Still want an EV? (NO POLITICS)

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by carseatsm5

Hertz Global Holdings, Inc. has made the strategic decision to sell approximately 20,000 electric vehicles from its U.S. fleet, or about one-third of the global EV fleet.

These vehicle dispositions, which were initiated in December 2023 and are expected to take place in an orderly fashion over the course of 2024, will cover multiple makes and models.

The company said that it expects to reinvest a portion of the proceeds from the sale of EVs into the purchase of internal combustion engine vehicles to meet customer demand.

This should set a precedent as it dawns on other car hire firms also.

[KRS_SN]

In the US, the used price of Tesla Model X, the worst performer, dropped 36 per cent compared to a year earlier. While a second-hand Model X would fetch $75,798 in December 2022, by last month this had fallen to $48,511 for an equivalent vehicle.

Other best sellers fell sharply, including Ford’s F-150 Lightning pick-up truck, which dropped 30 per cent from $90,245 to $62,540, and the Chevrolet Bolt, which fell 32 per cent from $26,325 to $17,901.

In the UK, resale values for the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe — both older models — fell by a quarter, while the Porsche Taycan fell 21 per cent and the BMW i4 dropped 18 per cent

The resale value of best-selling electric vehicles fell almost a third in the US last year, amid a wider slowdown in the growth of EVs across the developed world.

The second-hand value of the top-10 selling battery cars in the US, including models from Tesla, General Motors and Ford, fell an average of 28 per cent in 2023, data from CarGurus and compiled by HSBC show.


In the UK, the value of used EVs fell about a fifth in the UK, far higher than the overall market where resale values dropped only 3.7 per cent, according to the bank which referred to Auto Trader data.

https://www.ft.com/content/d8ffbdd9-...a-f22095083714

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by carseatsm5

Hertz Global Holdings, Inc. has made the strategic decision to sell approximately 20,000 electric vehicles from its U.S. fleet, or about one-third of the global EV fleet.

These vehicle dispositions, which were initiated in December 2023 and are expected to take place in an orderly fashion over the course of 2024, will cover multiple makes and models.

The company said that it expects to reinvest a portion of the proceeds from the sale of EVs into the purchase of internal combustion engine vehicles to meet customer demand.

As someone who thoroughly enjoys his Tesla as a DD I still wouldn’t have much interest in renting an EV nor even a Tesla specifically. If the place I was staying had level 2 charging easily available then I might consider it. For some of my types of trips out west with long drives and being in the middle of nowhere then zero interest in renting one.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

In the US, the used price of Tesla Model X, the worst performer, dropped 36 per cent compared to a year earlier. While a second-hand Model X would fetch $75,798 in December 2022, by last month this had fallen to $48,511 for an equivalent vehicle.

Other best sellers fell sharply, including Ford’s F-150 Lightning pick-up truck, which dropped 30 per cent from $90,245 to $62,540, and the Chevrolet Bolt, which fell 32 per cent from $26,325 to $17,901.

In the UK, resale values for the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe — both older models — fell by a quarter, while the Porsche Taycan fell 21 per cent and the BMW i4 dropped 18 per cent

The resale value of best-selling electric vehicles fell almost a third in the US last year, amid a wider slowdown in the growth of EVs across the developed world.

The second-hand value of the top-10 selling battery cars in the US, including models from Tesla, General Motors and Ford, fell an average of 28 per cent in 2023, data from CarGurus and compiled by HSBC show.


In the UK, the value of used EVs fell about a fifth in the UK, far higher than the overall market where resale values dropped only 3.7 per cent, according to the bank which referred to Auto Trader data.

https://www.ft.com/content/d8ffbdd9-...a-f22095083714

To be fair this is all TESLA'S doing. They had huge margins, were being threatened so dropped prices in a huge way and this has had a massive ripple effect.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by gblansten

As someone who thoroughly enjoys his Tesla as a DD I still wouldn’t have much interest in renting an EV nor even a Tesla specifically. If the place I was staying had level 2 charging easily available then I might consider it. For some of my types of trips out west with long drives and being in the middle of nowhere then zero interest in renting one.

Agreed. I enjoy my EV DD, particularly because my use case is well defined. When you're out of town, spontaneity increases. EV's would make for a terrible rental. Hybrid or PHEV, fine, but no EV. That was a bad business decision. I know people who justify an EV only household, noting that they'll just rent when they need to go on a road trip. Imagine renting and showing up and they hand you a tesla...

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

To be fair this is all TESLA'S doing. They had huge margins, were being threatened so dropped prices in a huge way and this has had a massive ripple effect.

Many people did buy at those inflated rates before they dropped the price. They've shot their own kind in search of maintaining market share to keep the share price high.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dfox

Agreed. I enjoy my EV DD, particularly because my use case is well defined. When you're out of town, spontaneity increases. EV's would make for a terrible rental. Hybrid or PHEV, fine, but no EV. That was a bad business decision. I know people who justify an EV only household, noting that they'll just rent when they need to go on a road trip. Imagine renting and showing up and they hand you a tesla...

And that's the point, what happens if legislation is enacted that says Hertz can nolonger rent ICEV to customers? Part of the green initiative.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

And that's the point, what happens if legislation is enacted that says Hertz can nolonger rent ICEV to customers? Part of the green initiative.

I think you guys worry about things getting worse, and as we get closer to these deadlines, I think things will be backed off. Ultimately the technology has to actually deliver for individual people to live their lives, and it cannot be ridiculously prohibitive.

[Car-Addicted]

Reality Check: I guess when you have a 38 Billion dollar deficit
Newsom cuts $2.9 billion from California climate programs, delays an additional $1.9 billion
January 11, 2024
Yet the proposed budget includes notable trims for zero emission vehicle programs, including $600 million in delayed funds for the Clean Cars 4 All equity project and grants for electric fueling infrastructure.
https://news.yahoo.com/newsom-cuts-2...110017152.html

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

To be fair this is all TESLA'S doing. They had huge margins, were being threatened so dropped prices in a huge way and this has had a massive ripple effect.

Yep, and Tesla has probably cut as far as they can go and it's still not going to work. Tesla will remain the premier EV manufacturer, but they are going to be facing some hard times as will most every other automaker that is trying to sell EV models in the US. A majority of US buyers are no longer convinced that an EV is a reliable mode of transportation for their only car in most areas of the US.

A friend of mine just a bought a new Model Y to replace his totaled Audi E-tron SUV. He was bragging to me that the Model Y has better range than the Audi.....yet in the same breath he tells me the Model Y goes down to around a 20% charge when he drives ~110 miles round trip each day for work on a "full" charge (must be charged every night). He hopes it will get better once temps get above 60 degrees We get 5 months of sub 60 weather in Kansas City. Maybe the last 20% charge lasts way longer than anticipated, kinda like my M235 telling me i need to fill up when it goes just below 1/4 tank, yet I could still easily go another 80 miles on the highway LOL

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Yep, and Tesla has probably cut as far as they can go and it's still not going to work. Tesla will remain the premier EV manufacturer, but they are going to be facing some hard times as will most every other automaker that is trying to sell EV models in the US. A majority of US buyers are no longer convinced that an EV is a reliable mode of transportation for their only car in most areas of the US.

A friend of mine just a bought a new Model Y to replace his totaled Audi E-tron SUV. He was bragging to me that the Model Y has better range than the Audi.....yet in the same breath he tells me the Model Y goes down to around a 20% charge when he drives ~110 miles round trip each day for work on a "full" charge (must be charged every night). He hopes it will get better once temps get above 60 degrees We get 5 months of sub 60 weather in Kansas City.

The next 7 days in Edmonton, Alberta. Canadian government is mandating no more ICE vehicles after 2035. Good luck with that.

[Murf the Surf]

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

And that's the point, what happens if legislation is enacted that says Hertz can no longer rent ICEV to customers? Part of the green initiative.

It's all a learning game man. No way EV development would have come as far as it has without some sort of looming deadline. Pretty sure every one of the EV mandates will be pushed back and/or modified before the effective dates. Government standard. Aim high.

EV isn't the devil like it's made out to be on here. It also shouldn't be the only solution for vehicle propulsion either. There's a middle ground between the extremists on both sides, this thread just seems to be full of people on the anti-ev extremist side...

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

The next 7 days in Edmonton, Alberta. Canadian government is mandating no more ICE vehicles after 2035. Good luck with that.

how do people even leave the house in those ridiculous temps let alone want to have to drive somewhere


we are so spoiled here in So Cal

[Car-Addicted]

Hertz trims EV fleet due to high repair costs, reinvests in gas-powered vehicles
The company claimed that the collision and damage repair costs associated with EVs are more significant than with gas-powered vehicles. In a recent Securities and Exchange Commission filing, Hertz wrote, “Expenses related to collision and damage, primarily associated with EVs, remained high in the quarter.”

During a recent analyst call, Hertz CEO Stephen Scherr stated, “Collision and damage repairs on an EV can often run about twice that associated with a comparable combustion engine vehicle.”

“Remember, in the likes of GM and other [automakers], there’s decades of establishment of a broad national parts supply network,” Scherr continued. “There’s an aftermarket of parts that is there, that is less mature, obviously, in the context of Tesla.”

He noted that Hertz is in “very direct engagement” with Tesla regarding parts procurement.

“The MSRP declines in EVs over the course of 2023, driven primarily by Tesla, have driven the fair market value of our EVs lower as compared to last year, such that a salvage creates a larger loss and, therefore, greater burden,” Scherr said.

Seems like Hertz is figuring out what many of us know years ago.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dfox

It's all a learning game man. No way EV development would have come as far as it has without some sort of looming deadline. Pretty sure every one of the EV mandates will be pushed back and/or modified before the effective dates. Government standard. Aim high.

EV isn't the devil like it's made out to be on here. It also shouldn't be the only solution for vehicle propulsion either. There's a middle ground between the extremists on both sides, this thread just seems to be full of people on the anti-ev extremist side...

If there was profit in EV without an artifical market, no looming deadline would be necessary. EV has been a mandate by CARB since 1990 and before that, brewing in the CARB and then Federal emissions regulations enacted beginning in 1968.

As a business that has product development cycles measured in decades, flipflopping around with regulations that mandate the elimination of your core product line is not an economically sustainable situation. This thread is full of business and engineering professionals who understand the economic risks mandated EV will place on society.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Hertz trims EV fleet due to high repair costs, reinvests in gas-powered vehicles
The company claimed that the collision and damage repair costs associated with EVs are more significant than with gas-powered vehicles. In a recent Securities and Exchange Commission filing, Hertz wrote, “Expenses related to collision and damage, primarily associated with EVs, remained high in the quarter.”

During a recent analyst call, Hertz CEO Stephen Scherr stated, “Collision and damage repairs on an EV can often run about twice that associated with a comparable combustion engine vehicle.”

“Remember, in the likes of GM and other [automakers], there’s decades of establishment of a broad national parts supply network,” Scherr continued. “There’s an aftermarket of parts that is there, that is less mature, obviously, in the context of Tesla.”

He noted that Hertz is in “very direct engagement” with Tesla regarding parts procurement.

“The MSRP declines in EVs over the course of 2023, driven primarily by Tesla, have driven the fair market value of our EVs lower as compared to last year, such that a salvage creates a larger loss and, therefore, greater burden,” Scherr said.

Seems like Hertz is figuring out what many of us know years ago.

According to Hertz: higher damage-repair costs and higher depreciation.

"Hertz is selling 20,000 electric vehicles to buy gasoline cars instead
CNN - Jan 11, 2024
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/11/b...ing/index.html
Hertz, which has made a big push into electric vehicles in recent years, has decided it’s time to cut back. The company will sell off a third of its electric fleet, totaling roughly 20,000 vehicles, and use the money they bring to purchase more gasoline powered vehicles.
Electric vehicles have been hurting Hertz’s financials, executives have said, because, despite costing less to maintain, they have higher damage-repair costs and, also, higher depreciation.
“[C]ollision and damage repairs on an EV can often run about twice that associated with a comparable combustion engine vehicle,” Hertz CEO Stephen Scherr said in a recent analyst call.
And EV price declines in the new car market have pushed down the resale value of Hertz’s used EV rental cars.
“The MSRP declines in EVs over the course of 2023, driven primarily by Tesla, have driven the fair market value of our EVs lower as compared to last year, such that a salvage creates a larger loss and, therefore, greater burden,” Scherr said.
Simply put, people are generally willing to pay a certain amount less for a used car than for a new one. As the price of new car goes down, that also pushes down what people are willing to pay to buy a used one.
Hertz expects to take a loss of about $245 million due to depreciation on the EVs, an average of about $12,250, per vehicle the company said in an SEC filing.
While Hertz isn’t directly pointing a finger, it appears that Tesla has been largely to blame.
Tesla makes up about 80% of Hertz’s EV fleet, and, altogether, EVs make up about 11% of Hertz’s total rental fleet. Tesla has been aggressively cutting its vehicle prices leading other automakers to do the same for their electric vehicles. When automakers reduce the prices of new vehicles, that pushes down the value of those models in the used car market, causing rapid depreciation.
For rental car companies like Hertz, which sell lots of vehicles in the used car market, depreciation has a big impact on their business, and is a major factor when deciding which cars to have in their fleets.
Being a relatively new company, Tesla doesn’t have as many replacement parts at hand and trained repair technicians that other car companies have, Hertz executives have said, making it costly and time-consuming to get repairs.
Remember, in the likes of GM and other [automakers], there’s decades of establishment of a broad national parts supply network’” Hertz CEO Stephen Scherr said in a recent analyst call. “There’s an aftermarket of parts that is there, that is less mature, obviously, in the context of Tesla.”
Besides costing more to repair when they’re damaged in a crash, Scherr also said, EVs are also getting in more crashes. Again, Teslas, which make up 80% of Hertz’s EV rental fleet, are mostly the problem in both these areas, he has said.
“Our work with Tesla is to look at the performance of the car, so as to lower the risk of incidence of damage,” he said, “and we’re in very direct engagement with them on parts procurement and labor and the like.”
Hertz sells its used vehicles at auctions as well as directly to customers on its Hertz Car Sales website."

[M5Rick]

The EV dream is slowly crumbling bit by bit with unsustainable repair and replacement costs which Hertz are already acting on.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

how do people even leave the house in those ridiculous temps let alone want to have to drive somewhere


we are so spoiled here in So Cal

You are spoiled. I was in Edmonton about 10 years ago in February, a bunch of us were going out for dinner and drinks at a restaurant across the street from our hotel, with the windchill factor it was -59C. There are no words to describe how cold that is. We live in Southern Ontario and it usually doesn't get much below -15C in the winter, sometimes a cold snap down to -20C. I'm not going to say you get used to it but you adapt. Now that I'm retired we adapt by spending Jan, Feb & March in Florida.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If there was profit in EV without an artifical market, no looming deadline would be necessary. EV has been a mandate by CARB since 1990 and before that, brewing in the CARB and then Federal emissions regulations enacted beginning in 1968.

As a business that has product development cycles measured in decades, flipflopping around with regulations that mandate the elimination of your core product line is not an economically sustainable situation. This thread is full of business and engineering professionals who understand the economic risks mandated EV will place on society.

I'm not a business or engineering professional, not even an amateur but what I do have is good old fashioned common sense and I can understand the enormous problems these EV mandates create for manufactures, distributors, governments, electric utilities and consumers.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

You are spoiled. I was in Edmonton about 10 years ago in February, a bunch of us were going out for dinner and drinks at a restaurant across the street from our hotel, with the windchill factor it was -59C. There are no words to describe how cold that is. We live in Southern Ontario and it usually doesn't get much below -15C in the winter, sometimes a cold snap down to -20C. I'm not going to say you get used to it but you adapt. Now that I'm retired we adapt by spending Jan, Feb & March in Florida.

What area of FL?

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by gonzo

What area of FL?

We wanted to stay in St. Petes this year but couldn't find a place so we're in Tampa.