Next Gen M5 supposedly has been confirmed with same engine as F10 M5 and xDrive only

[E90potentialbuyer]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

The current engine already produced 600+. The tuned one on 2016 M6 or M5 Jahre is already produced 650+.... and don't ask me where that 650+ number is coming from but Dinan has measured 600+ for stock S63tu

You mean 600+?

Before power, I would like more traction and removal of speed limiter out of the gates. Less weight would be better as well. And then some more power - with a gear box that can handle it.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by E90potentialbuyer

You mean 600+?

Before power, I would like more traction and removal of speed limiter out of the gates. Less weight would be better as well. And then some more power - with a gear box that can handle it.

I meant 650+ HP is there.. easily... For sure with that power (and torque) and RWD you will have traction issue. no traction issue with that power? you need AWD or rear weight biased car like McLaren or Ferrari
And why do you need speed limiter removal in US? where do you want to go 200 mph? I would like to know so I can go too

[E90potentialbuyer]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

I meant 650+ HP is there.. easily... For sure with that power (and torque) and RWD you will have traction issue. no traction issue with that power? you need AWD or rear weight biased car like McLaren or Ferrari
And why do you need speed limiter removal in US? where do you want to go 200 mph? I would like to know so I can go too

Agreed. If car can go to 200 mph no need to limit it. It's principally wrong.

[JustChris]

Could eTurbos be more realistic in this next gen M5/6. Light weight ann efficient and very fast responses.

[dsad1]

I might be in the minority, but it makes sense to me that the m5 would only be offered in xdrive. This is a sedan, not a coupe. It is aimed for people that want to go fast in their family cars, it isn't meant for track performance. For most it doesn't really matter how light the car is. They care more on how quick it can get to speed without having to give up size, tech, and luxury.

Now I would find it odd if they did this in the m4 or m6 though.

[AlphaM]

Seriously, i think ///M has always done a great job with innovation in the ///M models and the next gen M5 will be great as well, i'm sure of it.
The REAL issue with BMW is.......DESIGN. They must be regretting getting rid of Chris Bangle BIG TIME (i know I miss the old style bimmers).
I just saw the new 7 series (flagship) at my dealership and holy shit, it looks terrible, terrible, terrible (mostly from the outside). It's just unacceptable for BMW to be producing so uninspiring cars in 2015 that cost close to $200k.
i'm the biggest bmw fan but the direction they've taken is a real concern.
Their engineering is fantasic but holy crap their design has taken a really bad turn!!
The bottom line is, who the heck wants a 700hp m5 (v8 or v10) if it's going to look like SHIT!!
That's what i think!

[ChrisNich117]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

The poster on this thread on the other side of the forum shared some tidbits of info. In one line he managed to dash my hopes for the next M5, if it is true of course.

So he states that the Next Generation M5 (I'm not convinced yet it will be called the F90) will have the same S63tu engine as the F10 M5 and will be AWD only, BUT! I still think that ///M is going to introduce the next M5 and M6 with a pushbutton setup where the driver can select if they want AWD or RWD. I really think that the front two wheels are going to be powered by electric motors, as it is what the BMW i8 uses and what has been talked about with the eDrive concept.

I do think that if the eDrive concept does make it into the next M5/M6 the S63tu engine might even offer less power and better fuel efficiency but will have the electric motors to reach that 600hp limit that ///M stated a while back would be their ceiling for hp on all future ///M cars.

I don't want to start a rant, but this is just a sad state of affairs for the next M5. They are going to develop all kinds of exciting new technologies for the car, but the engine. With an xDrive setup, I'm sure we'll be seeing 0-60 times in the 3.0 second range too. Not sure if the next M5 is going to be too much lighter if they throw batteries in the car though, just like how the i8 isn't really that light because of its batteries.

Seems like ///M is definitely going to be focusing on more efficiency. The S85 may very well be their crowning achievement.

http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=901686

There won't be any electric motors or batteries. BMW has made it very clear time and time again that the I division will remain separate and that those technologies will not make their way over to the M division yet, and neither will the M engineers get their hands on any i vehicles.... For now. Maybe they will utilize a lithium ion battery to reduce some weight. Doubt it, but maybe.

If the same engine makes it to the new car it will just be more refined and make a bit more power. Mercedes flat out copied the M engine for their new 4L v8 models except for the dry sump oil system. It's a fantastic engine, and when they do add AWD and reduce the weight by the same carbon fiber chassis strategy that they used in the new 7 series, no other car manufacturer will be able to come close to this next car for quite some time. BMW's biggest advantage is their carbon fiber production through SGL group. Cadillac can reverse engineer the car all they want this time around but they won't come close to the weight advantage without it being more expensive.

The next car could easily be less than 3900lbs because not only will they utilize carbon fiber for the chassis, but then the driveshaft, roof, hood, trunk, and other components like we've seen on the m4/m3 models. AWD is not something that should scare people. It's clearly superior, and now that they have that guy from Audi I'm sure they are working on something far more advanced then what the current x drive system is capable of.

So.... Here's what will arrive. A similarly sized 4 door sedan with over 600hp (underrated which we all know), significant use of carbon fiber to reduce the weight well below 4000lbs, (I'll guess and say 3880), better version of the DCT, breaks that don't squeak (please god I hope they followed at least 1 thread on this forum), and some absurd new technology using the words active, proactive, dynamic, efficient, revolutionary, or alien The performance will be more than enough and you'll never be able to push it to any of its limits unless you take it to a track. So long as the car doesn't start driving itself like a tesla, I'll be happy.

[ChrisNich117]

Originally Posted by djsaad1

I might be in the minority, but it makes sense to me that the m5 would only be offered in xdrive. This is a sedan, not a coupe. It is aimed for people that want to go fast in their family cars, it isn't meant for track performance. For most it doesn't really matter how light the car is. They care more on how quick it can get to speed without having to give up size, tech, and luxury.

Now I would find it odd if they did this in the m4 or m6 though.

AWD would be superior on the track. RWD, just like the manual transmission, is viewed as obsolete to these engineers. It's become a subjective choice of personal preference. But the numbers and data don't lie. If the demand is high enough we might see some in RWD like they did for those that wanted a manual tranny, but I highly doubt it due to the R&D costs.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by ChrisNich117

There won't be any electric motors or batteries. BMW has made it very clear time and time again that the I division will remain separate and that those technologies will not make their way over to the M division yet, and neither will the M engineers get their hands on any i vehicles.... For now. Maybe they will utilize a lithium ion battery to reduce some weight. Doubt it, but maybe.

If the same engine makes it to the new car it will just be more refined and make a bit more power. Mercedes flat out copied the M engine for their new 4L v8 models except for the dry sump oil system. It's a fantastic engine, and when they do add AWD and reduce the weight by the same carbon fiber chassis strategy that they used in the new 7 series, no other car manufacturer will be able to come close to this next car for quite some time. BMW's biggest advantage is their carbon fiber production through SGL group. Cadillac can reverse engineer the car all they want this time around but they won't come close to the weight advantage without it being more expensive.

The next car could easily be less than 3900lbs because not only will they utilize carbon fiber for the chassis, but then the driveshaft, roof, hood, trunk, and other components like we've seen on the m4/m3 models. AWD is not something that should scare people. It's clearly superior, and now that they have that guy from Audi I'm sure they are working on something far more advanced then what the current x drive system is capable of.

So.... Here's what will arrive. A similarly sized 4 door sedan with over 600hp (underrated which we all know), significant use of carbon fiber to reduce the weight well below 4000lbs, (I'll guess and say 3880), better version of the DCT, breaks that don't squeak (please god I hope they followed at least 1 thread on this forum), and some absurd new technology using the words active, proactive, dynamic, efficient, revolutionary, or alien The performance will be more than enough and you'll never be able to push it to any of its limits unless you take it to a track. So long as the car doesn't start driving itself like a tesla, I'll be happy.

I wish but I highly doubt M5 will get to 3880 pounds.

[HappyMan]

Why everyone is scared of AWD?? We will still be able to drift as we want because it will be very rear biased. We won't be loosing from the dig to anyone. Best of both worlds!!!

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by ChrisNich117

So.... Here's what will arrive. A similarly sized 4 door sedan with over 600hp (underrated which we all know), significant use of carbon fiber to reduce the weight well below 4000lbs, (I'll guess and say 3880),...

If you are referring to well equipped one which is normally offered in US and currently is 4400b, even with the same platform of 7 series it's not possible to reduce ~500 lb unless they want to significantly cut the size of car about 5-6" or increase the price to compensate the cost of Carbon Fiber that I doubt it happens...My guess is something about 4100-4200 lb if they don't want to go for AWD or electric motor.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by HappyMan

Why everyone is scared of AWD?? We will still be able to drift as we want because it will be very rear biased. We won't be loosing from the dig to anyone. Best of both worlds!!!

All of AWD cars in this class (RS7, E63 AMG, CLS63 AMG) are front weight biased... RS7 is 56/44, CLS63 is 55/45, E63 is 53/47... So basically AWD GT cars are front bias...

[ChrisNich117]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

If you are referring to well equipped one which is normally offered in US and currently is 4400b, even with the same platform of 7 series it's not possible to reduce ~500 lb unless they want to significantly cut the size of car about 5-6" or increase the price to compensate the cost of Carbon Fiber that I doubt it happens...My guess is something about 4100-4200 lb if they don't want to go for AWD or electric motor.

The curb weight is 4387lbs, let's make it a well equipped car and subtract another 50lbs for 4337lbs with the ccb's. Add a carbon fiber roof, hood, trunk, drive shaft and say another 50lbs and were down to 4287lbs, and since the new 7 was able to save almost 300lbs with the carbon core tech, I think the car will certainly be able to get under 4000 especially with the M engineers finding suitable parts to substitute with cfrp. I don't think BMW will use all this low cost carbon fiber just to weigh as much as the new cts V and risk not meeting their fuel consumption goals to get in line with the EPA. AWD will be the wild card as far as weight goes but I think the numbers aren't too far fetched.

[///M5ForWin]

I recently had the opportunity to test drive the new 750. It has the twin turbo V8 and AWD, and of course carbon core frame. I was shocked how fast and agile the car is for its size. I was even tempted, for a few seconds, to trade in my M5 for one. If, the next generation M5 has the same engine, the carbon core frame, and AWD, and performs better than the 750, which it absolutely should being smaller and lighter, and an M, after all, I will be very happy.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by ChrisNich117

The curb weight is 4387lbs, let's make it a well equipped car and subtract another 50lbs for 4337lbs with the ccb's. Add a carbon fiber roof, hood, trunk, drive shaft and say another 50lbs and were down to 4287lbs, and since the new 7 was able to save almost 300lbs with the carbon core tech, I think the car will certainly be able to get under 4000 especially with the M engineers finding suitable parts to substitute with cfrp. I don't think BMW will use all this low cost carbon fiber just to weigh as much as the new cts V and risk not meeting their fuel consumption goals to get in line with the EPA. AWD will be the wild card as far as weight goes but I think the numbers aren't too far fetched.

I understand your point but this is exactly what I am trying to say. Adding those CF hood, roof, trunk, driveshaft means al teast extra $10-20k! and then who is gonna pay 140-150k for a well equipped M5 (with CCB in addition to those CF for weight saving)??? My point is that spending $20-30k on CF stuff for limited production exotic cars such as McLaren 650s or Huracan makes sense but for a mass production DD car for a large population with limited income ?? I don't think so...

BTW even with your calculation 4287-300 = 3987 and not 3880 lb; however that CF core on 7 series saved 286 lb ... or maybe you can add CF rims to save another 30-40 lb and adding another $5-10k....
CF is expensive because of material and the process ...

[ChrisNich117]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

I understand your point but this is exactly what I am trying to say. Adding those CF hood, roof, trunk, driveshaft means al teast extra $10-20k! and then who is gonna pay 140-150k for a well equipped M5 (with CCB in addition to those CF for weight saving)??? My point is that spending $20-30k on CF stuff for limited production exotic cars such as McLaren 650s or Huracan makes sense but for a mass production DD car for a large population with limited income ?? I don't think so...

BTW even with your calculation 4287-300 = 3987 and not 3880 lb; however that CF core on 7 series saved 286 lb ... or maybe you can add CF rims to save another 30-40 lb and adding another $5-10k....
CF is expensive because of material and the process ...

I wasn't referring back to my original estimate there but I appreciate the slap for not catching that hahaha. But! You forget my good sir, that BMW's advantage is with SGL group. These cfrp parts are being mass produced now. That's why the i3 and i8 are all carbon fiber. The parts for the m3 and m4 cost BMW 1/10 what they would cost for another company to produce. The cost will in no way be that high for if it were then our m3 and m4 brethren would be driving m5's and m6's at that price point. Cfrp is very cost effective for BMW to produce and that's why they are able to utilize the carbon core strategy. If they couldn't then the new 7 would be upwards of 200k.

Bottom line, BMW can mass produce cfrp for a fraction of the cost that it once was and still is for the rest of the other manufacturers out there. So no, those parts will not be more expensive, and if anything they may even bring the cost down for other materials like aluminum and steal.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by ChrisNich117

I wasn't referring back to my original estimate there but I appreciate the slap for not catching that hahaha. But! You forget my good sir, that BMW's advantage is with SGL group. These cfrp parts are being mass produced now. That's why the i3 and i8 are all carbon fiber. The parts for the m3 and m4 cost BMW 1/10 what they would cost for another company to produce. The cost will in no way be that high for if it were then our m3 and m4 brethren would be driving m5's and m6's at that price point. Cfrp is very cost effective for BMW to produce and that's why they are able to utilize the carbon core strategy. If they couldn't then the new 7 would be upwards of 200k.

Bottom line, BMW can mass produce cfrp for a fraction of the cost that it once was and still is for the rest of the other manufacturers out there. So no, those parts will not be more expensive, and if anything they may even bring the cost down for other materials like aluminum and steal.

Well, time and time again you see manufacturer claim newer, lighter chassis but only add weight back with additional luxury or safety features. So I am not optimistic with BMW getting the M5 under 3900 pounds.

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

All of AWD cars in this class (RS7, E63 AMG, CLS63 AMG) are front weight biased... RS7 is 56/44, CLS63 is 55/45, E63 is 53/47... So basically AWD GT cars are front bias...

I think he is referring to rear biased xdrive, as in 70/30 permanent split similar to the E63.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Well, time and time again you see manufacturer claim newer, lighter chassis but only add weight back with additional luxury or safety features. So I am not optimistic with BMW getting the M5 under 3900 pounds.

You are absolutely right. C&D reported the test result of new 7 series with AWD. Car weights 4883lb !!! will all those CF weight saving although this is a fully loaded car. I don't think the base 750 of previous generation (F01) weighs more than 4700 lb ...
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ve-test-review

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

I meant 650+ HP is there.. easily... For sure with that power (and torque) and RWD you will have traction issue. no traction issue with that power? you need AWD or rear weight biased car like McLaren or Ferrari
And why do you need speed limiter removal in US? where do you want to go 200 mph? I would like to know so I can go too

Definitely, the M6 coupe did 0-100mph in 8 sec, 0-130mph in 13 sec. in a C/D test, while CTS-V (SAE certified 640HP) did 0-100mph in 7.5 sec. and 0-130mph in 13.6 sec. in the C/D test.

With the M6s and M5s weighting slightly more than the CTS-V, there is no way the S63Tu is making under 600HP at its current form, it has incredible pulling power.

The engine is good enough, just need to find ways to put the power down, and make the handling better. CTS-V apparently is now the best handling car of the group (E63, M5, RS7).

[eleven11]

It's too soon to judge, so I'll trust BMW to produce another formidable vehicle. The competition is producing impressive alternatives to fuel innovation, but it's easy to get complacent when brand-wide sales continue to grow each quarter.

I've really enjoyed my F10. The primary areas I'd like to see advances would be in weight reduction and standing traction. Certainly, an AWD option can solve the traction issue, but that option has it's own negatives. An optional/switchable AWD, or at the very least an intelligent ECU hybrid AWD/RWD system. I understand BMW is proud of their advances in efficiency, but the current "24 mpg" seems impressive enough for a car pushing 600hp, especially when compared to the E60's 11/17 mpg. Point being, I don't feel that further focus on upping the mpg is needed, for this vehicle segment, at this time. Weight reduction is certainly welcomed, and likely trickles down from the CFRP on the G11.

Secondarily, I'd like to see more aesthetic/fascia distinction versus the non-M vehicles. Last, give us an aggressive exhaust note out of the box. I'm not buying an M vehicle to have muffled exhaust notes. The F10 has some great backfire pops and gurgles, but the overall tone is too restrained. I know BMW likes the dual nature of the M5 (luxury and comfort when needed, beast when desired). I've never known someone who prefers the M exhaust to its AMG competitor. At least make it a dynamic system, like the F Type.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by eleven11

It's too soon to judge, so I'll trust BMW to produce another formidable vehicle. The competition is producing impressive alternatives to fuel innovation, but it's easy to get complacent when brand-wide sales continue to grow each quarter.

I've really enjoyed my F10. The primary areas I'd like to see advances would be in weight reduction and standing traction. Certainly, an AWD option can solve the traction issue, but that option has it's own negatives. An optional/switchable AWD, or at the very least an intelligent ECU hybrid AWD/RWD system. I understand BMW is proud of their advances in efficiency, but the current "24 mpg" seems impressive enough for a car pushing 600hp, especially when compared to the E60's 11/17 mpg. Point being, I don't feel that further focus on upping the mpg is needed, for this vehicle segment, at this time. Weight reduction is certainly welcomed, and likely trickles down from the CFRP on the G11.

Secondarily, I'd like to see more aesthetic/fascia distinction versus the non-M vehicles. Last, give us an aggressive exhaust note out of the box. I'm not buying an M vehicle to have muffled exhaust notes. The F10 has some great backfire pops and gurgles, but the overall tone is too restrained. I know BMW likes the dual nature of the M5 (luxury and comfort when needed, beast when desired). I've never known someone who prefers the M exhaust to its AMG competitor. At least make it a dynamic system, like the F Type.

Well written and excellent points.

Unfortunately BMW M has never made an a car with a stock exhaust note that sounds great. Not even the E60 M5 stock exhaust sounded loud enough for the note to be enjoyed. They muffled the V10 so much with its 130lbs exhaust system it was almost counter-productive to the nature of the car.

I really don't sense ///M taking a drastically different direction for the next generations of M5/M6 and M3/M4, even though former Audi leadership is now in charge of ///M. Same as the F generation, their number 1 focus for the next generation of cars is going to be efficiency, with performance coming 2nd and driving enjoyment coming 3rd, just like the F10 M5. I also sense that because of this, the ASD will be returning once again to M cars of the future, which is ridiculous considering so much natural sound can still be extracted from the turbo engine.

I have a strong feeling that the next M5 will be uber luxurious, brimming with technology, unfathomably fast, and have very little visceral excitement. If the BMW M's of today and tomorrow weren't so luxurious as they are and will be, it would almost make more sense to buy a Tesla P90D instead.