09-03-2016, 11:48 AM | #67 |
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Speaking of accordion style tubes in OEM intakes, why are they used universally across so many platforms? Is it their flexibility that attracts or their efficient flow?
Also, does carbon fiber heat soak less than aluminum? Does CF heat soak less than the OEM plastic? Thx |
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09-03-2016, 12:04 PM | #68 | |
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They are extremely flexible, that is the primary purpose for their use. You lose a little bit in terms of flow, you're tripping the flow over each accordian rib, but it's worth that loss because you prevent components that are rigid from being damaged. Regarding the heat soak question, this should answer it. Thermal conductivity is the quantity of heat transmitted through a unit thickness, in a direction normal to a surface of unit area, because of a unit temperature gradient, under steady conditions. In other words it's a measure of how easily heat flows through a material. There are a number of systems of measures depending on metric or imperial units. 1 W/(m.K) = 1 W/(m.oC) = 0.85984 kcal/(hr.m.oC) = 0.5779 Btu/(ft.hr.oF) This table is only for comparison. The units are W/(m.K) (lower the number the better) Air .024 Aluminium 250 Concrete .4 - .7 Carbon Steel 54 Mineral Wool insulation .04 Plywood .13 Quartz 3 Pyrex Glass 1 Pine .12 Carbon Fiber Reinforced Epoxy 24 Here's some more on the coefficient of thermal expansion This is a measure of how much a material expands and contracts when the temperature goes up or down. Units are in Inch / inch degree F, as in other tables, the units are not so important as the comparison. Steel 7 Aluminium 13 Kevlar 3 or lower Carbon Fiber woven 2 or less Carbon fiber unidirectional minus 1 to +8 Fiberglass 7-8 Brass 11 Carbon fiber can have a broad range of CTE's, -1 to 8+, depending on the direction measured, the fabric weave, the precursor material, Pan based (high strength, higher CTE) or Pitch based (high modulus/stiffness, lower CTE). In a high enough mast differences in Coefficients of thermal expansion of various materials can slightly modify the rig tensions. Low Coefficient of Thermal expansion makes carbon fiber suitable for applications where small movements can be critical. Telescope and other optical machinery is one such application. http://www.christinedemerchant.com/c...teristics.html Thanks -R |
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09-03-2016, 12:15 PM | #69 |
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I meant platforms to mean different car manufacturers: Honda, Infiniti, MBZ, Ford, etc
Edit: thanks for the detailed explanation, I should have paid more attention in physics class! |
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09-03-2016, 12:36 PM | #70 | |
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This is a hump hose coupler This is a straight coupler -R |
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09-03-2016, 08:14 PM | #72 |
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Raza,
Why is there a difference between a 2013 and 2015 in the above graphs, I didn't know they changed anything. Is the 'port' the ~30mm hole in the bottom air box half? |
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09-03-2016, 09:35 PM | #73 |
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DME adapts by changing the ST and LT trims. However it never would run super lean >5K RPM even if you just plugged in a mod and went WOT. All the adaptation does is adjust based on the new average. This may take a few cycles but it's not like it runs any different. The only secondary impact is that other parameters like timing may be influenced by the new 'average' - but this is all in the DME maps.
It's like when I dyno at 22psi and then immediately dyno at 28psi - a good 100+whp. Car doesn't need to 'adapt'... 1st pull or even after 20 pulls it still makes the same power at 28psi. An intake is nowhere close in terms of airflow to a 6psi increase. If the car really had to adapt it would keep gaining power - which it does not. My $0.02 on adaptation. |
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09-03-2016, 09:49 PM | #74 | ||
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So in my data, 2013 is with the port closed and charcoal filter in, 2015 is with the port open and a velocity stack inside the system. simplifying things 1) column B - 2013 M5, closed port, charcoal filter installed 2) column C - "2015" M5, open port, charcoal filter installed 3) columb D - open port with velocity stack, charcoal filter removed 4) column E - RK autowerk intakes 5) column F - MSR intakes 6) column G - closed port, charcoal filter removed This explains why people see the different benefits with dyno graphs on intake configurations, if you have a 2013, obviously you'll see the most. If you're running the velocity stack port and no charcoal, this is the least amount. That's why we advertise a range of delta power for the intakes, not just 1 number. |
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09-04-2016, 02:20 AM | #75 |
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Thanks Raza
As I thought. I would guess the 'velocity' stact is just a sound muffler for the hole they introduced in the air box, its the wrong way round to work otherwise. |
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09-04-2016, 02:23 AM | #76 | |
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09-04-2016, 06:40 AM | #77 | |
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So that's not a velocity stack, that's a diffuser. Further proving that anyone who has a velocity stack in their intake system is doing it wrong on a forced induction car. |
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09-04-2016, 08:27 AM | #78 |
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The reason why you want to scavenge pressure instead of velocity is flow seperation. If the flow hits the compressor blade at too fast of a speed, you can get it to go passed mach 1 depending on the blade design. I can't remember which portion of the blade, i'd have to bust out a turbo-machinery book. But that's why you want to scavenge pressure when possible.
Here's a diagram of what is going in in a subsonic regime. So i'll ask again M6beast...how are you compressing the flow again. -R |
09-04-2016, 09:38 AM | #79 | |
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For those who would like to see all the data testing Dyno vbox and track please email info@mstreetracing.com and once again thanks for all the documentation you present to the forum members great write up! |
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09-04-2016, 10:18 AM | #80 |
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A lot of information being disseminated in this thread. That's the power of the forums being put to good use. The bickering is just an expense to the shared knowledge. I'm no rocket scientist or intake developer but I do know a little about fluid mechanics. Bench flow tests give you straight up numbers and unskewed data. Street racing gives you many variables and half truths (people fib about what mods are done). Personally I tend to back the products of those with solid data that represent themselves in a professional manner.
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09-04-2016, 10:20 AM | #81 | |
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2014 BMW F10 M5 ZCP | SSII / Black | MSR Stage III | MSR Intakes | RPi GTM Exhaust | RPi Catless Downpipes |RW Carbon Front Lip | RW Carbon Diffuser | RW Carbon Trunk Spoiler |
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09-04-2016, 10:23 AM | #82 | |
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Couple it with OEM- like build quality and competitive pricing and it's no contest. |
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09-04-2016, 11:23 AM | #83 | |
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Your response with respect to vbox, quarter mile, and etc mean absolutely nothing. I just showed you with my data how much of a benefit a 2013 M5 has if you simply remove the charcoal filter. You have zero testing showing the charcoal filter vbox times, trap speeds, and etc on the same car. As a design engineer you're responsible for validating a product and the fundamentals behind it. The "why" behind something working is more important than it working. It allows you to correct a design if it doesn't work, I call that knowledge growth. Everyone on here should ask WHY with governing physics behind a product when purchasing a performance product. The more we educate everyone, the better our community is. The consumer trusts you when you tell them something. Why is it that your keep coming at me with remarks such as "you're doing anything and everything to sell your product." If i was a consumer and i asked you these questions, is that how you'd treat me? Everyone that has purchased product from me will tell you that when they ask me "why" something i developed works, i enjoy talking science with them. They walk away with more knowledge than when they met me. Even if they don't purchase anything, i know i did my part in the community. I'm not going to ask you the same question again because it seems like you don't want to have a high level discussion. -Raza (Rah Zah)<--- please don't butcher my name again George, thanks |
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09-04-2016, 11:28 AM | #84 | |
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But instead he reverts to the 1/4 mile times of ONE car in every rebuttal. We're getting down to the science of things and this is turning into a great thread. I'm not sure why he refuses to explain how he's compressing air flow. |
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09-04-2016, 11:42 AM | #85 | ||
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2014 BMW F10 M5 ZCP | SSII / Black | MSR Stage III | MSR Intakes | RPi GTM Exhaust | RPi Catless Downpipes |RW Carbon Front Lip | RW Carbon Diffuser | RW Carbon Trunk Spoiler |
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09-04-2016, 11:44 AM | #86 |
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09-04-2016, 11:51 AM | #87 |
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Copy design? If we're copying designs, my intakes would be aluminum, mesh grill, CNC flange. None of those things exist.
If your argument is copying, every OEM is a copy then, everyone who sells branded water is a copy. Everyone should be ashamed they "copied" Karl Benz invention of the automobile. Every company with a touch screen phone copied apple. I'm not going to sit here and tell you i didn't take the MSR design into consideration, because i did. I also took into consideration the evolve, dinan, gruppe M, and etc; because they produce carbon pieces that were 3d scanned and reverse engineered. There were a lot of flaws, in my opinion with the MSR design, so i felt i could make a better product, which i did. Bashing would be me pointing out those flaws, nowhere in this thread have i done that. I've only asked questions that others asked, none of the questions are mine, they are all "copies." -R |
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09-04-2016, 11:57 AM | #88 |
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Have you even seen either in person? The beauty of a 3D scan optimized design is that you can take up the maximum amount of real estate while fitting perfectly. There's a lot more involved in making the RK intakes than welding aluminum pipes together
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