Moving on

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by DrewM5

I would disagree. I think there is a market "in the center" as well as to either end of the spectrum. In fact, that is where the M5 came from in the first place.

Yes, there is a market. Always is. Much smaller and leaves people looking for "both" happy but never blown away with either. There are always exceptions and we will hear people say "well I am satisfied" and that is fine and great but mostly it is people defending their cars and justifying their purchases. Get them in a true sports car and they will immediately say to themselves "hhhmmmm...my M5 isn't so sporty" and get them in a pure luxury car and they say "hhhmmm....my M5 isn't so luxurious". It is RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE. It is sacrificing a little of both to suit "needs". That's how it is with any product. You CAN'T please everybody. And that is why NICHE products are sold for more $ ALL DAY LONG. Also why they have such greater owner loyalty.

This is what I do. No amount of second-guessing changes the "polarizing" effect. Would be like me telling a Dr. that "I know you think that staples are right for properly healing this terrible cut but I love how stitches look". I'd be happy looking at those stitches and happy that the cut is closed but after a while I'd be saying "man, I really think a lesser scar would have been great".

This is not a crack on the M5. It is an observation. Easy to see however. For guys/girls who need to tote stuff around but still want power. It is a MIX.

[Pazzo009]

Originally Posted by ColdList

The entire challenge that we see MANY people having now with the M5 is really simple. In marketing, we call it being "in the center of the barbell". It is when your product is neither polarized left or right and it is a mix of "everything" to try to suit a wider audience. Problem is that when you are not focused on one one segment vs the other (for the M5 arguments sake they are "Sporty" and "comfort") you confuse customers and you get discontent, sometimes to small and often to large degrees. It if FINE to go for "sporty" and add a little bit of luxury or vice-versa. Incidentally his is why the 991 is so great. It is sporty with a touch of luxury, this it attracts a wider range than the 997 that had no luxury. Yes, there will be discontentment but to a much smaller degree because deviation form the sporty concept is not so great. The M5 has gone too far towards the middle in an attempt to satisfy everyone. Some people will be fine with it-in fact, MANY will. But there is a lot of chatter amongst consumers (and a lot of brand switching as evidenced on this board alone) due to the fact that luxury buyers aren't getting TOTAL luxury. They are getting a LOT of sport mixed in and sporty buyers are getting a LOT of luxury and added weight (the chief complaint voiced repeatedly on here). It doesn't make the car bad or good. It makes it confusing and causes less interest and second-guessing after the purchase.

[DrewM5]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Yes, there is a market. Always is. Much smaller and leaves people looking for "both" happy but never blown away with either. There are always exceptions and we will hear people say "well I am satisfied" and that is fine and great but mostly it is people defending their cars and justifying their purchases. Get them in a true sports car and they will immediately say to themselves "hhhmmmm...my M5 isn't so sporty" and get them in a pure luxury car and they say "hhhmmm....my M5 isn't so luxurious". It is RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE. It is sacrificing a little of both to suit "needs". That's how it is with any product. You CAN'T please everybody. And that is why NICHE products are sold for more $ ALL DAY LONG. Also why they have such greater owner loyalty.

This is what I do. No amount of second-guessing changes the "polarizing" effect. Would be like me telling a Dr. that "I know you think that staples are right for properly healing this terrible cut but I love how stitches look". I'd be happy looking at those stitches and happy that the cut is closed but after a while I'd be saying "man, I really think a lesser scar would have been great".

This is not a crack on the M5. It is an observation. Easy to see however. For guys/girls who need to tote stuff around but still want power. It is a MIX.

I hear you. But I happen to be one of those few for whom the "mix" of the M5 is pretty spot on. I like to drive, but I have minimal track experience and training and whatever recing events I may do, they will not be in this car. But I still enjoy the power and (relative) agility of this car for a big sedan. maybe if I were a more acomplished "race" driver, the weight of the car and its handilng limitations would bother me.

If I bought a Bently or a Maser, I would have missed the sportiness. If I bout a 458, I would have missed the practicality. So I guess those are my staples and stitches.

I do think there are a lot of folks similar to me who make up the demographic for this car. Probably more than make up the demographic for the 458 or the Huracan.

[hinckley]

Originally Posted by ColdList

The entire challenge that we see MANY people having now with the M5 is really simple. In marketing, we call it being "in the center of the barbell". It is when your product is neither polarized left or right and it is a mix of "everything" to try to suit a wider audience. Problem is that when you are not focused on one one segment vs the other (for the M5 arguments sake they are "Sporty" and "comfort") you confuse customers and you get discontent, sometimes to small and often to large degrees. It is FINE to go for "sporty" and add a little bit of luxury or vice-versa. Incidentally this is why the 991 is so great. It is sporty with a touch of luxury, thus it attracts a wider range than the 997 that had no luxury. Yes, there will be discontentment but to a much smaller degree because deviation from the sporty concept is not so great. The M5 has gone too far towards the middle in an attempt to satisfy everyone. Some people will be fine with it-in fact, MANY will. But there is a lot of chatter amongst consumers (and a lot of brand switching as evidenced on this board alone) due to the fact that luxury buyers aren't getting TOTAL luxury. They are getting a LOT of sport mixed in and sporty buyers are getting a LOT of luxury and added weight (the chief complaint voiced repeatedly on here). It doesn't make the car bad or good. It makes it confusing and causes less interest and second-guessing after the purchase.

I think that this is an exceptionally intelligent perspective. And of course, there is a market at either end as well as in the middle. I'm a business guy and BMW's product marketing guys may know exactly what they're doing. BMW is selling more cars and may now be attracting a wider market. But it's hard to attract a wider market without also losing some other portion of the market. That's what happened to me.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Would be like me telling a Dr. that "I know you think that staples are right for properly healing this terrible cut but I love how stitches look".

You would be surprised how often I have this conversation with my patients!!!

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by DrewM5

I hear you. But I happen to be one of those few for whom the "mix" of the M5 is pretty spot on. I like to drive, but I have minimal track experience and training and whatever recing events I may do, they will not be in this car. But I still enjoy the power and (relative) agility of this car for a big sedan. maybe if I were a more acomplished "race" driver, the weight of the car and its handilng limitations would bother me.

If I bought a Bently or a Maser, I would have missed the sportiness. If I bout a 458, I would have missed the practicality. So I guess those are my staples and stitches.

I do think there are a lot of folks similar to me who make up the demographic for this car. Probably more than make up the demographic for the 458 or the Huracan.

I don't track either but the first time I took an exit ramp fast in my 991 C2S I went "Wow! I thought I took these fast in my M5!".

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by hinckley

I think that this is an exceptionally intelligent perspective. And of course, there is a market at either end as well as in the middle. I'm a business guy and BMW's product marketing guys may know exactly what they're doing. BMW is selling more cars and may now be attracting a wider market. But it's hard to attract a wider market without also losing some other portion of the market. That's what happened to me.

Thank you. They are REALLY expanding product lines to attract this market. Hopefully it continues to work well for them. As a car enthusiast I really wish they wouldn't stop putting an M badge on everything. It takes the exclusivity down a degree or two...or three.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Actor

You would be surprised how often I have this conversation with my patients!!!

Oh for goodness sake. YOU are a doctor?! They must hand those licenses out at the drug store! Hahahahaha! Kidding of course!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Oh for goodness sake. YOU are a doctor?! They must hand those licenses out at the drug store! Hahahahaha! Kidding of course!

Yup; buy one, get one free!!!!

[FLOMACKS]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Yes, there is a market. Always is. Much smaller and leaves people looking for "both" happy but never blown away with either. There are always exceptions and we will hear people say "well I am satisfied" and that is fine and great but mostly it is people defending their cars and justifying their purchases. Get them in a true sports car and they will immediately say to themselves "hhhmmmm...my M5 isn't so sporty" and get them in a pure luxury car and they say "hhhmmm....my M5 isn't so luxurious". It is RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE. It is sacrificing a little of both to suit "needs". That's how it is with any product. You CAN'T please everybody. And that is why NICHE products are sold for more $ ALL DAY LONG. Also why they have such greater owner loyalty.

This is what I do. No amount of second-guessing changes the "polarizing" effect. Would be like me telling a Dr. that "I know you think that staples are right for properly healing this terrible cut but I love how stitches look". I'd be happy looking at those stitches and happy that the cut is closed but after a while I'd be saying "man, I really think a lesser scar would have been great".

This is not a crack on the M5. It is an observation. Easy to see however. For guys/girls who need to tote stuff around but still want power. It is a MIX.

Nailed it. M5 bridging two buyer segments. I bet they did their homework on it though. Lots of quantitate assessments. When it came out it had all the stuff I thought I wanted, which was pretty much everything--which tells you something about the bias in the market analysis. Turns out a car with everything is so heavy they had to put it on the 7 platform.

Got me to buy it though. Funny thing, to your point Cold- when I was getting the 911, half of me wanted to get a 7.

[alexey21]

Originally Posted by DrewM5

I would disagree. I think there is a market "in the center" as well as to either end of the spectrum. In fact, that is where the M5 came from in the first place.

Maybe the older M5 like E39 yes, but not the F10. It tries to hard to accomplish everything but accomplishes little.

[DrewM5]

I think a lot of people would dispute that - and not just the ones who have the insatiable need to justify their purchases. It may accomplish little for you - and I would suggest you not own one - but for me it achieves high scores on many of the points that are important to me. More so than the other options available to me. And that is why I bought it.

Not everyone is happy living in this world of compromise. But then again, not everyone is happy living at the extremes either (GT3RS on one end and Rolls on the other). How many posts have there been bashing the GTR because it is one-dimensional; all performance no comfort?

The M5 is not a car for everyone - or even a car for the masses. There is no right or wrong here. That is why Baskin Robins offers so many flavors and car companies offer so many cars.

At the end of the day, BMW's job is to design a car that it believes has the widest market appeal in the target segment. If this segment was screaming for more performance at the expense of luxury and "extras", unless they are incompetant, that is the direction BMW would move. Keep in mind that this board represents a small slice of the total market and one very slanted to the enthusiast.

If BMW had stripped down the F10 to give lighter weight and better performance, you can imagine all the threads that would have started here with "I can't believe a $100K+ car doesn't have [Fill in the blank]".

[cjackson1906]

Originally Posted by DrewM5

I think a lot of people would dispute that - and not just the ones who have the insatiable need to justify their purchases. It may accomplish little for you - and I would suggest you not own one - but for me it achieves high scores on many of the points that are important to me. More so than the other options available to me. And that is why I bought it.

Not everyone is happy living in this world of compromise. But then again, not everyone is happy living at the extremes either (GT3RS on one end and Rolls on the other). How many posts have there been bashing the GTR because it is one-dimensional; all performance no comfort?

The M5 is not a car for everyone - or even a car for the masses. There is no right or wrong here. That is why Baskin Robins offers so many flavors and car companies offer so many cars.

At the end of the day, BMW's job is to design a car that it believes has the widest market appeal in the target segment. If this segment was screaming for more performance at the expense of luxury and "extras", unless they are incompetant, that is the direction BMW would move. Keep in mind that this board represents a small slice of the total market and one very slanted to the enthusiast.

If BMW had stripped down the F10 to give lighter weight and better performance, you can imagine all the threads that would have started here with "I can't believe a $100K+ car doesn't have [Fill in the blank]".

DrewM5 makes a lot of good points and I agree with him. Some of us value balance and truthfully, balance is relative. I feel like the M5 is the perfect balance, but others may not...especially if you loved/owned/worship previous M3 coupes or anything small/light with 2 doors. I know I'm in the minority on this site, but I liked the size of the M5 since I'm over 6'7" and the Alpina B7 felt too big (and kind of stuffy) to me. Hell, I gotta do yoga before I can get into any of these P-cars everyone raves about...

[DrewM5]

Originally Posted by cjackson1906

Hell, I gotta do yoga before I can get into any of these P-cars everyone raves about...

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by cjackson1906

I'm over 6'7" and the Alpina B7 felt too big (and kind of stuffy) to me. Hell, I gotta do yoga before I can get into any of these P-cars everyone raves about...

Actually the 991 would fit you PERFECTLY.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by hinckley

But I'm not a track guy or a boy racer. I'm not looking for a toy.

I think this makes the perfect case for the Porsche. The BMW M4 IS for the track enthusiast and boy racer, while the Porsche is not. The Porsche is more gentlemanly, more refined, more better, and more everything, including performance. Same thing with the M5. It's not a track car, it's not for boy racers, it's for all the people I just stated the Porsche was for, but with more room. Sure you can track a new 991 C2S, but most people don't. Most people even track their 981 Cayman S's I'm sure. I like Porsche's and one day hope to own a GT3 or that new 981 GT4 coming out in a couple of years. Hinckley's not making a bad move at all just a move in a different direction.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by hinckley

That's what happened to me.

Good points and discussion Cold.

But let me ask you this just for fun.

What would have made you stay in the F10 M5 or a car like it? M6 Gran Coupe, Audi RS7, Mercedes E63-S, Panamera Turbo S or even GTS?

Would you have kept it if it had a nice BMW ///M Developed V12, with less than 4,000lbs weight and more luxury? Or less luxury and more feel?

What bothered you the most about the F10 M5? What did you like best about your Carrera S? I'm just curious that's all.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by DrewM5

Yes and no. Yes to the lower weight and no to the apparent resistance to AWD. At the end of the day, BMW is going to make these decisions based on the broadest market they can reach. Without doubt, that will result in tons of compromises and will morph what was once a very unique vehicle to something more mainstream. It will have wider appeal to the masses and less appeal to the more fanatical folks (like us on this board). The fact that just about every high end manufacturer now offers directly competing alternatives to the M5 (Damn, even Hyundai offers a high performance version of their mid sized sedan), only makes it more so.

You may have missed this quote "Speaking to Auto Motor und Sport, BMW M GmbH President Friedrich Nitschke said the current model is “suffering”"

[hinckley]

Originally Posted by DrewM5

If BMW had stripped down the F10 to give lighter weight and better performance, you can imagine all the threads that would have started here with "I can't believe a $100K+ car doesn't have [Fill in the blank]".

That's precisely the issue. The M5 does in fact need to be "stripped down" and therefore unacceptable. But it should never have needed to be stripped down in the first place.

When the history of the F10 M5 (or any F10 for that matter) is written, I think everyone will say that failure was derived from the fact that it started with the 7 Series platform. So it was already too big and too heavy when it was conceived.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Good points and discussion Cold.

But let me ask you this just for fun.

What would have made you stay in the F10 M5 or a car like it? M6 Gran Coupe, Audi RS7, Mercedes E63-S, Panamera Turbo S or even GTS?

Better connection to the road. Gran Coupe would not do it. Can't speak to the others as I have not driven them. The M5 felt very top heavy the minute we got the F12 M6 cab. The M6 was far more fun to drive. Even though I bought it for my wife, I ended up parking the M5 and drove the M6 a lot. I let the wife drive the M5 if that tells you anything.

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Would you have kept it if it had a nice BMW ///M Developed V12, with less than 4,000lbs weight and more luxury? Or less luxury and more feel?

Lower weight would have definitely helped. No more luxury. I just need a little. For example, the 997 was far too simple. The M5 might be a tad overkill (I don't need heavy doors that close themselves or butt massagers in my seats).

Originally Posted by RPiM5

What bothered you the most about the F10 M5? What did you like best about your Carrera S? I'm just curious that's all.

Again, it is a matter of gaining perspective by driving different cars. If you remember, it took me a full two months to even like the Porsche. I was so caught up in the mash and go driving in the M5 and that rush of boost that I would leave the dealer wondering what all the fuss was about Porsche. I was very let down. I had always thought of Porsche as this "wow" car. Then I went one day and the dealer tossed me the keys to the C2S and let me take it. I immediately went down a long straight and then a moderately sweeping curve and was amazed that I didn't have to fight the car. So, I went back through the curve several more times, each time pressing the gas harder to the floor and each time ending with a bigger smile on my face. 30 mins. in and I was so enthralled by the sound of that motor behind me and the sporty feel that I had to have it. Just as with any car, it turned out I had a preference issue with the Porsche. I had been primarily driving the C4S on test drives. It never did it for me. The planted feeling was amazing but it wasn't as lively to me as the C2S. Once I did a launch in the C2S I figured out that I just needed to be on the right Porsche and the C2S was the "winner winner chicken dinner"-lol

Dave, as you know, I also have a crazy habit of switching cars up. So, it was also just a matter of change. I do look back now though with clear perspective and I'd never buy an M5 again unless they really got back to it being a sportier or racier feel. It just is too numb for me. It is heavy. It feels more disconnected than I prefer and it just seems like a big sedan. I really like more of a driver's car. Again though, this is purely personal preference.

[hinckley]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Good points and discussion Cold.

But let me ask you this just for fun.

What would have made you stay in the F10 M5 or a car like it?

RPi, I know you didn't direct your question to me, but I'd answer by saying that the F10 M5 is too heavy, too long, and with too big a turning radius. Did I mention it's too heavy??

I know every car's next generation is bigger and heavier, but this one just threw me over the top. There's just not a chassis that can compensate for the weight of the F10. I'll get flamed for this comparison, but the C2S that I'm buying weighs less than 3100 pounds. The M5 weighs almost FIFTY PERCENT more!

On a separate note, the steering on the MY13 M5 was terrible. That's grossly unforgivable for any BMW, never mind an M. I've driven MY14s - both comp and non-comp - and there's no question that it's now greatly improved.

[DrewM5]

Originally Posted by hinckley

That's precisely the issue. The M5 does in fact need to be "stripped down" and therefore unacceptable. But it should never have needed to be stripped down in the first place.

When the history of the F10 M5 (or any F10 for that matter) is written, I think everyone will say that failure was derived from the fact that it started with the 7 Series platform. So it was already too big and too heavy when it was conceived.

You do recognize that what you categorize as a "need" is your opinion and not indeed a statement of necessity. While this may be "unacceptable" to you, it is still acceptable to others who have a different value set as to the pros and cons of the various extras that add weight. Interesting that you already conclude that the F10 will go down in history as a failure. maybe you can use that crystal ball of yours to make some stock picks for me.

We get it. You don't like this car and it was not the right car for you. There is nothing wrong with that and I can completely understand why you have made that conclusion for yourself. But that does not make your conclusion an objective truth for eveyone else.

I remember E60 guys that stripped down their cars to reduce weight and through in Recaros in the front and no seat in the back. Worked like a charm in reducing weight. The problem is that they started with the wrong canvas. Don't buy an M5 - or any other mid to large size super sedan - looking for a light and agile car. If you order the 22 ounce ribeye at Delk Frisco's, don't expect it to eat like a turkey burger.