M5POST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   M5POST - BMW M5 Forum > F10 M5 Forum > Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain Modifications

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-13-2017, 12:04 AM   #1
LBBF87
New Member
LBBF87's Avatar
14
Rep
24
Posts

Drives: F87 M2 - F10 M5
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New Jersey

iTrader: (0)

BMS Stage 1 vs ESS Flash Tune (Claimed Gains)

I was doing a little research and I stumbled upon some dyno numbers.

I have read countless threads on this forum about ESS/BPM/DME and etc flash tunes "waking up" the car. According to ESS and their dyno results http://esstuning.com/s63tu-stage-1-p...-ecu-software/, a standard M6 with an exhaust put down 629hp/617 lb/ft. While these are respectable for sure, the following confused me.

According to an N54 Tech classified dyno http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1249137 - their Stage 1 car made 636hp/609 lb/ft.

I guess then my question is why do I feel as if my stage one hasn't "woken up" my car when it apparently is putting down similar if not higher numbers then a Stage 1 flash tune. Am I missing something? The dynos are the same DynoJet models..

Note: I am not trying to insult ESS or BMS in any way, just genuinely curious.
__________________
2014 F10 M5 - Space Grey on Sahkir Orange
2016 F48 X1 - Black on Black
2017 F87 M2 - LBB on Black
2018 LP 610-4 Blu Caelum Metallic on Nero Ade (Exp. Delivery 10/17)
Appreciate 0
      06-13-2017, 01:45 AM   #2
Northern X5M
Captain
Northern X5M's Avatar
Canada
56
Rep
771
Posts

Drives: 2014 Tanzanite Blue M5
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Those BMS stage 1 numbers are look like they are on kill setting. What do you have yours set at? My BMS stage 1 set to 3 was 6 MPH slower than the flash tune I am running now in the 1/4.
__________________
2014 ///M5 CP Tanzanite Blue/Cohiba - 11.15 @ 128.8 & 1.84 60' (2150' DA) - BPM Tune - MSR Intake - SSP DCT - SS DPs & HFC Mid Pipes/X-Over - E Race Muffs - 19" MT DRs
Appreciate 0
      06-13-2017, 07:02 AM   #3
13M5F10
Hide! My wife's coming!
13M5F10's Avatar
United_States
369
Rep
2,205
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5 | MSR Stage 3
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Las Colinas, TX

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBBF87 View Post
I was doing a little research and I stumbled upon some dyno numbers.

I have read countless threads on this forum about ESS/BPM/DME and etc flash tunes "waking up" the car. According to ESS and their dyno results http://esstuning.com/s63tu-stage-1-p...-ecu-software/, a standard M6 with an exhaust put down 629hp/617 lb/ft. While these are respectable for sure, the following confused me.

According to an N54 Tech classified dyno http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1249137 - their Stage 1 car made 636hp/609 lb/ft.

I guess then my question is why do I feel as if my stage one hasn't "woken up" my car when it apparently is putting down similar if not higher numbers then a Stage 1 flash tune. Am I missing something? The dynos are the same DynoJet models..

Note: I am not trying to insult ESS or BMS in any way, just genuinely curious.
When I had my Stage 1, I wouldn't say it woke up my car compared to a flash tune. The stage 1 was fun and the car pulled harder, but when I went flash, it was a night and day difference. The car felt like it was healthier, ran more efficiently, and car drove so much better in all RPM ranges.

Not to diss ESS, there are much better numbers out there with other tuners with stock downpipes.
__________________
2013 BMW M5 | Space Grey | MSR Stage 3 Tune | Catless Downpipes | MSR Intake and Charge Pipes | MSR Exhaust (Prototype) | Vorsteiner Rear Diffuser | RW Carbon Front Lip | RW Carbon Trunk Spoiler| Vorsteiner VS-310 Forged Wheels | Escort 9500CI w/Laser Jammers
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2017, 01:39 AM   #4
LBBF87
New Member
LBBF87's Avatar
14
Rep
24
Posts

Drives: F87 M2 - F10 M5
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13M5F10 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LBBF87 View Post
I was doing a little research and I stumbled upon some dyno numbers.

I have read countless threads on this forum about ESS/BPM/DME and etc flash tunes "waking up" the car. According to ESS and their dyno results http://esstuning.com/s63tu-stage-1-p...-ecu-software/, a standard M6 with an exhaust put down 629hp/617 lb/ft. While these are respectable for sure, the following confused me.

According to an N54 Tech classified dyno http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1249137 - their Stage 1 car made 636hp/609 lb/ft.

I guess then my question is why do I feel as if my stage one hasn't "woken up" my car when it apparently is putting down similar if not higher numbers then a Stage 1 flash tune. Am I missing something? The dynos are the same DynoJet models..

Note: I am not trying to insult ESS or BMS in any way, just genuinely curious.
When I had my Stage 1, I wouldn't say it woke up my car compared to a flash tune. The stage 1 was fun and the car pulled harder, but when I went flash, it was a night and day difference. The car felt like it was healthier, ran more efficiently, and car drove so much better in all RPM ranges.

Not to diss ESS, there are much better numbers out there with other tuners with stock downpipes.
So one could expect similar numbers to ESS with a Stage 1 BMS? What are alternative options that produce more power (safely)?
__________________
2014 F10 M5 - Space Grey on Sahkir Orange
2016 F48 X1 - Black on Black
2017 F87 M2 - LBB on Black
2018 LP 610-4 Blu Caelum Metallic on Nero Ade (Exp. Delivery 10/17)
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2017, 09:04 AM   #5
13M5F10
Hide! My wife's coming!
13M5F10's Avatar
United_States
369
Rep
2,205
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5 | MSR Stage 3
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Las Colinas, TX

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBBF87 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13M5F10 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LBBF87 View Post
I was doing a little research and I stumbled upon some dyno numbers.

I have read countless threads on this forum about ESS/BPM/DME and etc flash tunes "waking up" the car. According to ESS and their dyno results http://esstuning.com/s63tu-stage-1-p...-ecu-software/, a standard M6 with an exhaust put down 629hp/617 lb/ft. While these are respectable for sure, the following confused me.

According to an N54 Tech classified dyno http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1249137 - their Stage 1 car made 636hp/609 lb/ft.

I guess then my question is why do I feel as if my stage one hasn't "woken up" my car when it apparently is putting down similar if not higher numbers then a Stage 1 flash tune. Am I missing something? The dynos are the same DynoJet models..

Note: I am not trying to insult ESS or BMS in any way, just genuinely curious.
When I had my Stage 1, I wouldn't say it woke up my car compared to a flash tune. The stage 1 was fun and the car pulled harder, but when I went flash, it was a night and day difference. The car felt like it was healthier, ran more efficiently, and car drove so much better in all RPM ranges.

Not to diss ESS, there are much better numbers out there with other tuners with stock downpipes.
So one could expect similar numbers to ESS with a Stage 1 BMS? What are alternative options that produce more power (safely)?
Different tuner.
__________________
2013 BMW M5 | Space Grey | MSR Stage 3 Tune | Catless Downpipes | MSR Intake and Charge Pipes | MSR Exhaust (Prototype) | Vorsteiner Rear Diffuser | RW Carbon Front Lip | RW Carbon Trunk Spoiler| Vorsteiner VS-310 Forged Wheels | Escort 9500CI w/Laser Jammers
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2017, 05:28 PM   #6
LBBF87
New Member
LBBF87's Avatar
14
Rep
24
Posts

Drives: F87 M2 - F10 M5
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13M5F10 View Post
Different tuner.
Clearly. I was looking for more of a specific answer if possible?

(Insert Recommendation Here)
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2017, 05:43 PM   #7
13M5F10
Hide! My wife's coming!
13M5F10's Avatar
United_States
369
Rep
2,205
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5 | MSR Stage 3
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Las Colinas, TX

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBBF87 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13M5F10 View Post
Different tuner.
Clearly. I was looking for more of a specific answer if possible?

(Insert Recommendation Here)
I know it was vague. The forums are get touchy when it comes to tuners and intake recommendations lol . I know several with ESS tunes and aren't pushing numbers better than the stage1 and very depressing compared to what we are seeing from other tuners.

DME tuning is my #1 choice. BPM, HCP, and Mission are other forums choices. All have great reliable tunes, great numbers, excellent customer service and quality.

Any of these 4 tuners, you will experience a night and day diff over Piggy.
__________________
2013 BMW M5 | Space Grey | MSR Stage 3 Tune | Catless Downpipes | MSR Intake and Charge Pipes | MSR Exhaust (Prototype) | Vorsteiner Rear Diffuser | RW Carbon Front Lip | RW Carbon Trunk Spoiler| Vorsteiner VS-310 Forged Wheels | Escort 9500CI w/Laser Jammers
Appreciate 1
      06-15-2017, 07:40 PM   #8
TrevorM3
Brigadier General
599
Rep
4,596
Posts

Drives: 6.3 AMG
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (0)

You can't go wrong with a reputable tuner on here.

it's all basically the same. customer service is what will set them apart.
Appreciate 1
      06-15-2017, 08:27 PM   #9
LBBF87
New Member
LBBF87's Avatar
14
Rep
24
Posts

Drives: F87 M2 - F10 M5
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Cool. Thanks guys. I'll probably stick to stage 1 until my warranty is up in September. No sense in risking it with 3 months left.
__________________
2014 F10 M5 - Space Grey on Sahkir Orange
2016 F48 X1 - Black on Black
2017 F87 M2 - LBB on Black
2018 LP 610-4 Blu Caelum Metallic on Nero Ade (Exp. Delivery 10/17)
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2017, 10:44 PM   #10
R3dn3k Flyby
Boosty Boost
R3dn3k Flyby's Avatar
United_States
34
Rep
470
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ

iTrader: (5)

It's all about the delta. Baseline vs gains. Fuel, air density, dyno, ambient temperature, and condition of vehicle are all variables.

On our Mustang Dyno, I gained 95whp/100wtq over stock with ESS Stage 1+ and full Armytrix.

Now, with pretty sticky 200 tread wear 305's in the rear, I spin from a 50 roll.

I had the BMS Stage 1 for roughly 6 months. Never dyno'd it. But same tires, I could easily dead hook second. The Stage 1 definitely felt like a 50 or so whp gain. There is a very noticeable difference with ESS.

-James
__________________
2013 M5 : Silverstone / Black : DCT / Executive / Driver / B&O : ESS Tuning Stage 1+ / Armytrix Full Valvetronic Exhaust / Rotiform BLQ-T Forged / H&R Sport Springs / IND Cosmetic Package

2016 Mustang GT w/ Performance Package : 6MT : Vorsteiner V-FF 103
Appreciate 0
      06-16-2017, 06:55 AM   #11
M5ER
New Member
3
Rep
20
Posts

Drives: '14 M5
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Stoufville

iTrader: (0)

With everything going on with bootmod3 right now I have no idea why anyone would consider other options. Stage 1 I had no traction until well into 3rd gear.
Appreciate 0
      06-16-2017, 09:10 AM   #12
LBBF87
New Member
LBBF87's Avatar
14
Rep
24
Posts

Drives: F87 M2 - F10 M5
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M5ER View Post
With everything going on with bootmod3 right now I have no idea why anyone would consider other options. Stage 1 I had no traction until well into 3rd gear.
I would consider bootmod3 but I imagine that requires some sort of competency with regards to tuning the S63tu. I think I'd rather leave it to the professionals. For someone who knows how to tune these engines, botmod3 would surely be the way to go.
__________________
2014 F10 M5 - Space Grey on Sahkir Orange
2016 F48 X1 - Black on Black
2017 F87 M2 - LBB on Black
2018 LP 610-4 Blu Caelum Metallic on Nero Ade (Exp. Delivery 10/17)
Appreciate 0
      06-16-2017, 11:55 AM   #13
TheHouseWon
Major
230
Rep
1,246
Posts

Drives: 2013 M5
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBBF87 View Post
I would consider bootmod3 but I imagine that requires some sort of competency with regards to tuning the S63tu. I think I'd rather leave it to the professionals. For someone who knows how to tune these engines, botmod3 would surely be the way to go.
It comes with a base tune created by HCP. From there you can customize [if you want]. Customization can be done by you or a tuner from a remote location. The idea is to do a few highway pulls to allow the remote tuner (HCP) to fine tune for your specific application. It is a cool concept...
__________________
Fabworx, Eisenmann, KW HAS, Dinan Sway Bars, RK Autowerks, JB4 / BCM
Appreciate 0
      06-16-2017, 11:59 AM   #14
VF-Engineering
Captain
VF-Engineering's Avatar
323
Rep
885
Posts

Drives: F82 M4
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by R3dn3k Flyby View Post
It's all about the delta. Baseline vs gains. Fuel, air density, dyno, ambient temperature, and condition of vehicle are all variables.

-James
This is the message we have been trying to deliver for a while!

We started a thread on this topic over on the F8X Forums...
LINK: F80_Bimmerpost | ♒ TWO Dynos - HEX Tuning ♒


It might sound odd to say, but the good ol' "butt dyno" is more
reputable than a lot of single run dyno plots that show no before
data, especially when you see correction factors applied.

At least the butt dyno tells you whether the power is consistent or
not, (a huge problem with a lot of aggressive tunes) and whether
there is a noticeable difference post tune. We've all seen our fair
share of "glory runs" that looks great on paper, but unfortunately
don't deliver on the road.

Appreciate 0
      06-16-2017, 12:47 PM   #15
VF-Engineering
Captain
VF-Engineering's Avatar
323
Rep
885
Posts

Drives: F82 M4
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M5ER View Post
With everything going on with bootmod3 right now I have no idea why anyone would consider other options. Stage 1 I had no traction until well into 3rd gear.

There are lots of good reasons, but one in particular is that the concept
of "custom tuning" requires equipment and/or a skillset that is not readily
available or easily executable by an end user.

Even with the support of a local tuner/dyno shop, you're still quite limited
by the amount of experience, time, resources available to make notable
improvements over the existing tunes that are fully developed and readily
available.


I can't speak for every software brand in the ///M5 market, but our
development vehicles spend weeks at a time on the dyno before moving
on to road testing and validation. I would argue that the majority of
///M5 owners would prefer a fully engineered & validated Stage Level
offering, rather than doing their own tuning, or finding a local tuner/dyno
with the credentials and knowledge of this particular platform to put their
faith in.
Appreciate 1
      06-20-2017, 10:24 PM   #16
proTUNING Freaks
proTUNING Freaks's Avatar
755
Rep
891
Posts

Drives: powered by bootmod3
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: www.protuningfreaks.com | www.bootmod3.com (soon)

iTrader: (0)

Custom tuning is a bootmod3 feature, not a requirement. OTS (off the shelf) maps that come included with the license purchase are flash and go, an engineered tune for a given set of modifications and octane, flash and have fun.

Cars/engines/driver needs have variances, modifications and octane, type of driving, ambients they spend most of their time in and for those that are willing to take things further there will be many great options out there for getting the most out of their car.

bootmod3 is also the only flash solution on the F series platform that a user can resell when moving on along with ability to datalog the car. It has a live dashboard you can run on Android/iPhone or a Web browser and view any of the 200+ data channels in realtime. It allows for reading/clearing codes if/when needing to troubleshoot so you're more informed about an issue if/when it comes up, exhaust valve control, and easy map switching. Options that are in development that'll be released free of additional charge we'll dive into when closer to their release.

Our goal with bootmod3 was to not only provide tunes but provide an end to end open tuning platform solution and let the end user take it from there as and when/how they see fit.

Cheers
Appreciate 4
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:36 AM.




m5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST