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      05-14-2014, 06:48 AM   #89
kevinlevrone
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I am a bit worried about the next generation M5 engine though. I'm just not seeing where ///M can go next with engines. They are definitely not going to go with a bespoke engine
The current M5/M6 engine is bespoke enough to me while it produces up to 180hp more (reliable horsepower) than any other V8 twin-turbo BMW. I wouldn't want BMW to mess around with engines just to be different.
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      05-14-2014, 07:33 AM   #90
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When the f10 flatform was released, most agreed universally that since it is based on the 7 series, it is too heavy and bulky. Keep in mind the 550i has as much power than an e39 m5, and more torque than an e60. Roads in the northeast are terrible and Bmw has been manufacturing an x6m and x5m for some time. So its fair to say that the while the brand(m Brand) is still powerful its very much diluted and competition for both internally and among brands has improved. I havent considered power mods to my f10 m5 because traction always kicks in as is so its more than adequately powered. when i was to a bmwcca event in jersey before they released the x5m, an exec at bmw said when referring to the x5m, "this car has to sell to be a success"

I drove my m5 around the new york all winter with the standard michelin pilots. I did not have a problem but had to be very cautious and never actually drove when the roads where not plowed. im not sure awd would have made a buying difference. It seems hoever that awd is an industry standard now but im not convinced awd will get the m5 to the sales numbers they expect or want going forward. the overall economy is worse than it was ten years ago and people at least in the new york area are less interested in high end cars or the perception that comes with them.

i think horsepower wars have caused diminishing returns, meaning that
a bump from 300 to 450hp is meaningful for everyday driving...but to go from a 550i's 400hp to 560hp of the m5 you start to hear, "why do u need all that power..so if the next generation goes from 560-620, will people be more inclined to buy it and will sales numbers grow? im not so sure...

my advice or opinion(what i wrote in an earlier post) is that the car may be getting too expensive for its class.. why are e63 and m5s all discounted heavily? i think largely becauyse theyre nit priced correctly--theyre 10-15 grand too expensive for a 5 series platform. Ive suggested peers at work look into an m5 and the marginal buyer says, "cant i get a loaded 7 series for that price.?" well we know the 7 series is a different car but thats how the marginal buyer thinks.

Personally i think the next generation m has to be dumbed down if they want to sell more. the emphasis on technoogly is great but it turns people off including women. I offered the car to my parents who are taking a road trip and my mother said " no, we dont know how to use it". she drives a 2004 e320, and has a perception that bmw cars and my car are too sophisticated. Second, the next gen has to be smaller and lighter. third baseline pricing has to be in mid 80s. Finally--THE SUSPENSEFUL TWO YEAR ROLLOUT CANT HAPPEN AGAIN.
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      05-14-2014, 08:14 AM   #91
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Interesting. For me it is a big decrease in handling because I like to move the car at the limit here and there and understeer is the worst thing to have I think. I remember when I was on the racetrack with the R8 V10, I mean it was fast, but only while driving it at like 85-90%. Once you really pushed it, it was pretty terrible with all that understeer. Not that enjoyable to me. And since BMW M is for purists I just believe in that RWD, best dynamics kind of philosophy.

I mean I am pretty sure if they offer AWD, it will be an option, which seems okay. However, I'd be pissed if I meet another M5 on the street that kicks my ass on a little acceleration run lol.

I just feel that all the companies are losing their uniqueness and are all moving towards being the same thing. BMW M got more comfortable and AMG got a little sportier and more Dynamic and Audi is filling that little gap inbetween. They all lost their characters a bit

Anyways... Enough trolling lol.

Thanks for your pov though. I really was looking for a serious answer.
I'll bite & add my tuppence worth

Market forces are going to drive what M decide to do with next M5 - it is a niche product (compromise between of sports & luxury) and we are a subset of owners, however, M5 is primarily a road car, so demands from current owners & offerings from competition will dictate M's decision on AWD.

Also, Quattro may have a reputation for understeer, but xdrive does not and I would expect M GmbH to breathe some magic on 'their' version of xdrive. In making this product a commercial success, the majority of road users are going to want real world cross country ability, not limit handling, and that's where AWD can have it's advantages in providing confidence in changing conditions. If I wanted to predominately track a road car, I would buy a more track focused car (991 GT3, etc.) in trade for some of the refinement the M5 offers.

I cannot understand why optional AWD should be an issue for perspective owners - a conscious decision will be made as to whether or not your driving style/environment warrants AWD or not. As to 'little acceleration runs', there are always bigger fish (be it cars or drivers).

Do you get the impression that I'm in the 'tick xdrive checkbox' camp

If you still think 'M is for purists' I would advise looking forward to a possible replacement for M3 GTS or another brand rather than next gen M5.

And last but not least, I agree with your comment regarding 'divergence' to a point (Ms, AMGs & RSs still have there own distinct character, what isn't so encouraging is the need for platform sharing within BMW, Mercedes & VAG to reduce costs), however, market forces at play again - it will be interesting to see the sales figures for Manual F10 M5s (coupled with any increase in liabilities to BMW, i.e. associated warranty claims) - I'd hazard a guess that that 'purists' option may also go the way of the Dodo...

Last edited by Dionysus; 05-14-2014 at 01:18 PM.
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      05-14-2014, 08:56 AM   #92
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I drove my m5 around the new york all winter with the standard michelin pilots. I did not have a problem but had to be very cautious and never actually drove when the roads where not plowed. im not sure awd would have made a buying difference.
Xdrive does not perform miracles on very low friction surfaces such as compacted snow, ice, etc. You still need winter tyres in those conditions for optimal performance. Where it does work well is in providing consistency in changing conditions (for example, during brief and heavy outbreak of rain on otherwise sunny day).

If BMW choose to carry on as they are with Ms (turbo, low rev torque, etc.) good selling point for AWD in next gen M5 would be the following video (discounting any of us who are racing drivers, etc., how many of us would have the confidence to do the same as this M550d in an F10 M5 with all it's traction issues) - and BMW have refused to sell the M550d in RWD format due to the torque output: -



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Originally Posted by brainblade View Post
i think horsepower wars have caused diminishing returns, meaning that
a bump from 300 to 450hp is meaningful for everyday driving...but to go from a 550i's 400hp to 560hp of the m5 you start to hear, "why do u need all that power..so if the next generation goes from 560-620, will people be more inclined to buy it and will sales numbers grow? im not so sure...
Agreed. Case in point is current gen RS6 - last gen TT 5.0 V10 was 572bhp/650NM - current gen TT 4.0 V8 556bhp/700MN- both AWD, but current gen ~100kg lighter, so increased 0-62, economy, handling, etc. Hopefully this will set the trend for Mercedes & BMW to follow, however, if 'bragging rights' are still part of the average super saloon buyers wish list it may not.

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Originally Posted by brainblade View Post
Personally i think the next generation m has to be dumbed down if they want to sell more. the emphasis on technoogly is great but it turns people off including women. I offered the car to my parents who are taking a road trip and my mother said " no, we dont know how to use it". she drives a 2004 e320, and has a perception that bmw cars and my car are too sophisticated. Second, the next gen has to be smaller and lighter. third baseline pricing has to be in mid 80s. Finally--THE SUSPENSEFUL TWO YEAR ROLLOUT CANT HAPPEN AGAIN.
I would predict M5 will move towards even more lux & tech (but lower weight will help performance) - I'm not sure that our mothers are the target demographic for M5 ownership. I doubt it will be long before we start turning down the tech of the generation of our descendants as 'too sophisticated' (I'm making myself sound old)

Last edited by Dionysus; 05-14-2014 at 09:23 AM.
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      05-14-2014, 08:57 AM   #93
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my advice or opinion(what i wrote in an earlier post) is that the car may be getting too expensive for its class..

Second, the next gen has to be smaller and lighter. third baseline pricing has to be in mid 80s. Finally--THE SUSPENSEFUL TWO YEAR ROLLOUT CANT HAPPEN AGAIN.
I agree with you to an extent. I think the Base Price of the M5 is set semi-appropriately, it should be a little lower and the Executive Package and Drivers Assistance Package should at least be standard. I wonder how many M5's are sold without the Executive Package? Probably very few. Nowadays we are seeing loaded M5's break $140K MSRP. Where as the last generation M5 got up to about $101-102K Fully Loaded MSRP. Granted there are a lot more options for this generation M5, Comp Pack and CCB's being the most expensive.

Yes the next M5 will be lighter, not so sure about smaller. I really don't think that BMW is going to make a follow on generation of car smaller than the last. Yes the two year rollout sucked, but it was only for the American Market. The rest of the world got 2012 M5's. The the U.S. is the biggest market, but it's not the only market they have to be concerned with. Additionally, when the 2013 M5's finally did come people still bought them here in America. In fact they seemed to have increased production 10 fold and within 6 months of the F10 M5 hitting U.S. shores, the M5 market in the U.S. was flooded with M5's that dealerships simply couldn't sell. At one point there we're over 600 2013 M5's for sale on dealership floors just in the U.S. alone. I'm hoping the two year rollout won't happen again, but if it does then I'll be fine with it since the F10 M5 will still be so good.
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      05-14-2014, 09:02 AM   #94
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I would predict M5 will move towards even more lux & tech (but lower weight will help performance)
The next M5 will definitely be more technological. They're talking about having systems where the car will be able to do lane changes for you on the highway, you get out of the car in front of Walmart and push a button and the car will go find a parking spot for itself, laser headlights, and maybe even fully automated driving. Stuff like that is definitely in the future.
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      05-14-2014, 10:21 AM   #95
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as far as the size..i have no idea why the f10 grew so much in size and bulk from e60..is it that bmw sees greater deannd in china where they prefer the 5 and its size--is it that 7 series, or large luxury crusiers are going the way of the dodo bird in the US and the f10 was designed to replace lost share? i believed the e60 had perfect interior space and the f10 is borderline too roomy. So i do think its possible to maintain the same interior space yet shrink the exterior. if next generation lose weight, i hope exterior dimensions dont grow.
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      05-14-2014, 10:56 AM   #96
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as far as the size..i have no idea why the f10 grew so much in size and bulk from e60..is it that bmw sees greater deannd in china where they prefer the 5 and its size--is it that 7 series, or large luxury crusiers are going the way of the dodo bird in the US and the f10 was designed to replace lost share? i believed the e60 had perfect interior space and the f10 is borderline too roomy. So i do think its possible to maintain the same interior space yet shrink the exterior. if next generation lose weight, i hope exterior dimensions dont grow.
Chinese market may grow to the point where it dictates what the rest of us get but, for now, longer wheelbase models, are fulfilling their needs. F10 size most likely in response to E-class which grew to silly interior proportions (wasn't far from S-class interior dimensions) after the W124 model.

If the F80 M3 hand a better interior and more refinement, I'd be tempted. As it stands the forthcoming C63 AMG replacement is more likely to be a better 'small M5'.

Where MB differs from BMW is that they don't restrict the refinement in the C-class, whereas the 3 series always seems to have a glass ceiling to distant it from the 5 series (probably so that they don't get current 5 series drivers jumping into less profitable 3 series; BMW attracts drivers looking for sportier cars than MB, which usually means smaller, less weight, etc.).

Current gen A6 is a little bigger than the F10, so (again IMHO) would predict G30 to grow in size a little. Not sure if 7 series sales are yet at a point where it will be discontinued (the 2013 7 series I was given to road test drove worse than the F10 (interior was slightly better though), but some people will always just think bigger is better and be prepared to line BMWs pockets accordingly - all good as profit=development funds). Let's not forget that X7 is also on the cards.
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      05-14-2014, 11:02 AM   #97
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Quote:
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as far as the size..i have no idea why the f10 grew so much in size and bulk from e60..is it that bmw sees greater deannd in china where they prefer the 5 and its size--is it that 7 series, or large luxury crusiers are going the way of the dodo bird in the US and the f10 was designed to replace lost share? i believed the e60 had perfect interior space and the f10 is borderline too roomy. So i do think its possible to maintain the same interior space yet shrink the exterior. if next generation lose weight, i hope exterior dimensions dont grow.
Speak for yourself. Those of us who aren't 5'9" & 170 lbs (avg height and weight in U.S.) feel the F10 is just fine. I'm 6'7" and the e60 felt cramped to me. It's all relative. You could suggest I purchase a 750 or B7, but I could suggest you get a M3 (some say it's the size of the old 5-series) or better yet a M235i b/c I'm sure that's not too roomy. As in most things in life, one size doesn't fit all but the F10 platform does accommodate a wider range of buyers.
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      05-14-2014, 11:55 AM   #98
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I believed the e60 had perfect interior space and the f10 is borderline too roomy.
This is how I feel too, but the passengers in the back seats sure appreciate the extra space and I do like how much wider the car is compared to the E60 from an exterior looks perspective.
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      05-14-2014, 12:01 PM   #99
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Let's not forget that X7 is also on the cards.
The Z5 and Z2 are also on the cards. Plus a possible 9-Series.

I wish they'd make a sedan back to the size of the E60 or a little bigger than the F80 and a little wider to look more aggressive. I loved the size of the E60, fit like a glove for me, but I'm only 5'7". The E90 felt just a little too cramped for me at times, where as the F10 feels very roomy for me. The F06 Gran Coupe is a weird one too. It feels to big and too small at the same time. I'm sure for taller and heavier people the F06 feels cramped, especially in the back.
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      05-14-2014, 12:10 PM   #100
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      05-14-2014, 03:32 PM   #101
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The moment the M5 comes only in AWD is the moment I stop buying an M car.
An M car should be RWD only.
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      05-14-2014, 05:49 PM   #102
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The moment the M5 comes only in AWD is the moment I stop buying an M car.
An M car should be RWD only.
..and naturally aspirated
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      05-14-2014, 05:50 PM   #103
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Speak for yourself. Those of us who aren't 5'9" & 170 lbs (avg height and weight in U.S.) feel the F10 is just fine. I'm 6'7" and the e60 felt cramped to me. It's all relative. You could suggest I purchase a 750 or B7, but I could suggest you get a M3 (some say it's the size of the old 5-series) or better yet a M235i b/c I'm sure that's not too roomy. As in most things in life, one size doesn't fit all but the F10 platform does accommodate a wider range of buyers.

F10 is way too big. No need to buy a 7 series anymore... I mean if you're 6'7", you're more the exception.
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      05-14-2014, 05:50 PM   #104
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The moment the M5 comes only in AWD is the moment I stop buying an M car.
An M car should be RWD only.
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      05-14-2014, 09:27 PM   #105
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Yeah the next generation M5 is going to be WAY WAY lighter. How much lighter?

9,000 TONS LIGHTER! LOL!

http://blog.caranddriver.com/bmw-car...-cars-anymore/
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      05-14-2014, 11:32 PM   #106
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Yeah the next generation M5 is going to be WAY WAY lighter. How much lighter?

9,000 TONS LIGHTER! LOL!

http://blog.caranddriver.com/bmw-car...-cars-anymore/
They are saying significantly more weight saving compared to the 80 kg saving seen in the M3/M4. I am guessing 85 kg
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      05-15-2014, 12:26 AM   #107
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I was thinking about giving up on BMW due to their lack of a true AWD performance car (currently driving a '13 X5M & '13 650xi), but an M5x/M6x might keep me from defecting. I think this is good news.
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      05-15-2014, 04:45 AM   #108
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All very exciting, sounds like it'll be an incredible family super saloon, but it still pretty portly at 1850kg.

Any danger of all this carbon technology and 600 plus horsepower going into something mid engined and 400kg lighter in 2016?
That's from the initial architecture and drivetrain, you have to consider body panels also.
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      05-15-2014, 04:51 AM   #109
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I want the old M Division back where they were confused about why anyone would want cup holders in an M car and said there wouldn't be suv or awd M's.
That's like you wanting Betamax or VHS , or an actual film loaded camera.
All superseded by progress , same with the automobile industry and of course BMW M. Any industry cannot stand still and keep on producing the same item over and over. You need to become competitive and cannot ignore what the consumer dictates.

Those days at BMW M. Have gone.

PS Cup holders in any car where dictated by US consumers.
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      05-15-2014, 04:54 AM   #110
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Attended BMW clinic last Fri, teased next gen 5-series and 5GT, finally headlight from 4-series Concept is utilized in production and new black shifting lever looks amazing
And this is signing an NDA and being asked not to talk about it...
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