60 (pretty mild) and it sounds great racing to redline, but it was pretty obnoxious.

Bottom line for me is that, versus the E60, the car is a step farther away from a true dual-purpose track/street car, but the everyday drivability (Especially around town) is just in a different league. The E60/SMG was a compromised solution that worked best on track. The F10/DCT is just better at everything and is able to drive like a grown up sedan in everyday scenarios....
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      12-16-2012, 05:20 PM   #12
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Great posts. Looks like everyone did not really give the old M a second thought. As one person elluded to, I was thinking about keeping the m3 I have and getting the f10 M5 but in the end it sounds like once you move up in technology, acceleration, refinement etc etc, there would be little draw to ever drive the m3 (unless a track which I may do).

This is the first m3/m5 combo that does make sense to own together IMO. An 8500 rpm screaming v8 and a torque monster TT v8. Different power delivery. Never understood owning an e60 m5 and e90 m3. Much too similar but this actually makes some sense here.
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      12-16-2012, 05:21 PM   #13
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Looking forward to my 1st track day in the new daily driver.
Just curious, since you have an awesome stable... if this is going to be your DD, where are you doing with you 550? Not sure if I have seen a post from you talking of why you decided to stay within the body style but go to the M. I remember reading many of you post with interest when you got your 5-series... Just would be interested in your thoughts between the two.
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      12-16-2012, 05:37 PM   #14
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Just curious, since you have an awesome stable... if this is going to be your DD, where are you doing with you 550? Not sure if I have seen a post from you talking of why you decided to stay within the body style but go to the M. I remember reading many of you post with interest when you got your 5-series... Just would be interested in your thoughts between the two.
my friend is buying my 550i. The intention was always to go with the M when it came out. Outside of the overly soft suspension and the poor tires that came with the M sport package, I loved the 550i. It is very well put together, reliable, very fast modded and served well as a family car. 30,000+ trouble free miles in 2 years. I enjoyed the 550i very much.
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      12-16-2012, 05:39 PM   #15
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I do miss my E39 M5. It was a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
Great posts. Looks like everyone did not really give the old M a second thought. As one person elluded to, I was thinking about keeping the m3 I have and getting the f10 M5 but in the end it sounds like once you move up in technology, acceleration, refinement etc etc, there would be little draw to ever drive the m3 (unless a track which I may do).

This is the first m3/m5 combo that does make sense to own together IMO. An 8500 rpm screaming v8 and a torque monster TT v8. Different power delivery. Never understood owning an e60 m5 and e90 m3. Much too similar but this actually makes some sense here.
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      12-17-2012, 11:55 AM   #16
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I have driven my friends M6 with the V10 and SMG. It is really a nice car but you need to wind it out. Really lacking in torque for such a heavy car. It sounds very good imo. I kept my E90 M3 6 speed when I bought the F10 M5. For a daily driver you can't beat the new M5. The NA V8 in the M3 is amazing though. I am definitely keeping the V8 M3.
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      12-17-2012, 12:16 PM   #17
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I do miss some aspects of my e60. It had more drama. It was more playful. I spun it sideways all the time and it made me laugh. It felt more connected. It was far more raw (good and bad).

The f10, on the other hand, demands respect. It's a brute and it means business. This thing scares me at times. It's much much faster. It actually deserves the title Beast more than the e60 did.

It's all been said before. The refinement, tech, ride and versatility of the f10 dwarf the capabilities of the e60, and I couldn't possibly go back... BUT... With the e60 I never thought about owning a second car explicitly for sporty driving. I definitely do want a smaller companion for the f10.
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      12-17-2012, 12:34 PM   #18
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I wrote this for my E60 M5 friends.

Quote:
I digress, having owned my F10 M5 now for a few months and doing European Delivery with it in Europe I will openly say that without doubt I do miss my E60 M5. I am posting this even after I have explored the F10 M5 greatly in its ability and performance over these past few months. You can read my review and watch my movies and videos in the links in my signature to get a sense of my adventures so far with the F10.

There are 3 main areas that I miss about the E60 M5 which stand out the most from the F10 M5.

- V10 Sound with aftermarket exhaust
- Smaller size of the E60
- Lighter weight of the E60

Other little things:
- Adjustable Side Bolsters
- Active Side Bolsters
- Styling cues of the E60 (like the headlights)

The first one, I knew immediately I would miss it the day that I dismantled my RPi Headers and RPi GT Exhaust from the E60 M5, however there is no doubt in my mind that the stock exhaust on the F10 M5 sounds way better than the stock exhaust on the E60 M5. It's the aftermarket exhausts on the E60 M5 that really does it for me, there is no better mod for any other car in the world in my opinion. The other two didn't hit me until after I got my F10 M5 back from Euro Delivery and started to drive it on a daily basis and push it on canyon roads. Both inside and outside of the F10 M5, I do feel like it's just over the line of the size of car that is too big for me. Sometimes I feel like I'm walking up to a 7-Series, and other times I feel like I'm driving a 7-Series especially when trying to park in a parking lot. Even the size of the door handles on the F10 seems too big for my hand. I guess part of the problem is that I'm still a single dude with no wife and no kids, and I don't need the extra room that the F10 offers over the E60. It's kind of like the Goldilocks pouridge paradox, the E90 M3 is too small for me, the F10 M5 is too big for me, and the E60 M5 is juuuuuuust right! Lol! I will say because of the greater and greater sizes of new BMW's nowadays, I am highly interested to see what comes of the 2016 (F84) M4 Gran Coupe. That car should be just a smidge smaller than an E60 chassis. The F30 chassis size is already pretty close to an E60.

Stock for stock the F10 M5's suspension set up is superior. It definitely has less body roll with EDC on sport+ than the E60 M5's on sport+. However, with springs and swaybars I will say that the E60 M5's handling is damn good compared to a stock F10 M5. I will be getting some springs put on the F10 and will be able to offer more of a comparison soon. I just remember how good a modified suspension on an E60 M5 handled, although by doing so it was definitely pretty bad for daily driving, too stiff. As for the weight, I feel like you can feel the E60 M5's weight more when pushing the car's handling ability to the limit, because the chassis engineering is inferior to the F10's. I remember several times being able to really feel the full weight of the E60 through the steering wheel when coming into a turn at a fast speed. On the F10 the chassis design and engineering feels light years ahead in that it does such an incredible job of hiding the weight of the F10 M5's ~4,300 lbs. You really become aware of the F10's weight only when making it do things a 4,300lbs car shouldn't be able to do. The weight of the F10 is noticable though, and in the end I'd rather have a lighter car, but the F10 M5 chassis engineering still baffles me and always will.

A good example of this was a couple of weekends ago when I was doing something foolish with the F10 M5 trying to push it to its limits to see what it could do. It was a rainy night here in San Diego and I was cruising on the highway. I had to get off one highway and merge onto another, but the merge was a piece of road I was highly familiar with and have taken that turn at 130+ speeds many times before. This time it was raining though (which it almost never rains in San Diego) and the roads were a little slick. Feeling adventurous, I pushed the F10's speed up to around 130 getting ready to enter the merge (no cars around me by the way). Well it was entirely way to fast for the wet pavement and the M5 lost control. The DSC was fully ON thank god, and I tapped the brakes a little and then let off, the M5 rear tires broke traction, but the car recovered quickly and with such finesse I almost couldn't believe that I didn't lose complete control and crash. The chassis felt so stable and my steering never felt out of control. It's very hard to describe. I just felt so incredibly in control even though I realized that the M5 was out of control. If I was in the E60 M5, I think it would have been a different story.

I will say the things that I definitely do not miss from the E60 M5 are the small fuel tank, terrible gas mileage, and uncertain reliability. The range of the F10 M5 is heavenly. I can easily get a minimum of 425 miles on a single tank of gas and so far I have gotten as much as 465 miles. The highest mpg I've seen on the highway is about 26-27mpg in the F10. As many of you know we had a meet and canyon run in honor of "Sir" ACG last weekend. In a single day of running with about 20 E60 M5's, 5 E39 M5's, and 3 F10 M5's, 2 of the E60 M5's broke down, and one got a flat tire. Sounded like one had a vanos issue and another had an SMG issue. Seeing those E60's break down gave me a good feeling that I don't have to worry about that anymore. The prospect of the E60 M5 about to break always gave me stress. I've been quite lucky so far with my F10 M5 though, I have almost 4,000 miles on it and not a single problem, and my car was one of the ones affected by the oil pump recall. She performed marvelously on the Nurburgring by the way.

The most important point though is the missing sound from the S85 V10 engine with an aftermarket exhaust. I already have a Full RPi GT exhaust on my F10 M5 and although it does sound better, there's still just no comparison. One of the things that I miss most from the E60 is that first start up of the engine. I always felt like I was starting up a race car when ever I cranked up the V10. The entire car would shake and vibrate at idle. I LOVED that. I always felt like something special was going to happen every time I left my garage. In the F10 M5 with an RPi exhaust, the cold start sounds really good, but it lacks that F1 race car feeling. The E60's V10 is like dating that hot girl who takes you for granted, makes you buy her stuff all the time, the sex is mindblowing and she screams too loud during the act , mother never approved of her, and she got too drunk at your wedding and made out with the best man. The F10's S63tu's V8 is more like dating that girl next door that everyone in the neighborhood thinks is a nice girl, she goes to church, but has a secret life as a stipper, and is a freak in bed and will do things to you that you never thought were possible. Lol! Sorry if there are any ladies in the audience.

The E60 M5 may not be the fastest car because of turbo techonology in today's new cars, but it sure is one of the most fun cars I have ever driven, if not the most fun, and I miss that despite the bad gas mileage and poor reliability. Last night I took a girl on a date and I was driving her home in the F10 and she wanted me to push it a little. So one thing that I like to do with all of the torque from the S63tu is slowly and gradually depress the throttle all the way to full throttle, letting the torque build and build until it feels insane. It seems like the torque and the force you get is almost never ending and so powerful with this engine. The girl I was on a date with, said "whew, I didn't expect that," and I LOL'd.

I think ownership of an M5 is about the feeling you get when you drive it and look at it. Let me put it this way, I LOVED my E60 M5 with all of the mods even though it wasn't the fastest thing out there, but still plenty fast. Where as my love for the F10 M5 is still growing on me and to be honest isn't anywhere close to the LOVE I had for the E60 M5 yet. The things that I love the most about the F10 M5 are the torque, the DCT (although I loved the SMG and think it will always be the more exciting transmission), the Bang & Olufsen sound system, the new iDrive system, and the reliability so far. I almost feel like my LOVE for the V10 engine trumps all of these things from the F10 M5, almost.

So in conclusion, my honest feeling is that F10 M5 isn't the better car, it's just different, even though it does many many things better than the E60 M5. I don't feel like the E60 M5 is an inferior car at all because the F10 is here now. Truth be told, I want my E60 M5 back, but I still want to keep my F10 as well. Lol! So I have decided to start saving my pennies because one day I am going to re-aquire an E60 M5 and rebuild it into an RPi Stage 2 or even Stage 3 with a Supercharger. I'll probably opt for a 6spd manual E60 M5 next time around though, in order to avoid any SMG problems.

I am telling you that if you own an E60 M5 today, then hold on to it, take care of it, and love it. There aren't many cars out there with a V10 anymore and I can't see any other new cars being built in the future with naturally aspirated V10's. Well, besides the new Dodge Viper and the continuing production of the Lamborghini Gallardo. I also see that the prices of E60 M5's have dropped considerably this year. I personally think that these cars are under valued due to their exlusivity by having a V10, but at the same time I understand their devaluation due to the reliability, high maintenance issues, as well as the F10's being on showroom floors now. In any case, as an F10 M5 owner I am still jealous of anyone that own's an E60 M5 today and in the future, and one day I will be back.

Cheers,
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      12-17-2012, 02:45 PM   #19
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I wrote this for my E60 M5 friends.
Read every page, well written. I've never owned the E60 but I want one in the future. The engine dominated that whole car, F10 tries to balance its components. Would be a nice pairing in my garage with my little 1
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      12-18-2012, 01:56 AM   #20
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Very valid and inspirational post RPiM5 enjoyed it like reading a book
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      12-18-2012, 08:44 AM   #21
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I do miss some aspects of my e60. It had more drama. It was more playful. I spun it sideways all the time and it made me laugh. It felt more connected. It was far more raw (good and bad).

The f10, on the other hand, demands respect. It's a brute and it means business. This thing scares me at times. It's much much faster. It actually deserves the title Beast more than the e60 did.

It's all been said before. The refinement, tech, ride and versatility of the f10 dwarf the capabilities of the e60, and I couldn't possibly go back... BUT... With the e60 I never thought about owning a second car explicitly for sporty driving. I definitely do want a smaller companion for the f10.
Could not have said it better myself. If it was not for SMG I might have kept the V10 forever - I found that in city driving the e60 was just out of place, especially the transmission. The F10 is a better all around car but gives up some of that raw, race, handling feel that previous M5s prioritized.
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      12-18-2012, 08:50 AM   #22
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Very valid and inspirational post RPiM5 enjoyed it like reading a book
+1, great with my morning coffee beforing starting the day
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