M5POST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   M5POST - BMW M5 Forum > F10 M5 Forum > BMW M5 (F10) General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-08-2013, 04:10 PM   #1
catpat8000
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: my wife and kids crazy
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: California

Posts: 383
iTrader: (0)

Three ways the German automakers are ripping us off

I've been looking at an M5, a M6 GC, an E63 and the CLS63. I'm seeking a 4 door sedan which will dust 911s and Corvettes without much effort and which will carry me around in relative luxury. I'm looking in the $100-110K range (so the M6 is not really an option).

Currently I drive an M3 which I love so I'm slightly predisposed to BMW but I need something bigger (objectively true) and something faster (emotionally true). In looking around, I'm getting rather annoyed at what I'm seeing with Mercedes and BMW. They are ripping us off!

How? Here are three examples each company has embraced.

(1) Extra charges for a "performance pack". MB offers the sAMG package and BMW offers the ZCP option. With BMW, this amounts to a few hundred dollars in new hardware, different (not better wheels), and a SW change. Cost? Over 7 grand. MB has a similar deal going. Come on. 7 grand for sw, cast wheels, some different bushings, and a different anti-sway bar? Rip off.

(2) Extra charges for paint colors. The "individual" options for paint are such a ridiculous rip off I can't believe it. The companies offer a lame selection of colors and then charge a pantload of money for additional colors?

(3) Extra charges for non balck and white interiors. Same comments as above - offer a limited selection of interior colors then a giant extra charge for additional colors. Come on - merely offering a slightly wider selection of colors would cost the company almost nothing yet we're paying $5K for this option.

I know, I know, if I don't like it don't buy. But doesn't this bother anyone else? They are basically sitting around asking each other how they can get another few thousand out of each sale and they aren't offering anything of inherent value for it.

Pat
catpat8000 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 04:14 PM   #2
Neil McRae
BMW Motorsport
 
Neil McRae's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW ///M3 E92 / BMW ///M5 F10
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London

Posts: 1,744
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2012 BMW M5  [5.00]
2010 BMW M3 Coupe  [5.00]
Send a message via MSN to Neil McRae
Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
I've been looking at an M5, a M6 GC, an E63 and the CLS63. I'm seeking a 4 door sedan which will dust 911s and Corvettes without much effort and which will carry me around in relative luxury. I'm looking in the $100-110K range (so the M6 is not really an option).

Currently I drive an M3 which I love so I'm slightly predisposed to BMW but I need something bigger (objectively true) and something faster (emotionally true). In looking around, I'm getting rather annoyed at what I'm seeing with Mercedes and BMW. They are ripping us off!

How? Here are three examples each company has embraced.

(1) Extra charges for a "performance pack". MB offers the sAMG package and BMW offers the ZCP option. With BMW, this amounts to a few hundred dollars in new hardware, different (not better wheels), and a SW change. Cost? Over 7 grand. MB has a similar deal going. Come on. 7 grand for sw, cast wheels, some different bushings, and a different anti-sway bar? Rip off.

(2) Extra charges for paint colors. The "individual" options for paint are such a ridiculous rip off I can't believe it. The companies offer a lame selection of colors and then charge a pantload of money for additional colors?

(3) Extra charges for non balck and white interiors. Same comments as above - offer a limited selection of interior colors then a giant extra charge for additional colors. Come on - merely offering a slightly wider selection of colors would cost the company almost nothing yet we're paying $5K for this option.

I know, I know, if I don't like it don't buy. But doesn't this bother anyone else? They are basically sitting around asking each other how they can get another few thousand out of each sale and they aren't offering anything of inherent value for it.

Pat
all car makers do it dood - and the world still rotates.German guys seem to make money to invest in better cars - I like this.
__________________
--
Neil J. ///McRae -- Alive and Kicking -- neil at DOMINO.ORG ///M5 ARMY
M3 DCT Alpine White -- M5 DCT Alpine White -- M135i Alpine White -- M4 DCT Alpine White on order!
Neil McRae is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 04:25 PM   #3
kylek13
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2013 BMW M5 Frozen Grey
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Indy

Posts: 196
iTrader: (1)

I think you are pointing out why these companies are self sufficient and turn a profit. No bailouts in Germany needed It kinda feels like they nickel and dime you, I still think the M5 is the best bang for your buck unless you want a Corvette or something.
kylek13 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 04:33 PM   #4
Boss330
Colonel
 
Boss330's Avatar
 
Drives: F10 ACS5 3.0i
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Europe

Posts: 2,210
iTrader: (0)

You'll see the same in every line of business.

Clothing/fashion. Most high end brands are no more expensive to manufacture than cheaper brands. But customers are willing to pay for exclusivity and brand name.

Auto parts. Parts are made by the same sub supplier but labeled and packed differently. Sold as a brand name part it's expensive, sold as a cheap brand it's cheap. But often the exact same part, manufactured at the same factory...

It's part of the free economy and free market. The opposite would be a controlled market as per Soviet union where the government decides what a car etc should cost... A private company has an obligation to it's shareholders to make the highest profit possible. Margins are much higher on a high end product because the buyer can afford to pay more. On a 1-series there would be far less buyers that could afford such a high premium.

I'd rather have a solid economy BMW making a profit each year, than a BMW that just barely makes it or needs government funds...
Boss330 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 04:38 PM   #5
chong0
Private First Class
 
Drives: '13 M5 Space Gray/Sakhir
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: MA

Posts: 195
iTrader: (0)

I think you make a good point- ZCP seems to be the norm with BMW now and you have to wonder why didn't they make the car with ZCP as standard when it first launched?

As consumers, we should embrace competition. A panny turbo can do the ring faster than a stock M5. Then ZCP comes out and now BMW can match the ring time, but the costs get pushed to the consumer instead of changing the base M5 (and not to mention the +2k price increase for 2014 US models).

Though a 1st world problem, it is extremely frustrating. Look on the bright side- the US consumer has a nice discount in comparison to the rest of the world.
__________________

--------
'13 M5
'12 Cayenne 6MT
'09 328xiT 6MT
chong0 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 04:40 PM   #6
catpat8000
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: my wife and kids crazy
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: California

Posts: 383
iTrader: (0)

Yes, you guys are all right. They do this because we pay for it and if there was a viable competitor who didn't do it and put the hurt to them, they would respond. But there isn't so they don't.

I'm just irritated by the fact that if I want ZCP and an interesting color on the inside and outside, that adds 15 grand to the price of the car.

Pat
catpat8000 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 05:05 PM   #7
RidgeRacer
New Member
 
Drives: BMW Individual
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: USA

Posts: 17
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
Yes, you guys are all right. They do this because we pay for it and if there was a viable competitor who didn't do it and put the hurt to them, they would respond. But there isn't so they don't.

I'm just irritated by the fact that if I want ZCP and an interesting color on the inside and outside, that adds 15 grand to the price of the car.

Pat
If it pisses you off, give your money to someone else: Lexus GSF is coming.

Picture of the test mule at the Nurburgring

RidgeRacer is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 05:19 PM   #8
skypx
Veteran U.S. Army
 
skypx's Avatar
 
Drives: ///M
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA

Posts: 556
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylek13 View Post
I think you are pointing out why these companies are self sufficient and turn a profit. No bailouts in Germany needed It kinda feels like they nickel and dime you, I still think the M5 is the best bang for your buck......
+1 One of the reason why I won't get a p-car. I love the tech and performance but not the price.
skypx is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 05:32 PM   #9
M3PGH
Lieutenant
 
Drives: M5
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh,PA

Posts: 476
iTrader: (0)

things look different depending on the angle you look at them. When I bought my M5 at 94k MSRP, I felt it was pricey, then I test drove a Panamera turbo that was priced at 150k . Panamera has some features slightly better than M5, but other features that were worse. I looked back at my M5 and I felt it is a bargain. Though overall, cars are getting expensive for most people, and this is why you see huge depreciation on most cars priced above a certain level
M3PGH is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 05:35 PM   #10
Aussie F10M
Captain
 
Aussie F10M's Avatar
 
Drives: F10 M5
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia

Posts: 604
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidgeRacer View Post
If it pisses you off, give your money to someone else: Lexus GSF is coming.

Picture of the test mule at the Nurburgring

That is an extremely poor fitting right hand side exhaust, even for a mule.
__________________
Current: Singapore Gray 2012 M5
Aussie F10M is offline   Australia
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 05:35 PM   #11
mstmng
Major
 
Drives: M5 '12 Silverstone/Black
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: London

Posts: 1,062
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by skypx View Post
+1 One of the reason why I won't get a p-car. I love the tech and performance but not the price.
customazitation of P-car interior can add 50% to the base car price EASY!
__________________
M5 F10 '12 SS/Black, catless resonated RPi GTM
M3 E90 DCT '08 Jerez/Ext Bamboo Beige, E-Race GONE
mstmng is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 05:54 PM   #12
v12
 
v12's Avatar
 
Drives: F10
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Manhattan

Posts: 591
iTrader: (0)

Every time I shop for a car, I start with a clean slate and an open mind. I always end-up with german and it's either a BMW or a P car.

Anyone looked at prices for a spec'ed car now vs. just 3 years ago on some BMW models?
v12 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 05:59 PM   #13
RPiM5
Brigadier General
 
RPiM5's Avatar
 
Drives: Riviera Blue F10 M5(Mika)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Washington, D.C.

Posts: 3,173
iTrader: (0)

Someone else already mentioned but I'll reiterate, you forgot about the $2,000 price increase as of October 1st.

50% of the cost of the ZCP is you being able to tell people that "your" M5 has 575hp as opposed to those poor people who can only afford the 560hp version. Lol!

Also if you actually analyzed the features of the ZCP, you'd realize it only costs 6k instead of 7.3k if you were gonna get the 20" wheels anyways. Less than 1% of F10 M5's sold have the 19" wheels on them. Lol!

But in some ways you are right OP. The swaybars cost no more than $400, the bushings maybe $100, the Springs, like $400, and the missing baffles in the exhaust and blacked out tips, prolly like $100 bucks. The 15hp increase in reality maybe like $500, and the steering improvements like a $1,000. The CP 601 wheels, would probably be a $1,300 dollar option like the 343M's if they were a stand alone option. Added up, in reality it prolly costs, $3,800 bucks for all the Comp Pack components, but they have to make a profit right? How else is Hans, who works on the M5 assembly line, gonna get paid? Lol!

Quit your complaining and just fork over your hard earned money. In the end you are getting what you paid for, a better product.

I can attest, by the fact that I have over 26,000 miles on my 2013 M5, that it does NOT NEED the Comp Pack, but if I wanted a slightly faster, slightly better sounding, and slightly better driving and handling M5, ON THE RACE TRACK, I would sell my left kidney to get the ZCP.
__________________
Once you go Piano Black, you always go back.
RPiM5 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 06:00 PM   #14
turbolag
is nonexistent with N/A
 
turbolag's Avatar
 
Drives: .
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: .

Posts: 1,117
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by v12 View Post
Every time I shop for a car, I start with a clean slate and an open mind. I always end-up with german and it's either a BMW or a P car.

Anyone looked at prices for a spec'ed car now vs. just 3 years ago on some BMW models?
Yes.

Once upon a time you could get a E90 M3, Novillo Leather/Metallic paint for 58k. Now? Ha, F30 335i M Sport with MPPK/Exhaust/Suspension is pushing 60k+.
turbolag is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 06:11 PM   #15
KoenG
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: E39 530i & F10 520d
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Europe

Posts: 316
iTrader: (0)

You're right, I also see this "skimming" technique. When I get a new 520d... the navigation is an expensive option while the display is in the dash, the controller is on the central console, the antenna is in the roof. It costs BMW nothing to get the nav-soft in, but they charge +2,5k$ to just activate the soft!

This is a common technique of markering boys to rip you off. Just get a standard metallic color, standard trim M5 and limit the extra expenses to what you really care for. Try to avoid to get seduced with individual colors and trims... it isn't worth it! The car remains exactly the same in black, white or champagne!

BTW, on the LCI none M, the front fog lights have become an option, while on pre-LCI they where standard trim. Just to seduce prospects to throw some extra money in the deal...
KoenG is offline   Belgium
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 06:28 PM   #16
Rob///M5
Major
 
Rob///M5's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 M5 SSII
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Diego

Posts: 1,342
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2013 BMW M5  [5.00]
Buy a lightly used F10 M5 for a ridiculously good price
__________________
Rob///M5 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 08:00 PM   #17
Bimmer6
Captain
 
Bimmer6's Avatar
 
Drives: Porsche 991S/F10 M5
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: ATL

Posts: 951
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
I've been looking at an M5, a M6 GC, an E63 and the CLS63. I'm seeking a 4 door sedan which will dust 911s and Corvettes without much effort and which will carry me around in relative luxury. I'm looking in the $100-110K range (so the M6 is not really an option).

Currently I drive an M3 which I love so I'm slightly predisposed to BMW but I need something bigger (objectively true) and something faster (emotionally true). In looking around, I'm getting rather annoyed at what I'm seeing with Mercedes and BMW. They are ripping us off!

How? Here are three examples each company has embraced.

(1) Extra charges for a "performance pack". MB offers the sAMG package and BMW offers the ZCP option. With BMW, this amounts to a few hundred dollars in new hardware, different (not better wheels), and a SW change. Cost? Over 7 grand. MB has a similar deal going. Come on. 7 grand for sw, cast wheels, some different bushings, and a different anti-sway bar? Rip off.

(2) Extra charges for paint colors. The "individual" options for paint are such a ridiculous rip off I can't believe it. The companies offer a lame selection of colors and then charge a pantload of money for additional colors?

(3) Extra charges for non balck and white interiors. Same comments as above - offer a limited selection of interior colors then a giant extra charge for additional colors. Come on - merely offering a slightly wider selection of colors would cost the company almost nothing yet we're paying $5K for this option.

I know, I know, if I don't like it don't buy. But doesn't this bother anyone else? They are basically sitting around asking each other how they can get another few thousand out of each sale and they aren't offering anything of inherent value for it.

Pat
Frankly- I think it's a perfect system because you can pick and choose the options you want. Clearly not all people what the same car, and choice pricing works for the buyer. When I purchased my M5 I only wanted the HUD, 20" wheels, full leather which made me a happy camper. When I purchased my 911, I didn't need to spend 10k in leather and got the car optioned the way I wanted.

We all like choices which happens will all manufactors, and the key with any business is to turn a profit. Hell I got my M5 less than ED invoice just play the game. Some get killed, and some get a great deal. Good luck with your choice. The key is never to buy a car for resale because it's not an investment bottom line.
Bimmer6 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 09:08 PM   #18
smashhell
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2011 535i
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posts: 460
iTrader: (0)

BMW is a business after all.
You could argue that ANY BMW is more of "want" than "need".
For that "want", you pay a premium.
__________________
2011 535i Alpine White, Oyster on black interior, Premium 1 & 2 Package, Magnaflow Full Cat-Back Exhaust, JB4 Stage 2
smashhell is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 09:13 PM   #19
smashhell
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2011 535i
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posts: 460
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob///M5
Buy a lightly used F10 M5 for a ridiculously good price
Slightly used M5 are going for 90% of MSRP.
If I'm buying a $85k+ used car, I'll pay $10k more for a new one. :/
__________________
2011 535i Alpine White, Oyster on black interior, Premium 1 & 2 Package, Magnaflow Full Cat-Back Exhaust, JB4 Stage 2
smashhell is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 09:19 PM   #20
savela
Private First Class
 
savela's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 M5
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: TX

Posts: 197
iTrader: (0)

Rip off? For a base of around $92k you get a car that does it all, and very well. Supply and demand is a beautiful thing. One is only ripped off if they unsuspectingly pay more for something or receive less than promised. BMW is pretty clear with their pricing and they more than deliver what they promise.

For $92k you get, performance-wise, about the same M5 you can buy for $115k. Even fully optioned, their brakes and the ZCP only add at the top end of performance, IMHO. Everything in between is luxury. One can spend that on a watch, a purse, a pair of earrings, a painting.....as long as one feels the got what they paid for, there is no rip off.

Ok, so a 2014 corvette is way more bang for the buck but I, for one, feel I got what I paid for....no rip off. I paid quite a bit for the leather on my dash and to be honest, would have paid more than what they charged me for it.
__________________
2014 ///M5
2011 550i (traded)
savela is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 09:39 PM   #21
catpat8000
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: my wife and kids crazy
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: California

Posts: 383
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by savela View Post
Rip off? For a base of around $92k you get a car that does it all, and very well. Supply and demand is a beautiful thing. One is only ripped off if they unsuspectingly pay more for something or receive less than promised. BMW is pretty clear with their pricing and they more than deliver what they promise.

For $92k you get, performance-wise, about the same M5 you can buy for $115k. Even fully optioned, their brakes and the ZCP only add at the top end of performance, IMHO. Everything in between is luxury. One can spend that on a watch, a purse, a pair of earrings, a painting.....as long as one feels the got what they paid for, there is no rip off.

Ok, so a 2014 corvette is way more bang for the buck but I, for one, feel I got what I paid for....no rip off. I paid quite a bit for the leather on my dash and to be honest, would have paid more than what they charged me for it.
It seems pretty clear you didn't even read my post. At no point did I say the M5 was a rip off. I don't even know why you went off in that direction.
catpat8000 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2013, 11:09 PM   #22
MSportDC
///MSport-DC
 
MSportDC's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 F10 M5, 2012 X5 35d
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wash. D.C.

Posts: 156
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2012 BMW X5 35d  [0.00]
In line with most of the arguments put forward, BMW's sales & marketing is doing their job of generating greater revenue and P/E to please their stakeholders. Can't blame them that they're doing a good job because it's working and people are still purchasing the cars albeit with the options.
__________________
2012 BMW X5 35d (Alpine white/Black - Loaded) - Delivery: 2012/9/17
2013 BMW M5 (Azurite black/Black full merino/Piano trim/20"/Exec./Driver Assist. - Delivery: 2012/11/16
MSportDC is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:34 PM.




m5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST